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Game News WTF - Pillars of Eternity II is apparently getting a turn-based mode

Riddler

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I think this comes down to player skill to great degree. Are there major reactive elements in games like CS or Dota? Absolutely, but how does one react to things successfully? By planning and predicting enemy actions.

Playing purely reactively is the realm of the bad to mediocre player. The good player is always planning.

That most people can't manage to play and think at the same time is a whole other matter of course and most people play both the mentioned games as an almost purely reactive experience (oh no! They ganked my lane! How could one ever have predicted this?!).

I get what you're saying and agree to a point, but I still believe there is a significant difference here.

Yeah, virtually every game will require some level of tactics and strategy. In fighting games, for example, when choosing a specific character, you need to be aware of his moves, the range of the punchs an kicks, the priority of his attacks (which attacks cancel certain other attacks), and so on. A good Street Fighter player will not simply push the buttons faster, and will not only respond to the enemy's attacks, but he will intentionally try to direct the fight to a more advantageous situation for him, in addition to analyzing the way his enemy will act based on his choice of character and moves. This same principle applies to shooting games, in relation to positioning, map knowledge and awareness, weapons choice and many other things. Rapid reflexes only take you up to a point.

Even so, the fundamental difference of all these action games is that their strategy and tactics are also reactive based. You may have a bigger specific plan in your mind, but being able to change and adapt on the fly is what characterizes a good player. You actually have dozens of plans and assumptions about the flow of the game and you are adapting your strategy depending on the direction the events are taking. Taking DOTA as an example, your game plan will change a lot depending on the items your opponent chooses, the way he plays and who will be in the same lane as you. And all of this information may change from occurring.

And this holds true for both multiplayer and singleplayer games in most cases. In fact, it's the multiplayer aspect that ends up blurring the lines to some extent - and perhaps it deserves a greater reflection, but it's not the point that we are discussing here.

Turn-based games, specifically single-player ones, are quite similar to puzzles. Obviously they are puzzles with bigger "borders" and pieces that aren't so defined, but usually, the combat is a scenario where there are specific solutions. A good fight isn't usually one where you play and adapts your decisions at every turn, but one in which you have a bigger plan and execute it with precision (sometimes praying that the RGN's gods will not fuck you). The greatest satisfaction in a turn-based game is to put together a strategy for the whole fight and see it to perfection. And, like in every puzzle, once you find "the solution" to it, you have an answer that you can use every time in the future. You can then try to find other answers, since sometimes the games is open enough for this, but a strategy that worked once will work 95% of the time, in the same situation.

So the kind of satisfaction you get out of the game, and especially the kind of thinking and strategy you use in a turn-based game is by nature quite different from the kind you use in a real-time game. Most games require thought and strategy, but not all require the same kind.

My point is that one isn't inherently more strategic or tactical than the other (although single player action games seldom have much strategy or tactics involved).

Furthermore, reaction based gameplay is hardly the sole purview of RT games, any multiplayer game is reactive. Chess is highly reactive even though you obviously must have various plans to deal with whatever the opponent chooses to do if you play a remotely competitive opponent. I don't agree that seeing a strategy bear out to its perfection is the most satisfying part of chess either, it's the adaptation of the strategy to the specific realities of a particular game that is interesting. Finding a new path out of a situation where your previous strategy failed is very satisfying.

Each to their own suppose.

Edit: This is also why I kind of got bored with both the pillar games gameplay. It is a puzzle that you essentially solve by level 6-7 and which solutions become trivial to execute by level 10-12 (for the *vast* majority of cases). I realize that there are multiple solutions to the combat "puzzle" but when I find one and never need to change it I lose interest. This is why I feel that immunities and hard counters is an absolute must in these kind of games, if the AI can't adapt its strategy, at least force me to do it.
 
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Darkforge

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If this happens I might finally play this franchise. (So yeah, for the first one too please.) At this point I really can't stand RTWP combat.
 

Serious_Business

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I don't know any video game that reaches the complexities of chess. Ironically, it's mostly because video games handle far too much parameters to allow strict calculations while playing ; they are not perfect information games. They usually include an element of randomness, as well. This poses a situation where an AI will usually be easily mastered in a turned based video game - in chess, it's quite the opposite. All that randomness and complexity is not really manageable by a computer. Chess isn't so much a puzzle either, although every position can be considered to be a puzzle - but the static element to the problem solving is constantly being revised at every move. In a video game, I suppose that the problem solving is rather minimal. It takes a different form ; in the better tactical games, like X-Com, Jagged Alliance or Battle Brothers (fuck you), the strategic layer and tactical battles could be compared to the positional and tactical elements of chess. In chess, when your position is good, tactics flow more or less naturally ; it's very hard to brute force a tactic, a "plan", unless you can calculate very wildly. Something similar could be said about a tactics game : "plans" can play out themselves when you figure out the situation - but you're never in a situation where forces are quite equal. You always want to be a in a superior position before engaging in tactics ; otherwise, you depend on luck. Skill rarely has anything to do with any of it. The moment of skill, of tactics, is always fairly short, and always a big risk. In chess, when you're in a worst position, you usually resign the game... because it means you lost a tactic.

You could go on making these comparisons. You see players comparing chess and tactical games, but you have to wonder why. In the end, chess is much more like a sport than a "game" : it requires a lot of training, concentration and technical skills, and it's inherently an interaction with a strict set of rules. Ironically, this makes it more similar to action based games, which are beginning to be considered to be sports as well. The idea that these two things would be strictly different is strictly temporal in nature - one would be "action", the other "turned based" - one in time, the other out of time - but all action takes place in time. As chess is being played quicker and quicker, it makes it clearly more "reactive", pattern-based. The last world championship was decided on short games - this is revealing of something. In the end, you have to wonder what exactly is the "pure" moment of chess, that one wants to conserve in video games or indeed, in chess itself - as it was once played in strict classical times, or even in correspondence. The moment of "pure thinking", non-reactive thinking, out-of-time thinking, is purely nonsensical, even though in chess, it can become an extremely abstract, almost mathematical exercise.
 

Darkforge

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Some stuff about chess vs video games

This will be an unpopular opinion around here for obvious reasons. But I would argue fighting games in particular Tekken or Virtua Fighter are actually borderline more complicated than chess, against a good human opponent. They share a lot of similarities competitively except there are no turns (actually there kind of is.) and you can move all your pieces at once. I play Chess and both the aforementioned games and they all have virtually an unlimited ceiling for improvement.
 

AwesomeButton

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Quillon

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sstacks

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Incline news of the century

mcB59mD.jpg
 

Theldaran

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If this happens I might finally play this franchise. (So yeah, for the first one too please.) At this point I really can't stand RTWP combat.

I can't see how they are turning the boring, trite, annoying combat (that gives NO EXPERIENCE) into something enjoyable with TB. It will only be more sluggish and more of a chore.

POE are glorified (bad) visual novels where the combat only serves as a way to extend play hours.
 

Abu Antar

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This was all Josh's doing. He wants to make a turn-based game. Feargus is not interested. Josh leaked this and expected some hype. He got it. Now, the ball's in Feargus' court.
 

Kz3r0

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Tim Cain didn't have shit to do with this. It's all Josh Sawyer.

Although interestingly, this system is very different from the one in the PnP prototype except for the same AP mechanic.
Bullshit, when mindx2 intervied the Obsidian crew at Pax East 2015 Tim Cain expressly pointed out that converting RTwP into TB could be easily accomplished and he was ignored by the others, this is all Tim.
 

Roguey

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Bullshit, when mindx2 intervied the Obsidian crew at Pax East 2015 Tim Cain expressly pointed out that converting RTwP into TB could be easily accomplished and he was ignored by the others, this is all Tim.
Tim's way too busy co-directing his own game to fool around with this mess.
 
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This was all Josh's doing. He wants to make a turn-based game. Feargus is not interested. Josh leaked this and expected some hype. He got it. Now, the ball's in Feargus' court.

I don't know if Feargus is pushing this or not but he probably thought it was a good idea and approved it. Aside from the fact games like nu X-Com and and Divinity: Original Sin (and Fire Emblem, realistically) have cultivated significant interest in turn-based games among casuals/console players, *any* kind of major reworking or rebuild can be used as a marketing premise for an all-platforms relaunch.

Saving a flop by relaunching it with added and improved features is a proven concept at this point.
 

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