Preview Yet another Fallout 3 preview

[elander_]

Lol, i should have seen that coming from the creators of Oblivion.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

"Once at the bomb, he tries to use it and a big warning flashes that his skills are insufficient to even interact with it, and has to take some Mentats that he found in the mailbox earlier to boost his intelligence and thus his technical skills (no negative effects from using these drugs are seen)."

Translation: "You are still not drunk enough to ride this baby".

 

[Brother None]

- You can choose to detonate the bomb BUT would be unable to do so if you lack certain skill

That's a great progress over Oblivion. This time skills mean anything. But that's what every crpg should do.

From the NMA preview:

"Once at the bomb, he tries to use it and a big warning flashes that his skills are insufficient to even interact with it, and has to take some Mentats that he found in the mailbox earlier to boost his intelligence and thus his technical skills (no negative effects from using these drugs are seen)."

Well, keep in mind Pete Hines did stress to me that the PC build is very specifically for demo purposes: pumped up APs and resistances, and probably a skill level that's just below the requirements for the bomb, hence being able to skip it with Mentats.

Fallout had similar aides, though I can't recall if Mentats also raised all int-related skills a bit. Probably so.

I think they've spoken on drugs and addictions more since. They're being vague about it, but it looks like there are some negative effects. Ask Ausir.

 

[Aditya]

If you remove the shit-tainted glasses off your eyes, perhaps you can see things for what they actually are. There was certainly more info available regarding it. Try to be up-to-date when you want to discuss stuff.

Yes i saw your Desslock quote. Now try removing your hype shit-tainted glasses and go play Fallout to see what real choices are.

Thats not the point we were discussion upon. You wanted more details on Megaton questline and claimed it never came, so I told you to read more leaving aside your prejudice about Bethesda.

Its very clear from above text that:
- You can choose to detonate the bomb
- You can choose NOT to detonate the bomb

ha ha ha ha ha boy you made me laugh.

Quoting me out-of-context isnt going to help. Besides, I already said that outcomes are fixed but there is choice in how you advance.

- You can choose to detonate the bomb BUT would be unable to do so if you lack certain skill

That's a great progress over Oblivion. This time skills mean anything. But that's what every crpg should do.

Hmm. So first you assume that there arent any RP elements coz "hey its Oblivion with guns!" and now when you have contradicting facts you suddenly say "oh, but every cRPG should have those!" are you happy or disappointed?

- You can choose NOT to detonate the bomb AND inform sheriff about it

Brilliant so the only difference between this quest and an Oblivion quest is that skills mean something and you can inform someone else of what is going to happen. It's still a black and white quest with bare choices that pale in comparison to Falllout. If this is the best example they could come up with then is a very mediocre example.

Perhaps. I never compared this to FO quests anyways.

Now when this was presented to Codex, people said this is "hype". And so when someone was asking why they arent showing anything related to role-playing, I pointed out that even if they do, people are anyways going to dismiss it as 'hype' and PR bullshit.

So we have to agree with you and think this is a great example of choices of consequences or you will say we don't care?

Its just an example which was lost in denial. I am not stating it superiority over anything.

The C&C indicated in the above example clearly surpasses anything presented in Oblivion. Surely you are not dumb to realize that?

Oh i see you think we are talking about Oblivion 2 and not Fallout 3. I thought the Fallout before the 3 would be enough to clue you in but apparently that wasn't enough. You really are dumb.

Dont be such an idiot. Remember again that I am not discussing FO vs Oblivion here.

 

[DefJam101]

Perhaps. I never compared this to FO quests anyways.

Uhm, yes you did?

If you're going to give one-sentence responses don't expect anything better in return.

Dont be such an idiot. Remember again that I am not discussing FO vs Oblivion here.

...

The C&C indicated in the above example clearly surpasses anything presented in Oblivion. Surely you are not dumb to realize that?

Yes. You are..

 

[Aditya]

Umm, it was

The C&C indicated in the above example clearly surpasses anything presented in Oblivion. Surely you are not dumb to realize that?

And not, clearly surpasses anything presented in Fallout

 

[Vault Dweller]

@ BN:

I've seen it mentioned in several magazines that Mentats can be used to pump up your INT to help you handle things that require high brain power and tech skills. Now, of course, trusting what some dumb article says is a risky business, but considering how broken MW/OB systems were and how easy it was to make stats/skills/combat useless with simple spells and potions, I wouldn't be surprised if FO3 follows the same trend.

I'd say that Bethesda sees skill requirements as "your skill is too low; now cast a spell / drink a potion / pop some pills to beat the check!"

 

[Brother None]

I've seen it mentioned in several magazines that Mentats can be used to pump up your INT to help you handle things that require high brain power and tech skills.

That's what Pete/Todd told us. We didn't get to see the actual stat shift, but it appears to be how it works.

Now, of course, trusting what some dumb article says is a risky business, but considering how broken MW/OB systems were and how easy it was to make stats/skills/combat useless with simple spells and potions, I wouldn't be surprised if FO3 follows the same trend.

Hmmm, that might well be true. Didn't think of it like that.

 

[Aditya]

I'd say that Bethesda sees skill requirements as "your skill is too low; now cast a spell / drink a potion / pop some pills to beat the check!"

Kind of like using "Blood Buff" discipline in Vampire-Bloodlines??

 

[Zeros]

I'd say that Bethesda sees skill requirements as "your skill is too low; now cast a spell / drink a potion / pop some pills to beat the check!"

Kind of like using "Blood Buff" discipline in Vampire-Bloodlines??

At least there was a side effect: the hit on blood (which was the game's 'scarce' resource).

Knowing Beth, you'll probably end up with eleventidy thousand mentats, and if there's no 'bad' consequences for using the drugs, then what's the side effect or resource loss?

 

[Mr Happy]

Its just an example which was lost in denial. I am not stating it superiority over anything.

The thing is, Megaton was not really lost in denial. People looked at the quest, and came to the conclusion that it sucked. I don't recall anyone dismissing it as hype, but I recall many dismissing it as a crap quest. Ok, it has choices and consequences, and alright, it may be done better than those in Oblivion, but, so what?

Dont be such an idiot. Remember again that I am not discussing FO vs Oblivion here

You missed the point. It doesn't matter that Fallout 3 does quests better than Oblivion, because Fallout 3 is a sequel to Fallout, not Oblivion. People realize that it is better than just about any quest in Oblivion, but nobody cares. Just because it is better than Oblivion doesn't mean its good.

 

[elander_]

Thats not the point we were discussion upon. You wanted more details on Megaton questline and claimed it never came, so I told you to read more leaving aside your prejudice about Bethesda.

Are you saying that i have a prejudice against Bethesda just because i think the quest they have shown is not an indication of Fallout role-playing? That's what i was talking about from the beginning.

Quoting me out-of-context isnt going to help. Besides, I already said that outcomes are fixed but there is choice in how you advance.

The fact that you bothered to mention those as choices still made me laugh.

Hmm. So first you assume that there arent any RP elements coz "hey its Oblivion with guns!" and now when you have contradicting facts you suddenly say "oh, but every cRPG should have those!" are you happy or disappointed?

I never assumed that Oblivion didn't have rpg elements. We should be happy that a game that has the Fallout name has mediocre choices now that have little to do with Fallout scope and ambition?

Perhaps. I never compared this to FO quests anyways.

So are you saying that we shouldn't compare a Fallout game to Fallout quests? That sounds retarded. But i'm glad you refuse to compare Fallout 3 to Fallout. It's a sign of admittance that Beth aren't doing everything they can to make a Fallout game.

Dont be such an idiot. Remember again that I am not discussing FO vs Oblivion here.

But that's why you are a dumbfuck. It's with Fallout you should compare Fallout 3 to and not Oblivion, because Fallout 3 is supposed to be the next Fallout game and not an improved version of Oblivion with guns.

 

[Kingston]

I'd say that Bethesda sees skill requirements as "your skill is too low; now cast a spell / drink a potion / pop some pills to beat the check!"

Kind of like using "Blood Buff" discipline in Vampire-Bloodlines??

You think people don't understand the flaws in Bloodlines?

This feels like "one of your favourite games had it, so you can't really argue against it!".

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'd say that Bethesda sees skill requirements as "your skill is too low; now cast a spell / drink a potion / pop some pills to beat the check!"

Kind of like using "Blood Buff" discipline in Vampire-Bloodlines??

First, what does Bloodlines have to do with FO3? Second, let's examine Blood Buff mechanics. It sets your physical attributes to 5. Not increases by 5, but sets to 5. The difference is important and, hopefully, doesn't need to be explained. The lockpicking increase is minor. Sure, you'd be able to open some easy locks, but anybody who actually played Bloodlines will agree that if you want to be able to open most locks, you'll have to invest a lot - thus reducing or eliminating the effects of Blood Buff on lockpicking - and that playing an unskilled "lockpicker" who's relying on Blood Buff is simply not a viable option.

 

[Aditya]

Thats not the point we were discussion upon. You wanted more details on Megaton questline and claimed it never came, so I told you to read more leaving aside your prejudice about Bethesda.

Are you saying that i have a prejudice against Bethesda just because i think the quest they have shown is not an indication of Fallout role-playing? That's what i was talking about from the beginning.

Really? I got the impression that you were saying you didnt have any additional information about megaton quests...

Hmm. So first you assume that there arent any RP elements coz "hey its Oblivion with guns!" and now when you have contradicting facts you suddenly say "oh, but every cRPG should have those!" are you happy or disappointed?

I never assumed that Oblivion didn't have rpg elements. We should be happy that a game that has the Fallout name has mediocre choices now that have little to do with Fallout scope and ambition?

Where am I saying that?

Dont be such an idiot. Remember again that I am not discussing FO vs Oblivion here.

But that's why you are a dumbfuck. It's with Fallout you should compare Fallout 3 to and not Oblivion, because Fallout 3 is supposed to be the next Fallout game and not an improved version of Oblivion with guns.

You know, I am really tired of stating the same things. Fallout 3, in its current form is obviously not 'Oblivion with guns'. And how it is not so can only be said by comparing it to Oblivion, not to Fallout. Dont go on telling me again n again how FO3 is flop compared to FO, coz thats NOT the thing that I am even arguing upon. That ways you are only proving yourself as dumbfuck.

First, what does Bloodlines have to do with FO3? Second, let's examine Blood Buff mechanics. It sets your physical attributes to 5. Not increases by 5, but sets to 5. The difference is important and, hopefully, doesn't need to be explained. The lockpicking increase is minor. Sure, you'd be able to open some easy locks, but anybody who actually played Bloodlines will agree that if you want to be able to open most locks, you'll have to invest a lot - thus reducing or eliminating the effects of Blood Buff on lockpicking - and that playing an unskilled "lockpicker" who's relying on Blood Buff is simply not a viable option.

You were singling out Bethesda when you stated "your skill is too low; now cast a spell / drink a potion / pop some pills to beat the check!" in a tone that suggested may be its something stupid. So I reminded about Troika's way to 'beat the check', which works not just for lockpicking but even for comabt. No, it doesnt work on all locks and has blood point penalty but we dont know how Bethesda is implementing its Mentats version as well. As BN stated, its work in progress. Call it 'rod of might' or 'blood buff' or 'mentats pills', this mechanism to temp boost stats is hardly new.

 

[DefJam101]

Umm, it was

The C&C indicated in the above example clearly surpasses anything presented in Oblivion. Surely you are not dumb to realize that?

And not, clearly surpasses anything presented in Fallout

Well, anyways.. you seem to be responding with 1 sentence to every question so there is no point in continuing this.

 

[Kingston]

Fallout 3, in its current form is obviously not 'Oblivion with guns'.

A quote from Todd Howard:

"When we started this, we would go to great lengths to explains the differences from Oblivion," explains Fallout 3's executive producer, Todd Howard. "If you're talking to an enthusiast, there are so many differences, and we feel it's under-selling the game to say it's Oblivion with guns. But when we started talking to more consumer-oriented magazines, we'd have, like, two seconds...and we'd say, 'it's like post-apocalyptic Oblivion with guns.' And they're like, 'Awesome!' To Joe Public, it's mainly first-peron, wide-open game and you get to do what you want. The game it's closest to is Oblivion. So now when someone asks, 'Is it Oblivion with guns?' my main answer is, 'in all the best ways.'"

So yes, the Executive Producer on Fallout3 says its "Oblivion with guns". I guess he'd know.

 

[Lumpy]

You were singling out Bethesda when you stated "your skill is too low; now cast a spell / drink a potion / pop some pills to beat the check!" in a tone that suggested may be its something stupid. So I reminded about Troika's way to 'beat the check', which works not just for lockpicking but even for comabt. No, it doesnt work on all locks and has blood point penalty but we dont know how Bethesda is implementing its Mentats version as well. As BN stated, its work in progress. Call it 'rod of might' or 'blood buff' or 'mentats pills', this mechanism to temp boost stats is hardly new.

The point is, you couldn't just take a bunch of Mentats to pass every Intelligence check in Fallout (unless you already had high intelligence, because Mentats provided a limited buff). It also didn't work for skill checks, I think. While in Fallout 3, Todd takes a couple doses of Mentats, apparently making the skill redundant.

 

[Aditya]

Well, anyways.. you seem to be responding with 1 sentence to every question so there is no point in continuing this.

If you dont want to continue, your call. But dont say that I am not responding in more than one sentence. For just you, I have written these 3 sentences! And to *some* questions I have answered in one sentence coz there was nothing else to say.

@kingston

We both know I am talking in different context when I say its not 'Oblivion with guns'

@Lumpy

I do not know whether chewing Mentats will pass *EVERY* INT check and thereby making the skill redundant. If it indeed does so even in final game, it indeed would suck.

 

[Kingston]

@kingston

We both know I am talking in different context when I say its not 'Oblivion with guns'

Please elaborate what context you mean. In my context "Oblivion with guns" means the game plays like Oblivion, only with guns. I'm not sure how it can really differ.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You were singling out Bethesda when you stated "your skill is too low; now cast a spell / drink a potion / pop some pills to beat the check!" in a tone that suggested may be its something stupid. So I reminded about Troika's way to 'beat the check', which works not just for lockpicking but even for comabt. No, it doesnt work on all locks and has blood point penalty but we dont know how Bethesda is implementing its Mentats version as well. As BN stated, its work in progress. Call it 'rod of might' or 'blood buff' or 'mentats pills', this mechanism to temp boost stats is hardly new.

Did I say that? While I'm fairly certain that Beth will find the most idiotic way to implement buffing, the concept itself is as old as the genre. I explained how Blood Buff worked to indicate the difference between an interesting implementation and a game-breaking one. If you need examples...

Training in Morrowind has two major problems, the first is the cost and the other is the availability of trainers that can train skills to high levels. There is a simple way to counter act this using a spell with the Drain Skill effect. Simply use the drain skill effect to drastically lower the skill you desire to improve, then find a trainer and use the lowered rate to quickly improve your skill. (Note: Bretons will have to use a Weakness to Magicka effect to fully use the Drain Skill Effect. Note that even after reaching level 100 in whatever skill you trained, you can keep training it with Drain Skill and your main level can keep going up.
...

Super-Powerup

Prerequsites:

* Any Fortify Skill spell. See Restoration Spell Effects and scroll down to "Fortify Skill" for info on these spells. If you do not have Tribunal, you may have to perform a quest to obtain this.
* Your best Alchemy tools.
* Ingredients to make the super-potions of your choice.
* A few fortify & restore magicka potions.

<snip>... The end result will allow you to create (without failure) insane potions (like speed +368 for 1000 seconds, +72 magicka for 209 seconds, Levitate 368 for 500 seconds, etc.). Note that for speed, I had to use a combination which resulted in "Fortify Speed", "Drain Fatigue", "Restore Fatigue", resulting in a potion that canceled out it's own negative effects. Combining the speed and levitation potions, we could easily travel from one end of the map to the other in about 10 minutes of game playing time.

Additional Notes: We later learned that you can drink multiples of the same potion and the effects will stack. Thus, drinking a ton of fortify intelligence and luck potions may be easier and more effective than putting it on custom spells.
...

To prevent this type of imbalance, Bethesda should have used a logarithmic difficulty/magicka cost for the amount that a spell increases the skill, not a linear value. Additionally, restrict custom spells (as well as enchantment effects) to a single instance of the same type of effect (i.e., so you can't do "Fortify Alchemy +100" 8 times in the same spell).

 

[Aditya]

Please elaborate what context you mean. In my context "Oblivion with guns" means the game plays like Oblivion, only with guns. I'm not sure how it can really differ.

Yes. For you, 'Oblivion with Guns' means the game plays like Oblivion, only with guns, but WITH all its flaws. For me, FO3 is improvement upon core Oblivion and so its unfair to call it mere 'Oblivion with guns'. That’s the context on which we differ.

 

[Black]

But Oblivion didn't have any flaws!

 

[Lumpy]

FO3 is improvement upon core Oblivion

An improvement over core Oblivion? As in, being some sort of Oblivion expansion?
See, that's the problem. People don't want Fallout 3 to be a sandbox RPG, even if it were everything Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion should've been, combined in the most awesome sandbox goodness evar possible. It should be a sequel to Fallout 1.

 

[Aditya]

See, that's the problem. People don't want Fallout 3 to be a sandbox RPG, even if it were everything Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion should've been, combined in the most awesome sandbox goodness evar possible. It should be a sequel to Fallout 1.

Why would people not want goodness of sandbox rpg which ALSO has good elements of FO?? Infact isnt that the best combination? And I certainly hope Bethsoft is working with this aim....yeah, they are fucking up on somethings, though *hopefully* not on all.