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Elder Scrolls Why Morrowind is a bad RPG

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
8,893
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Eastern block
And, correct me if I am wrong, but having loot is a standard practice for ANY RPG. So I don't see why Morrowind should be shy of putting its loot in places, especially when it makes sense.

Because he is retarded

No one is forcing you to loot in any game
 

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
1,179
I can kind of relate with Vic here. I started hating the Yakuza games because I felt obliged to do all the sidequests and so I have spent over a dozen hours grinding hostesses to the point where I would firebomb RGG Studios before I did that retarded minigame again. But that's a game that intentionally encourages a completionist mindset because of all the checklists. Same shit with Ubisoft games. Morrowind, on the other hand, makes things more mysterious. You can explore, and sometimes you'll find a good item, but you can also easily miss lots, and that's expected by the designers. I feel like Vic was playing Morrowind with the UESP open so he could look up every dungeon he's in to see where all the unique items are.
 

Ryzer

Prophet
Joined
May 1, 2020
Messages
1,917
Morrowind has classes but none of them matter at all because at the end of the game you become a jack-of-all-trades whatever you do and nothing forbid you from using a skill. In fact only Race is important.

Morrowind has many dungeons, but they are rarely used by the side quests, most of the time you wonder why they are here because it looks almost identical to another dungeon I visited earlier, and the level design is simply abysmal for many of them. Goodbye labyrinthic dungeons, welcome linear dead end

Morrowind has many NPCs, but very few of them actually say something useful.

Morrowind offers choices, but none of them really matters, whatever you do.

Morrowind has many monsters types but the AI is brain-dead and rarely use spells or tactics.

Morrowind has many different diseases but they all become useless after completing 40% of the main quest and drinking the potion.

Morrowind never uses its content effectively.

 
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Ryzer

Prophet
Joined
May 1, 2020
Messages
1,917
Ryzer seems intelligent at first glance, but he is really a useless sack of horse shit.
Tell me in what area does Morrowind shine?
The level design? Laughable
The Combat? Terrible
The AI? Hilariously bad
RP elements? There is none, your class doesn't impact your play-style ( it does only in the beginning)
The Open-World ? Static but pretty
The Quests? FedEx
The NPC? Wikipedia copy-paste
The world economy? Awful.
 
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MWaser

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
591
Location
Where you won't find me
What is with Gothic fags in particular always having such a massive hate boner for Morrowind?

It's like every time I read retarded takes about "omg Morrowind so bad, [list of cherry pick flaws of Morrowind and only giving comparisons with [other game] in which comparisons [other game] wins]", it's basically always Gothic.

They're completely different games you massive spergs, and you can enjoy both separately for different reasons (like I do, I am a big fan of Gothic as well as Morrowind) or only enjoy one of them if the other doesn't strike your fancy, but these massive lists of cherry picked aspects that ignore any positives of whatever game you're talking about is just disingenuous as fuck.
 

Ryzer

Prophet
Joined
May 1, 2020
Messages
1,917
They're completely different games you massive spergs
They are both action-RPG and open world, they are similar in what they provide: exploration, discovery, be a hero...
Gothic is good at showing how outdated Morrowind truly is.
I guess you can still admire the number of unique items and the spell system in Morrowind... It's one of the rare area where Morrowind leads.
I guess the world of Morrowind is pretty.
I feel like Morrowind is the Skyrim of 2002.
 

Hag

Savant
Patron
Joined
Nov 25, 2020
Messages
782
Location
Breizh
Codex Year of the Donut
have fun by just slow walking from town to town, enjoy the music and look at giant mushrooms.
That is something that Morrowind does extremely well and is part of its huge appeal. If you don't enjoy a walk between places, ready for the unknown, then you will miss one of the reason of its enduring success.

To address some of your points about the pointless loot, remember that when Morrowind was out, there was no UESP wiki around, you were on your own. No way to even know there were some unique loot around, so if you happened to stumble upon it was awesome. I was on some Morrowind forum at the time and remember the huge number of people asking for help on finding the Dwemer puzzle box. Have you felt the feeling of tension when you prepare to explore the weird ruins in search of some fucking artifact, no knowing what to expect, what it will look like ? No clues, only a mission ? Or did you powergamed and looked for clues online ? It really changes the way you look at the game.
 

Vic

Educated
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
636
I was on some Morrowind forum at the time and remember the huge number of people asking for help on finding the Dwemer puzzle box.
Oh, really? But somehow according to the morrowind simps here I am retarded because I made the following statement:
The first quest that sends you in a dungeon for the dwemer puzzle box conditions the player that he should look very closely everywhere.

The response to that was:
How fucking delusional are you ? It's place on the middle of a closet, so a perfectly normal place for it to be. Would you prefer for it to be put on a pedestal after the boss in a linear dungeon ?

This is the level of delusional fanboyism I am dealing with in this thread.

You are like the third of fourth person to accuse me of using a wiki, I NEVER do that while playing any game, and I don't see what I said that would imply that. If anything, using a wiki would be counter to my argument, as that would defeat the skinner box mechanism? If you know where all the loot is that removes the randomized reward effect of the skinner box.

If you naturally find some epic loot in ancient dwemer ruin #213 then from that point onward you will always wonder if in that next dungeon you just encountered might not be some epic hidden loot too. Maybe all these people calling me a retard are the same people who went on forums crying they couldn't find the dwemer box, and looking shit up themselves. because if you play the game properly you HAVE to look everywhere closely, but somehow I'm a retard for not using a wiki or going on forums for help and actually putting in 100+ hours to explore the game world naturally. Makes you wonder...
 
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laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,869,770
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
You... You check every barrel, sack and crate?
You don't?

:shredder:
The only thing make looting in Morrowind unfun, is that MW lack options to make it a fun and easy activity.

Take FNV for example. As a later game, it develop perks to help players looting things easier. Search and mark is ESSENTIAL~

It really cant be helped, because MW is a way earlier game. You can say MW, and later F3, provide the experience (or the lack thereof) that lead to this development in FNV.
 

Hag

Savant
Patron
Joined
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Messages
782
Location
Breizh
Codex Year of the Donut
Tell me in what area does Morrowind shine?
It lets you fuck around on a geographic scale without getting too much on your way, while providing decent sprawling backstory, unique visuals, various systems to discover and/or abuse and enough content to drown into. Also a certain feel-good vibe.

You are like the third of fourth person to accuse me of using a wiki, I NEVER do that while playing any game, and I don't see what I said that would imply that. If anything, using a wiki would be counter to my argument, as that would defeat the skinner box mechanism? If you know where all the loot is that removes the randomized reward effect of the skinner box.

If you naturally find some epic loot in ancient dwemer ruin #213 then from that point onward you will always wonder if in that next dungeon you just encountered might not be some epic hidden loot too. Maybe all these people calling me a retard are the same people who went on forums crying they couldn't find the dwemer box, and looking shit up themselves. because if you play the game properly you HAVE to look everywhere closely, but somehow I'm a retard for not using a wiki or going on forums for help and actually putting in 100+ hours to explore the game world naturally. Makes you wonder...
Glad to hear you did not use the wiki. I actually mostly agree with your point on loot but you may be overthinking it. I have probably searched all the funeral urns in the game but never thought too much about it. It's simply filler content on a whole island scale. And even if there are no unique artifact around, you usually find some scrolls, potion, ingredient, skill book or other useful item in every dungeon so your curiosity is pleased more often than not, and since you have to come back to town frequently to unload your shit or clear quests you actually have to take dungeon crawling breaks.
 

Vic

Educated
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
636
I have probably searched all the funeral urns in the game
Holy shit dude I gave up on that after 4-5 tombs as they had only dust in them. Kudos to you but you kinda prove my point that Morrowind creates an unhealthy compulsion in players.
 

Hag

Savant
Patron
Joined
Nov 25, 2020
Messages
782
Location
Breizh
Codex Year of the Donut
Kudos to you but you kinda prove my point that Morrowind creates an unhealthy compulsion in players.
I actually wanted to know out of curiosity whether you could find one urn with no bone dust. Since I did not find any it doesn't really fit the Skinner system. Also I had fun doing it, so it wasn't unhealthy from my point of view.
You know, I agree it's all artificial and idiotic in the end but that's loot for you. When I think about M&M3, Underrail, Stalker games, or even Tomb Raider to only talk about the few on top of my head, that's the same deal.
 

Vic

Educated
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
636
I actually wanted to know out of curiosity whether you could find one urn with no bone dust. Since I did not find any it doesn't really fit the Skinner system. Also I had fun doing it, so it wasn't unhealthy from my point of view.
Hey man, no I think they all had just 1 dust in them, so yeah probably because it didn't fit the skinner system I gave up on that too, but you persevered like a chad on them. And yeah, the thing about fun, a lot of people play MMOs and mobile games and they THINK they have fun, which, you can say they have because their brain releases dopamine, but it's really just gambling, it's not a healthy sort of fun. I spent hours in Morrowind looting all kinds of shit and when I was burned out in the end I was like holy shit this game is just a fucking casino simulator, and I wanted to see what the codex has to say about it and I was shocked that nobody called the game out on it.

Again, lots of people have "fun" wasting away years of their life in MMOs and the like because they are hooked to the dopamine drip feed. I just feel very strongly against the use of the skinner box in games.

 

Vic

Educated
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
636
Worst part is that morrowind was played by kids on the xbox, and you can't tell me they didn't get fucking addicted to the loot and pulled all-nighters. And luj1 stop being a little passive aggressive bitch and rating all of my posts with butthurt or retard without adding anything to the discussion.
 

Sarathiour

Cipher
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
2,468
The only discussion going on here is between you and the voice in your head telling you to open the box.

"AAAAARGH YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, I NEED TO OPEN EVERY CRATE FOR A FORK AND FIVE GOLD COIN, HOW COULD TODD HOWARD EVER DO THIS TO ME, DAMN YOUUUUUUUUUUU"
 

MWaser

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
591
Location
Where you won't find me
They're completely different games you massive spergs
They are both action-RPG and open world, they are similar in what they provide: exploration, discovery, be a hero...
Gothic is good at showing how outdated Morrowind truly is.
I guess you can still admire the number of unique items and the spell system in Morrowind... It's one of the rare area where Morrowind leads.
I guess the world of Morrowind is pretty.
I feel like Morrowind is the Skyrim of 2002.
On giving you the benefit of a doubt of not trying to argue in bad faith to make your point, here are a few comparison points for what Gothic 2 and Morrowind do well/badly in separate aspects or their merits:
Gothic 2:
Very solid for its time in implementation, the unique AI per enemy combined with responsive controls for player movement make fighting most enemies in 1vs1 very unique per enemy time, spontaneous, easy to grasp and sensible. You can, with proper use of the action-based gameplay systems, beat most enemies even above your power level by playing it smart.

Morrowind:
Very barebones and simplistic, you don't make many choices in the action-aspect of combat in the game, but you still have a certain merit of control due to moving away from enemy attacks, controlling your movement to spare fatigue. There is a basic level of player involvement over complete non-action games and you still influence the outcome, but it's not very fluid nor unique per encounter basis.

Conclusion: Basically a clear winner in G2's favor here.
Gothic 2:
%chance to hit, janky auto-aim, janky animations, pretty shit

Morrowind:
Straight trajectory arrows, famously common missing everything because also uses %chance to hit in calculations, fairly useless in most cases

Conclusion: They're both shit. Morrowind is a bit less insulting because arrows don't randomly turn around in mid-air to hit their targets, but balance wise at least in Gothic 2 you can use it as a damage build in spite of bad mechanics.
Gothic 2:
An interesting exponentially scaling system when it comes to circles of magic, the damage/disable spells are very versatile in presentation and decently well balanced. The lategame spells are extremely satisfying to use, including if you use them early in their 5 mana scroll versions to deal with specific threats (more on that later). Summons are satisfying because you can keep a lot of them at the same time and the AI functions in combat with a lot of units. Lacks worthwile utility magic.

Morrowind:
The basic combat spells and spellmaking allow for a lot of very interesting combinations, however most of the time there isn't a large incentive to use ALL the different variants. Balance is all over the place as a result of the freeform system. Summons are useful, but janky because of the limitation on summon numbers and generally slow combat mechanics, so the incentive for them is somewhat limited. Utility spells really shine for mobility/buffs/combat control/world interaction and would be the main selling point on magic for most characters, as a utility thing and for efficiency.

Conclusion: They're both really good for different reasons. Gothic 2 focuses a lot more on detailed and interesting combat magic, and the encounters in the game are somewhat balanced around this power, so you get to see how it interacts with the world very naturally. In Morrowind, the combat magic is useful, and can still carry a build, but its balance is all over the place and you need to watch over yourself - relying primarily on magic can be a big mistake for combat. However Morrowind's magic also serves very important utility purposes for interacting with the world, and even in combat the other kinds of utility and buff spells you can cast cast vastly alter outcomes of fights
Gothic 2:
There's not much to say in this regard here. Magic scrolls are the worthwile mention, because due to the NotR balancing making them all cost 5 mana, you can save very powerful scrolls of 6th / 5th circle spells for singular encounter-winning moments, and the way they're laid out and planned in game they create a very good resource for this purpose. Also applies to early-game use of powerful "transform into creature" scrolls that can single-handedly deal with many encounters. Commendable.

Morrowind:
A real gem of this game. The variety of powerful spellcasting items (including those you can self-enchant) create the bulk of the basic gameplay interaction for various character types, offering buffs, mobility, utility and direct combat applications with attack-spell items and scrolls and the famous on-hit enchantments (that can carry very powerful effects, even in the premade items you can find/purchase). Proper use of the magic items, potions and scrolls is heavily encouraged and adds a lot of versatility to how you approach basic combat encounters throughout the whole game.

Conclusion: While the Gothic 2 NotR useage of scrolls in general is a stand-out example of how to add great single-use consumables into a game in a satisfying format that many games could inspire from, it works primarily due to its linear and limited format. It's not a bad thing in of itself, however wouldn't really make sense in Morrowind. Fortunately Morrowind's own very detailed and well made magic item system allows for very well made insertion of the magic system inside the already existing other gameplay mechanics, both in-combat and out of combat.
Gothic 2:
Individually, all the systems are somewhat functional (with the ranged combat being the weakest), but the main downside is that the in-general well made melee combat mechanics, which normally function great in single combat, really struggle to deal with combat situations against multiple enemies in a satisfactory way, due to camera target lock jank inhibiting your movement severely and the ability to only hit the enemy you're currently locked on with the attacks, the fights against multiple enemies turn almost exclusively into stat-checks and lose much of the prior action RPG appeal in control. You still have ways of settling the issues, but they rely either on having the stats, having specific items or might be somewhat abusive of the AI. They work decently well, but these moments really off some of the big flaws of the system - especially on a pure/primary melee build.

Morrowind:
The freeform movement, the existence of movement-modifying effects and spells and the freeform implementation of the various spellcasting mechanics that you can very freely use in the middle of your default melee/ranged combat allow for fights against bigger groups of enemies to flow decently well and provide an interesting challenge that you can tackle in many ways (with the help of your scrolls/magic items/potions) so while preparation is still key rather than action elements, there's dozens of potential ways to approach these encounters. What is normally jankiness (due to simplicity) of its basic action elements actually work for the benefit of the game in these larger more complex circumstances, at least when the unit pathfinding AI cooperates decently well.

Conclusion: Morrowind has a bit of an advantage due to the amount of mechanics allowing for more potential strategies, but for all it's worth Gothic 2 still holds itself together and provides the players with resources to manage most of its combat situations in a fair way.
Gothic 2:
The game is linear, but its individual parts are open enough to leave a lot of exploration to be done, and small enough that it never feels bloated with pointless content. Virtually all locations exist for a deliberate purpose - either gameplay secrets or story/quest focal points - the game adheres very closely to the "rule of narrative efficiency" (also gameplay efficiency) in this regard. You have different ways to progress your character, but they're mostly simplistic - allowing for better balancing of the content, but not a lot of individual variety/combinations. The linear placement or gating of certain items/armors/spells exist to help balance the power level of the character (or, in the case of powerful weapons, their stat requirements being almost unattainable in NotR even though you can buy some of the most powerful weapons in the game from the very beginning) but it doesn't leave too much room for maneuver. It's a calculated experience, with a degree of complexity that's appreciable to fans of RPGs where they still have to think and make decisions unlike linear, simplistic action games, which makes it very enjoyable but puts it at a spectrum that will be similar for many people in execution. And exploration wise, the early game involves a lot of backtracking due to very few fast-travel options, while later your methods of teleporting around with the teleporter stones - it's simple enough, functional, and generally not too annoying with the backtracking.

Morrowind:
The game encompasses the open-world aspect of completely no fucks to give, up to and including in its storytelling - the lack of immediate urgency is palpable in the design, as the quests are deliberately set up to generally allow for you to take them slowly, the world is built to be fairly large, but immersive - many NPCs, locations (including dungeons) exist as a presentation of scope - they're not meant to be explored in detail or even thought about that much, they just exist to feel "real" in some way by being too large to see everything that's being offered. Powerful objects that may be randomly hidden in some of these dungeons exist as a rare bonus to add mystery to the world and make people wonder just how many things may be hidden, but they're not really intended to be found (and the game doesn't necessitate you to, your power level is always adequate without finding extra overpowered things on top of everything). The progression as a result is completely imbalanced, because you can take your own path without really that much direction and find, as a result, that you've gone to places completely beyond what you can deal with, or, on the contrary, you will have made yourself very powerful in your explorations and then mostly find things that cannot stand up to you. In a sandbox fashion, you're mostly making your own entertainment that depends on the way you approach the game, which is understandably boring and unappealing to many people, but the freeform approach lets everyone interested take a unique approach to it and see different results many times. The way the world is interconnected is well made too, as you learn to use different methods of fast travel to improve your experience of travelling across the world and learn your own "shortcuts" with the use of Mark/Recall/intervention spells and the fast travel services.

Conclusion: It's impossible to compare these aspects directly. Gothic 2 is a much more balanced, structured experience which provides fun gameplay in a palpable way, but with various jank and flaws along the way. Morrowind, meanwhile, throws you into the world of large possibilities and asks you to find your own fun in the structure. It offers many things in this regard that Gothic 2 can't offer, but you have to know what you're looking for in order to really enjoy it. It rewards creativity more and it rewards exploration more, and due to the scope of both mechanics (for creativity) and the world (for exploration) it makes this experience different for every person, and varying much between playthroughs even for the same person playing it multiple times. Gothic 2 has quite a few available gameplay styles, but in general they will fall into a few paradigms and then be very similar within those paradigms, as the possibilities are fewer.
 

barricade

Novice
Joined
Jun 19, 2022
Messages
70
just found an incredible RANDOM CONTAINER LOOT on nexus: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/51275

the description says: "All containers in the game have had their loot made random. Who knows what you'll find in that urn? Scrib jelly or Gold Brand?"

i'm gonna try it now and hope for awesome stuff!
 

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