Elder Scrolls Why Morrowind is a bad RPG

[laclongquan]

Plentiful Loot is not bad because we ALL know we all are OCD who are compulsioned to loot them all.

Plentiful Loot is only bad when the game can not provide tool to ease the process.

My example is Fallout New Vegas: there's perk that allow illuminating stuffs that worth notice, loot and potential loot, so to speak. Search and Mark, for one. And Spotting perk which red-silhoutete potential hostiles which does help in case of loot.

By that criteria, indeed, Morrowind's plentiful loot is bad. You are just NOT equipped to loot them all.

 

[Ereshkigal]

People with OCD shouldn't play RPGs, for their own good.

 

[Egosphere]

Both games had awesome soundtracks.

No idea about Daggerfall but Morrowind ost is actually shit and vastly, vastly overrated, apparantely based on pure nostalgia and the lack of people's (let alone nerd teens) taste, as usual. Ta da da, ta da da, my ass. In general it's extremely bland and le epic at the same time which is annoying when mostly all you do is walking from place to place or whacking some mudcrab. Even more importantly, it barely encapsulates the very praised setting: the red mountain, the sandstorms, the native dark elves and even the prophecy themes don't sound right to me at all.

Yeah, tracks like this one start out great, with a tranquil but somewhat lonely quality to them, but then they insist on having to swell into something more grand and exciting, ruining the whole feeling. Seems like the composer didn't understand what the game would play like and was making music around the story descriptions and a simple idea of a fantasy scenario. The game needed a lot more of, and more variety in the ambient tracks.


Also agree that the game should have gone for a more exotic soundtrack in keeping with the setting, something similar to the Lustmord soundtrack for Planescape, something that captures both the tribal and science-fiction qualities of Vvardenfell, something a little more dirty. Would have a been a great juxtaposition to have the serene tracks playing while wandering around the small coastal villages, then something like this plays when you enter a dungeon of the Sixth House:

was eliminating angel a track made for PST before Lustmord left the project?

 

[Jaedar]

Both games had awesome soundtracks.

No idea about Daggerfall but Morrowind ost is actually shit and vastly, vastly overrated, apparantely based on pure nostalgia and the lack of people's (let alone nerd teens) taste, as usual. Ta da da, ta da da, my ass. In general it's extremely bland and le epic at the same time which is annoying when mostly all you do is walking from place to place or whacking some mudcrab. Even more importantly, it barely encapsulates the very praised setting: the red mountain, the sandstorms, the native dark elves and even the prophecy themes don't sound right to me at all.

I think the soundtrack is good, but not great. It's biggest problem is not quality though, but quantity. So many of the tracks will just be on endless repeat that you get sick of them way before finishing the game.

 

[agentorange]

Both games had awesome soundtracks.

No idea about Daggerfall but Morrowind ost is actually shit and vastly, vastly overrated, apparantely based on pure nostalgia and the lack of people's (let alone nerd teens) taste, as usual. Ta da da, ta da da, my ass. In general it's extremely bland and le epic at the same time which is annoying when mostly all you do is walking from place to place or whacking some mudcrab. Even more importantly, it barely encapsulates the very praised setting: the red mountain, the sandstorms, the native dark elves and even the prophecy themes don't sound right to me at all.

Yeah, tracks like this one start out great, with a tranquil but somewhat lonely quality to them, but then they insist on having to swell into something more grand and exciting, ruining the whole feeling. Seems like the composer didn't understand what the game would play like and was making music around the story descriptions and a simple idea of a fantasy scenario. The game needed a lot more of, and more variety in the ambient tracks.


Also agree that the game should have gone for a more exotic soundtrack in keeping with the setting, something similar to the Lustmord soundtrack for Planescape, something that captures both the tribal and science-fiction qualities of Vvardenfell, something a little more dirty. Would have a been a great juxtaposition to have the serene tracks playing while wandering around the small coastal villages, then something like this plays when you enter a dungeon of the Sixth House:

was eliminating angel a track made for PST before Lustmord left the project?

Yeah. You can hear a kind of condensed version it used in one of the early pre-release trailers for Planescape. From what I remember reading he composed music specifically for Planescape, then when they didn't use it he expanded the stuff he had made into longer songs to release for himself, so it's more like Eliminating Angel and other tracks on Metavoid were made out of the stuff he had composed for Planescape.
timestamped to the most similar part

 

[Vic]

I mean, I could've made more compelling arguments and contrast it with other action RPGs that do it in my opionion better but I was here mostly to rant.

Granted, I'm a bit OCD when playing games as I want to see all the content which includes loot. Also my criticism was about the endgame where I was zooming through the map and dungeons at 130 speed, killing everything in 1-2 hits while doing a 360 in the air and looting everything with a gold/weight ratio of over 500 and dumping in it on the floor and on top of chests in my house in Ghorak manor. Dungeons became basically loot pinhatas/lootboxes that I would quickly run to see what loot I can get.

I have to look into a combat mod which makes the combat more difficult so du geons would acutually take some effort and I wouldn't be showered with loot. But honestly using mods to fix a game...

Meanwhile I was arguing with people who said things like this:

Travelling from one settlement to another was like going from planet to planet. It took forever and felt like a real journey. And every small battle along the way was risky, even a tiny worm could beat the shit out of you.

Poor guy probably hasn't even finished the MQ yet, which by the way if you do, you'll get a nice ring with a permanent Night Eye effect which is supposed to help you explore all those remaining dungeons, which is nice.

 

[Wunderbar]

whoever made this trailer is a big fan of Alien.

 

[laclongquan]

I mean, I could've made more compelling arguments and contrast it with other action RPGs that do it in my opionion better but I was here mostly to rant.

Granted, I'm a bit OCD when playing games as I want to see all the content which includes loot. Also my criticism was about the endgame where I was zooming through the map and dungeons at 130 speed, killing everything in 1-2 hits while doing a 360 in the air and looting everything with a gold/weight ratio of over 500 and dumping in it on the floor and on top of chests in my house in Ghorak manor. Dungeons became basically loot pinhatas/lootboxes that I would quickly run to see what loot I can get.

I have to look into a combat mod which makes the combat more difficult so du geons would acutually take some effort and I wouldn't be showered with loot. But honestly using mods to fix a game...

Using mods to fix a game is standard procedure these days~ The problem is when EVEN using mods cant fix a game.

Biggest problem of power bloat in Morrowind is that you dont have good mods to deal with that.

In contrast, FNV did have such things:
Too much money without ways to spend it? Claim the Mojave allow you investing lots of money to occupy minor areas with NPCs in the name of your chosen. Like, if you want to spend squads of Enclave to occupy Bonnie Spring, you can.

Too much weapons without hard target to satisfy your veteran combat urge? Harder Than (among other) mod that can up the difficulty of hostiles

 

[Funposter]

I mean, I could've made more compelling arguments and contrast it with other action RPGs that do it in my opionion better but I was here mostly to rant.

Granted, I'm a bit OCD when playing games as I want to see all the content which includes loot. Also my criticism was about the endgame where I was zooming through the map and dungeons at 130 speed, killing everything in 1-2 hits while doing a 360 in the air and looting everything with a gold/weight ratio of over 500 and dumping in it on the floor and on top of chests in my house in Ghorak manor. Dungeons became basically loot pinhatas/lootboxes that I would quickly run to see what loot I can get.

I have to look into a combat mod which makes the combat more difficult so du geons would acutually take some effort and I wouldn't be showered with loot. But honestly using mods to fix a game...

Using mods to fix a game is standard procedure these days~ The problem is when EVEN using mods cant fix a game.

Biggest problem of power bloat in Morrowind is that you dont have good mods to deal with that.

In contrast, FNV did have such things:
Too much money without ways to spend it? Claim the Mojave allow you investing lots of money to occupy minor areas with NPCs in the name of your chosen. Like, if you want to spend squads of Enclave to occupy Bonnie Spring, you can.

Too much weapons without hard target to satisfy your veteran combat urge? Harder Than (among other) mod that can up the difficulty of hostiles

MWSE Harder Barter, MDMD. Maybe Morrowind Anti-Cheese. There you go, fixed most of the problem.

 

[Vic]

My last playthrough of FNV was with the JSawyer mod which made combat more difficult and rewarding, I was hoping there would be something similar for morrowind. I'm taking a break from morrowind now but I'm at the start of Tribunal DLC and there enemies are surprisingly strong, which makes the sewers feel like a dangerous place, just weird that there is such a wide gap between that and the golden saints/ascended sleepers which are way too easy.

I will be continuing my playthrough soon though, maybe in a few days as the difficulty spike made the gameplay actually fun again, I was just too burned out to dive into the DLC immediately at that point.

Also I wanted to do the Mages guild and Imperial Legion factions in the base game but I don't see me doing that without a combat mod as basegame has become way too boring and unrewarding due to the powerbloat.

 

[Funposter]

I'm taking a break from morrowind now but I'm at the start of Tribunal DLC and there enemies are surprisingly strong, which makes the sewers feel like a dangerous place, just weird that there is such a wide gap between that and the golden saints/ascended sleepers which are way too easy.

Tribunal and Bloodmoon are explicitly designed for characters who have cleared the main quest and several vanilla factions, probably around Level 30+ and the endgame content for both realistically being balanced for Level 40+. Saints and Sleepers are balanced for Level 20 per the levelled lists, but obviously the devs didn't anticipate how geared up most players would be by that point. The expansion content DOES take that into account, but it means the design is pretty degenerate and HP bloat-y.

 

[laclongquan]

I mean, I could've made more compelling arguments and contrast it with other action RPGs that do it in my opionion better but I was here mostly to rant.

Granted, I'm a bit OCD when playing games as I want to see all the content which includes loot. Also my criticism was about the endgame where I was zooming through the map and dungeons at 130 speed, killing everything in 1-2 hits while doing a 360 in the air and looting everything with a gold/weight ratio of over 500 and dumping in it on the floor and on top of chests in my house in Ghorak manor. Dungeons became basically loot pinhatas/lootboxes that I would quickly run to see what loot I can get.

I have to look into a combat mod which makes the combat more difficult so du geons would acutually take some effort and I wouldn't be showered with loot. But honestly using mods to fix a game...

Using mods to fix a game is standard procedure these days~ The problem is when EVEN using mods cant fix a game.

Biggest problem of power bloat in Morrowind is that you dont have good mods to deal with that.

In contrast, FNV did have such things:
Too much money without ways to spend it? Claim the Mojave allow you investing lots of money to occupy minor areas with NPCs in the name of your chosen. Like, if you want to spend squads of Enclave to occupy Bonnie Spring, you can.

Too much weapons without hard target to satisfy your veteran combat urge? Harder Than (among other) mod that can up the difficulty of hostiles

MWSE Harder Barter, MDMD. Maybe Morrowind Anti-Cheese. There you go, fixed most of the problem.

You dont understand what I were saying~ I said "deal" with it, doesnt mean "cut off" or "delay". The difference is exquisite to behold. To Morrowind fanbois, anyway. IT generally go over your heads.

Say FNV. When there's too much money to be earned, we dont actually need to cut off or delay money earning, because that result still come. Gamers alway gather too much money at near end game. What we need is ways to deal with those massive amount of money. FNV has Claim the Mojave, which mean burning money to set down certain amount of NPC at certain locations with certain behaviors. Or various improved locations (casino, hotel, player house ) mods. That's the meaning of "dealing" with money.

Does Morrowind has any way to deal with the massive amount of money, or soul stones, that players are inevitably gathering at middle stage of games? I dont believe there's any.

 

[Funposter]

Does Morrowind has any way to deal with the massive amount of money, or soul stones, that players are inevitably gathering at middle stage of games? I dont believe there's any.

Yes, MWSE Harder Barter. Google it.

 

[Ryzer]

Nothing can fix Morrowind, it is fundamentally broken to the core. You can just apply bandages to it, hoping that it will definitely fix it but for that you would need to make interesting quest-lines instead of FedEx quests, proper dialogue system, completely rework the banter , the combat system, the AI and remove the static world. In other words, making a new game out of it.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

I wonder how Morrowind actually calculates the "best attack" when that option is selected. In Daggerfall, a thrust is low damage but high accuracy, a slash is standard damage and standard accuracy, a downwards chop is high damage but high accuracy, and a diagonal chop is very high damage but very low accuracy. Which attack is best depends on your current skill with the weapon and the situation. So how could there be a best attack type?

 

[MWaser]

I wonder how Morrowind actually calculates the "best attack" when that option is selected. In Daggerfall, a thrust is low damage but high accuracy, a slash is standard damage and standard accuracy, a downwards chop is high damage but high accuracy, and a diagonal chop is very high damage but very low accuracy. Which attack is best depends on your current skill with the weapon and the situation. So how could there be a best attack type?

You are putting way too much thought into it.
Morrowind's weapons all have different damage per slash/chop/stab and "always select best attack" just changes which of these is used each time because the weapon's damage in that form of attack is the highest.
It's a difficulty/convenience/accessibility option that makes it easier by virtue of not forcing you to move in a specific way to use a specific attack.

 

[laclongquan]

Does Morrowind has any way to deal with the massive amount of money, or soul stones, that players are inevitably gathering at middle stage of games? I dont believe there's any.

Yes, MWSE Harder Barter. Google it.

Are you playing dumbass or for real?

Another, new, way to deal with money, another way to make it useful again, is DIFFERENT from making harder barter check or increase price level~ MWSE Harder Barter is not a new way...
..
.
Aaaaaah, I see. You are avoiding the answer, which ofcourse is that MW dont have another, different, way. :meh:

 

[Vic]

I have learned from posting in this thread that it is impossible to have a factual discussion with morrowind fanboys, they see the game through rose tinted glasses and the game has no faults.

 

[d1r]

they see the game through rose tinted glasses and the game has no faults.

Yeah, I think that is what the term "fanboy" actually implies.

 

[MWaser]

>people aren't agreeing with my criticism on something
>must be delusional fanboys

Yes, it cannot possibly be that people have different opinions, different priorities, different preferences, different interpretations of the same aspects. Must be everyone being delusional and biased.

 

[Jaedar]

I have learned from posting in this thread that it is impossible to have a factual discussion with morrowind fanboys, they see the game through rose tinted glasses and the game has no faults.

MW has plently of flaws, you are just failing to pinpoint any of them.

 

[Vic]

>people aren't agreeing with my criticism on something
>must be delusional fanboys

Yes, it cannot possibly be that people have different opinions, different priorities, different preferences, different interpretations of the same aspects. Must be everyone being delusional and biased.

I voiced objective shortcomings of the game that were met with what I can only describe as fanboyism. The main point was my concern that the excessive and hidden loot is used to psychologically manipulate players and get them hooked on gameplay. The response to that was that I should just ignore the loot, even though the game clearly wants you to find all of said loot. The first quest that sends you in a dungeon for the dwemer puzzle box conditions the player that he should look very closely everywhere. The intent of the developers is plain as day, it's the appliction of Skinner's Box to hook teens and young adults into the gameplay loop. Yet, the fanboys seem to have no problems with that. I'm not even going to go into the other broken systems (disposition, taunt (you can kill every NPC with taunt and nobody will give a shit, I killed the Duke of Vvardenfell while his royal guard just stood there), the above discussed lack of use for money (basically only use is training, which is another broken system)).

Here is what Riddler said a few minutes ago in another thread but that also applies here:

I would say the primary factor is poor design. You know are rewarded for doing things in some poorly defined way and the only way to know for sure is to vacuum clean the map and/or use a walkthrough. The worst expression of this are "true endings", which even the suspicion of can drive people to degenerate gaming behaviours.

A good way of doing secrets is gothic 1/2, they are in somewhat logical places and the loot is usually worthwhile.

A poor way is having "secrets" everywhere, in places you can't see, for which there is no logic and mountains of garbage you have to sort through to find the occasional worthwhile thing. This leads to mindless vacuum behaviour.

The flaws of this game are quite frankly plain to see to all but the few fanboys in this thread who keep defending it. Many other people have voiced the same criticism that I have, even Bethesda was aware and fixed most of the broken systems in the follow up Elder Scrolls games. Yet, to the fanboys the obvious improvements are decline. (Fast travel with 1 click instead with 5, how is making an action easier for the player and save him time which would otherwise be spent navigating a menue decline? No logic behind the arguments)

 

[Funposter]

Are you playing dumbass or for real?

Another, new, way to deal with money, another way to make it useful again, is DIFFERENT from making harder barter check or increase price level~ MWSE Harder Barter is not a new way...
..
.
Aaaaaah, I see. You are avoiding the answer, which ofcourse is that MW dont have another, different, way. :meh:

Harder Barter uses a logarithmic scale which DOES make items more expensive, but is primarily focused on making it so that the player receives less gold from SELLING and increases the effect of Mercantile on both buying and selling. The effect of this is that a single good loot drop doesn't break the economy, and all services (particularly training) become functionally more expensive. Combined with MDMD, the inevitable midgame power threshold problem doesn't arise, because the player isn't strong enough to tackle a lot of the challenges and can't BECOME strong enough by spamming trainers. There are still plenty of uses for gold, you simply have far less of it.

MWSE is a new way also in the sense that it is compatible with any mod that retains vanilla price values ala Tamriel Rebuilt. Old .esp level economy mods that relied on directly editing item values couldn't do this, because new items from mods would break the economy.

The first quest that sends you in a dungeon for the dwemer puzzle box conditions the player that he should look very closely everywhere. The intent of the developers is plain as day, it's the appliction of Skinner's Box to hook teens and young adults into the gameplay loop.

The Skinner box criticism is valid with Oblivion and Skyrim (also Daggerfall!) where loot is levelled and random, but doesn't really apply to Morrowind's handplaced loot. Most of the dungeons are worthless to rummage through, so the average playthrough is far more focused on finishing quests and advancing through factions. The Skinner box only works if the box has a treat each time - in Morrowind, the box is often empty.

 

[Sarathiour]

The first quest that sends you in a dungeon for the dwemer puzzle box conditions the player that he should look very closely everywhere.

How fucking delusional are you ? It's place on the middle of a closet, so a perfectly normal place for it to be. Would you prefer for it to be put on a pedestal after the boss in a linear dungeon ?

The main point was my concern that the excessive and hidden loot is used to psychologically manipulate players and get them hooked on gameplay.

the above discussed lack of use for money

You're contradicting yourself and can't even realize that, if money is useless, looting is de facto also useless.

(Fast travel with 1 click instead with 5, how is making an action easier for the player and save him time which would otherwise be spent navigating a menue decline? No logic behind the arguments)

The logic is immersion and not being able to randomly move anywhere you want at anytime you want, and it also provide an incentive to find the stronghold index.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

the game clearly wants you to find all of said loot

See, this is where you're retarded.