Age of Wonders 4

[Lord of Riva]

I wish strategies will move back to 2D, those old games are still far better looking then anything released today.

half-agree on this, we have by now achieved quite decent graphics but the older 2D games have loads of charm. Then again both can and do exist at the same time so it's a bit of a toss up for me. The class/Culture system of AoW 3/4 is a lot easier to achieve with 3D models, so it's understandable.

My main worries about this game

Races of play-doh men with no gameplay difference between them

The 6 culture (dark, high, mystic , feudal, industrial, barbarian) look like the 'real race / variety ' at first but they only add tier 1 and 2 units to your recruitment options and tier 3,4,5 are all tome units ... So it's kinda inevitable that two cultures use units that other cultures have same access too after turn 30 ... At best the cultures have age of empires like tech tree differences between them

Economy vety player favored in the quick boom style and every early streamer seems to float hundreds of mana/ all non gold resources

Passive ai is back

It is incorrect that culture units are only Tier 1 & 2 every culture has a Tier 3 unit at it's disposal.

That map looks tiny. No way you'd be able to fit a full roster of players on it.

The map scales of player count and player "distance", don't get me wrong the maps are tiny, but it's not like it's that small if you have more players.

 

[Suicidal]

My main worries about this game

Races of play-doh men with no gameplay difference between them

The 6 culture (dark, high, mystic , feudal, industrial, barbarian) look like the 'real race / variety ' at first but they only add tier 1 and 2 units to your recruitment options and tier 3,4,5 are all tome units ... So it's kinda inevitable that two cultures use units that other cultures have same access too after turn 30 ... At best the cultures have age of empires like tech tree differences between them

Economy vety player favored in the quick boom style and every early streamer seems to float hundreds of mana/ all non gold resources

Passive ai is back

Culture units go up to tier 3. They are basically how races were in AoW 3 at launch, but with bigger differences between them. In AoW3 the races were extremely generic at first (every one of them had a scout unit, a sword unit, a pike unit, a ranged unit, a healer, light cavalry and a tier 3 which was a little more unique) but were improved with DLCs and also the DLC races like Frostlings and Tigrans had more fun things about them. The races also had no unique buildings or tech trees, IIRC.

Here not only do the units seem more different between cultures (Arcane has mostly ranged casters, Dark has no healers and normal infantry, etc.) but cultures also come with unique mechanics, buildings and tech tree upgrades, so it seems like it will be better than AoW3 races.

However, I wish cultures had at least 2 more units each, a tier 3 and a tier 4 would be perfect.

 

[Skorpion]

That map looks tiny. No way you'd be able to fit a full roster of players on it.

If your referring to the vid I posted they intentionally made a tiny skirmish map and because its primeaval there weren't even any neutral factions spawned. It was to do a "quick" 1v1 pvp style game.
As far as I understand you can pick different map sizes as well as the size of the underground.

 

[anvi]

So how is it? Any reason of getting this over AOW1 or Shadow Magic?

They were never that good, for one.
An overwhelming amount of options that hardly mattered past the most superficial flavor and a glacial pacing were two recurring issues.
If we were going to stick for "old school" I always liked Master of Magic better.

Anyway, updating you guys in few days, MAYBE, because I already bought this one on CDKeys.

I think the original was best and good for the time. The later games just balanced things and made it more boring. My main gripe is that nothing improves. AoW1 was good in 1999 but it's 24 years later and they are still flogging the same game with a lick of paint.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Culture units go up to tier 3. They are basically how races were in AoW 3 at launch, but with bigger differences between them. In AoW3 the races were extremely generic at first (every one of them had a scout unit, a sword unit, a pike unit, a ranged unit, a healer, light cavalry and a tier 3 which was a little more unique) but were improved with DLCs and also the DLC races like Frostlings and Tigrans had more fun things about them. The races also had no unique buildings or tech trees, IIRC.

Here not only do the units seem more different between cultures (Arcane has mostly ranged casters, Dark has no healers and normal infantry, etc.) but cultures also come with unique mechanics, buildings and tech tree upgrades, so it seems like it will be better than AoW3 races.

However, I wish cultures had at least 2 more units each, a tier 3 and a tier 4 would be perfect.

The building variety I was excited for at first, but it seems fake. You get something with an interesting name, like dark laboratory or whatever, but it just replaces a generic building with +5 research or what not.

And I don't think I've seen a single research node that would impact strategic map, so it seems those are still out. The strategic layer really feels even more lifeless than PF.

 

[Axioms]

So how is it? Any reason of getting this over AOW1 or Shadow Magic?

They were never that good, for one.
An overwhelming amount of options that hardly mattered past the most superficial flavor and a glacial pacing were two recurring issues.
If we were going to stick for "old school" I always liked Master of Magic better.

Anyway, updating you guys in few days, MAYBE, because I already bought this one on CDKeys.

I think the original was best and good for the time. The later games just balanced things and made it more boring. My main gripe is that nothing improves. AoW1 was good in 1999 but it's 24 years later and they are still flogging the same game with a lick of paint.

That's my major complaint with every modern strategy game. Sure QoL and better production values and stuff, but they neuter fun stuff for balance and the prices are sky high. If the 4-8 DLC took it way more towards the Dominions level of magical nonsense though I'd be hyped.

 

[Norfleet]

If your referring to the vid I posted they intentionally made a tiny skirmish map and because its primeaval there weren't even any neutral factions spawned. It was to do a "quick" 1v1 pvp style game.
As far as I understand you can pick different map sizes as well as the size of the underground.

I thought it was said earlier that we didn't pick the different map sizes, so we were always just stuck with the default size.

 

[Skorpion]

If your referring to the vid I posted they intentionally made a tiny skirmish map and because its primeaval there weren't even any neutral factions spawned. It was to do a "quick" 1v1 pvp style game.
As far as I understand you can pick different map sizes as well as the size of the underground.

I thought it was said earlier that we didn't pick the different map sizes, so we were always just stuck with the default size.

That would be incorrect as is shown in various vids, there is a lot of hilarious misinfo in this thread because of speculation prior to release.

 

[Axioms]

If your referring to the vid I posted they intentionally made a tiny skirmish map and because its primeaval there weren't even any neutral factions spawned. It was to do a "quick" 1v1 pvp style game.
As far as I understand you can pick different map sizes as well as the size of the underground.

I thought it was said earlier that we didn't pick the different map sizes, so we were always just stuck with the default size.

That would be incorrect as is shown in various vids, there is a lot of hilarious misinfo in this thread because of speculation prior to release.

I got this confirmed by a few streamers who have played the game: "Map sizes are determined by the faction count you pick and modified by the distance setting you choose. But you can't just pick a straight "huge" map.

Which is sad cause I'd love to have a 1v1 or 1v1v1 on a massive map.

 

[anvi]

So how is it? Any reason of getting this over AOW1 or Shadow Magic?

They were never that good, for one.
An overwhelming amount of options that hardly mattered past the most superficial flavor and a glacial pacing were two recurring issues.
If we were going to stick for "old school" I always liked Master of Magic better.

Anyway, updating you guys in few days, MAYBE, because I already bought this one on CDKeys.

I think the original was best and good for the time. The later games just balanced things and made it more boring. My main gripe is that nothing improves. AoW1 was good in 1999 but it's 24 years later and they are still flogging the same game with a lick of paint.

That's my major complaint with every modern strategy game. Sure QoL and better production values and stuff, but they neuter fun stuff for balance and the prices are sky high. If the 4-8 DLC took it way more towards the Dominions level of magical nonsense though I'd be hyped.

I always think it is weird and stupid when a game sequel has less than the previous game had. There were spells and units and things in AoW 1 that's not in AoW2 and same again in 3. I hate that they remove things... AoW4 should have everything that was in all the previous games and more. If each game added a few more things and redid balance and QOL, then by now it could be a huge epic game. But instead they seem to start from scratch each time, so it never gets bigger. Having to play without the big overland magic from Shadow Magic sucks, and without the Pestilence areas from AoW1 etc. Indie games are supposed to be cool... all this shitty streamlining is reminding me of Bethesda.

They also need to learn how to balance things and not just nerf fun things to become boring. Also the AI sucks. Most games the AI is scared of me and doesn't even develop. If I set it too high I get owned by a seemingly cheating AI. There's no in between. Also the game doesn't handle big maps well and yet they are most fun. There's more to do on a big map but it takes forever to wait for the AI. Big map matches are so slow it takes multiple days to finish, but really most of the time is spent dealing with notifications and shit that isn't even fun. The smaller maps have the opposite problem. Again I feel like the original AoW1 wasn't bad... and if they were improving things each time then by now it could be great. Maybe maps with lava in the overland areas too, more interactive stuff. If AoW3 could auto generate maps, then they should have figured out how to make the maps infinite. Travel in any direction and it loads new land. I wanna see innovation but most people don't seem to care.

I remember when I first played AOW1 and HoMM and I felt like I was exploring a fantasy world. But now that feeling is long dead. Now I know it's just a little box with a handful of cities and nodes. Maybe that's a feeling that can never remain once you know played the game for a while and seen all it can do, but I still think someone could do a way better job of all this.

 

[Skorpion]

If your referring to the vid I posted they intentionally made a tiny skirmish map and because its primeaval there weren't even any neutral factions spawned. It was to do a "quick" 1v1 pvp style game.
As far as I understand you can pick different map sizes as well as the size of the underground.

I thought it was said earlier that we didn't pick the different map sizes, so we were always just stuck with the default size.

That would be incorrect as is shown in various vids, there is a lot of hilarious misinfo in this thread because of speculation prior to release.

I got this confirmed by a few streamers who have played the game: "Map sizes are determined by the faction count you pick and modified by the distance setting you choose. But you can't just pick a straight "huge" map.

Which is sad cause I'd love to have a 1v1 or 1v1v1 on a massive map.

Yeah here is a time stamp showing a large map as opposed to the tiny one I linked earlier showing off a 1v1 pvp game.

Keep in mind the underworld is a separate map of its own that can be roughly the size of the overworld map as well so it can get really big.
That said youy are correct about it being based on distance setting and number of players/ai's which is a strange way to connect map size instead of, as you said, just straight picking map size.

 

[Zeriel]

So how is it? Any reason of getting this over AOW1 or Shadow Magic?

They were never that good, for one.
An overwhelming amount of options that hardly mattered past the most superficial flavor and a glacial pacing were two recurring issues.
If we were going to stick for "old school" I always liked Master of Magic better.

Anyway, updating you guys in few days, MAYBE, because I already bought this one on CDKeys.

I think the original was best and good for the time. The later games just balanced things and made it more boring. My main gripe is that nothing improves. AoW1 was good in 1999 but it's 24 years later and they are still flogging the same game with a lick of paint.

I WISH it was the same game. It degenerates with every sequel.

 

[Axioms]

So how is it? Any reason of getting this over AOW1 or Shadow Magic?

They were never that good, for one.
An overwhelming amount of options that hardly mattered past the most superficial flavor and a glacial pacing were two recurring issues.
If we were going to stick for "old school" I always liked Master of Magic better.

Anyway, updating you guys in few days, MAYBE, because I already bought this one on CDKeys.

I think the original was best and good for the time. The later games just balanced things and made it more boring. My main gripe is that nothing improves. AoW1 was good in 1999 but it's 24 years later and they are still flogging the same game with a lick of paint.

That's my major complaint with every modern strategy game. Sure QoL and better production values and stuff, but they neuter fun stuff for balance and the prices are sky high. If the 4-8 DLC took it way more towards the Dominions level of magical nonsense though I'd be hyped.

I always think it is weird and stupid when a game sequel has less than the previous game had. There were spells and units and things in AoW 1 that's not in AoW2 and same again in 3. I hate that they remove things... AoW4 should have everything that was in all the previous games and more. If each game added a few more things and redid balance and QOL, then by now it could be a huge epic game. But instead they seem to start from scratch each time, so it never gets bigger. Having to play without the big overland magic from Shadow Magic sucks, and without the Pestilence areas from AoW1 etc. Indie games are supposed to be cool... all this shitty streamlining is reminding me of Bethesda.

They also need to learn how to balance things and not just nerf fun things to become boring. Also the AI sucks. Most games the AI is scared of me and doesn't even develop. If I set it too high I get owned by a seemingly cheating AI. There's no in between. Also the game doesn't handle big maps well and yet they are most fun. There's more to do on a big map but it takes forever to wait for the AI. Big map matches are so slow it takes multiple days to finish, but really most of the time is spent dealing with notifications and shit that isn't even fun. The smaller maps have the opposite problem. Again I feel like the original AoW1 wasn't bad... and if they were improving things each time then by now it could be great. Maybe maps with lava in the overland areas too, more interactive stuff. If AoW3 could auto generate maps, then they should have figured out how to make the maps infinite. Travel in any direction and it loads new land. I wanna see innovation but most people don't seem to care.

I remember when I first played AOW1 and HoMM and I felt like I was exploring a fantasy world. But now that feeling is long dead. Now I know it's just a little box with a handful of cities and nodes. Maybe that's a feeling that can never remain once you know played the game for a while and seen all it can do, but I still think someone could do a way better job of all this.

A lot of people like Das Tactic claim Deity empires is more like AoW1 than the new games and that is even given the fact that Das really likes AoW4. Triumph is hardly indie these days and they swapped publishers to PDox.

The issue is that the fancier the graphics the more limited the mechanics because you have to spend more time visualizing every new mechanic or feature but most devs and especially publishers think that higher production values has a higher return on investment than more expansive mechanics.

 

[BING XI LAO]

People should play AoW1, there's a discord server where we organise PBEMs and the occasional live game. Really extensive modding and mapmaking too. AoW1 had a lot of features that shine after some numerical tweaks, like doubling the heal from Lifestealing so that those units play very differently (all or nothing combat outcomes), to take just one example from many. You can also contact me on here or on Gog forums if you don't have discord, if you are interested in signing up for PBEM.
https://discord.gg/2YMyfa2

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Keep in mind the underworld is a separate map of its own that can be roughly the size of the overworld map as well so it can get really big.

I'm guessing that there'll be no option to toggle between having solely an underworld, solely an overworld or having both when making a custom map?

 

[Axioms]

People should play AoW1, there's a discord server where we organise PBEMs and the occasional live game. Really extensive modding and mapmaking too. AoW1 had a lot of features that shine after some numerical tweaks, like doubling the heal from Lifestealing so that those units play very differently (all or nothing combat outcomes), to take just one example from many. You can also contact me on here or on Gog forums if you don't have discord, if you are interested in signing up for PBEM.
https://discord.gg/2YMyfa2

What are the standout vanilla features in AoW1 that 2, 3, PF, and/or 4 lack?

 

[BING XI LAO]

People should play AoW1, there's a discord server where we organise PBEMs and the occasional live game. Really extensive modding and mapmaking too. AoW1 had a lot of features that shine after some numerical tweaks, like doubling the heal from Lifestealing so that those units play very differently (all or nothing combat outcomes), to take just one example from many. You can also contact me on here or on Gog forums if you don't have discord, if you are interested in signing up for PBEM.
https://discord.gg/2YMyfa2

What are the standout vanilla features in AoW1 that 2, 3, PF, and/or 4 lack?

The biggest one is that heroes can independently cast strategic-map spells from their current location. This is significant since summons and a few other spells always arrive at caster location, while most of the rest have a strategic-map castrange of 12 (a few others are unlimited range). In AoW2 heroes were restricted to casting in battle, and in AoW3 (which I never properly played) casting was further restricted with for example combat-only enchantments, now I heardin AoW4 enchantments are an empire-wide passive for a given unit type. AoW1 also has altars, standalone shipyards, and the walls require specific abilities to bypass (even against no military garrison), as opposed to AoW2 where any unit can bash down a gate and aow3 where (IIRC, didn't play that shit) ladders auto-spawn.

 

[anvi]

Using magic any time was so much better in AoW1/2. You could use healing magic and stuff after battles and don't have to wait to regen. I liked buffing characters pre fight and knowing some important things were done before it even begins. The spells were better too... spells like Stone Skin and Enchanted Weapon were staples. They got removed/nerfed from the later games. The main thing is that you can build overpowered heroes in AoW1 which is way more fun to me. Late game becomes a slog of battles and at least in AoW1 your powerful group could wipe out most things in auto combat. Meaning you can just focus on manually fighting the few big important battles. AoW3 'balanced' things so there's no powerful groups. You have to slowly build a huge army and slowly starve your opponents. And you have to fight a million crappy little battles to babysit your team. RNG is a nightmare too in later games.

AoW2 removed some cool stuff but it added some good things too like hugely powerful spells to use on the strategy map. So if you earned a lot of mana in the game you could blast the enemy cities with spells at the end. AoW3 removed that completely. There's a lot of things that got worse in AoW3... I liked it at first but I got bored after a while. Then I played AoW1 again and remembered all the great stuff that went missing.

p.s. One of my favorite spells was Town Teleport. It let me explore more confidently with my badass team and I knew if the homeland got attacked I could teleport back in time. Again, AoW3 removed that. It forces you to have strong defences to keep attackers away. But that just makes the game take ages because you have to defend every city and expand evenly. It's more balanced I guess but it's so boring compared to teleporting back at the last second to counterattack when my capitol city is being attacked.

 

[Zeriel]

Using magic any time was so much better in AoW1/2. You could use healing magic and stuff after battles and don't have to wait to regen. I liked buffing characters pre fight and knowing some important things were done before it even begins. The spells were better too... spells like Stone Skin and Enchanted Weapon were staples. They got removed/nerfed from the later games. The main thing is that you can build overpowered heroes in AoW1 which is way more fun to me. Late game becomes a slog of battles and at least in AoW1 your powerful group could wipe out most things in auto combat. Meaning you can just focus on manually fighting the few big important battles. AoW3 'balanced' things so there's no powerful groups. You have to slowly build a huge army and slowly starve your opponents. And you have to fight a million crappy little battles to babysit your team. RNG is a nightmare too in later games.

AoW2 removed some cool stuff but it added some good things too like hugely powerful spells to use on the strategy map. So if you earned a lot of mana in the game you could blast the enemy cities with spells at the end. AoW3 removed that completely. There's a lot of things that got worse in AoW3... I liked it at first but I got bored after a while. Then I played AoW1 again and remembered all the great stuff that went missing.

p.s. One of my favorite spells was Town Teleport. It let me explore more confidently with my badass team and I knew if the homeland got attacked I could teleport back in time. Again, AoW3 removed that. It forces you to have strong defences to keep attackers away. But that just makes the game take ages because you have to defend every city and expand evenly. It's more balanced I guess but it's so boring compared to teleporting back at the last second to counterattack when my capitol city is being attacked.

Yeah, the whole "we must balance before all else!!!1" mind disease of the modern game dev really set in with AoW 3. The irony is it's always completely pointless; you subtract fun but you never arrive at perfect balance, good players will always find new exploits that are even more broken, so it's just destroying what works in favor of something bland and mediocre. Kind of like how collectivism works IRL I guess; you don't eliminate greed, you just instansiate a worse version of elites who are even more unanswerable.

My biggest gripe with AoW 3 (and now 4) is how completely rootless and unreal everything feels. It's blatantly gamey, in that there is no real set world, no lore to the units, nothing. It's all in service of the "gameplay", which is fine except that AoW 1 had both amazing lore and gameplay. I find it hard to care about a gameworld that specifically wants you to not take it seriously. Sure, it can be fun in MP, but that's about it, the legacy of AoW 1 as a strategy great of all time second only to Master of Magic is completely eliminated in the sequels because you feel nothing in particular about it, there is no emotion or investment in the world.

Small sidenote, the siege system in AoW 4 is awful and is such a blatant bandaid on a problem that was already solved in AoW 1. Totally emblematic of modern dev thinking too. Instead of solving the issue of rushing in an organic way that makes sense for the gameworld, ala AoW 1's siege engines allowing bypassing walls and auto-calcing cities, but otherwise walled cities presenting a serious barrier to wandering low tier armies, they implement a kruft-heavy wad of hardlocked mechanics that completely cockblock an entire part of the game and ruin the inherent balance between eco'ing and rushing. It's the baby-proofing of games.

 

[BING XI LAO]

My dream is to enable unit spellcasting for AoW1, then add the ability to a summonable unit.

 

[Skorpion]

Keep in mind the underworld is a separate map of its own that can be roughly the size of the overworld map as well so it can get really big.

I'm guessing that there'll be no option to toggle between having solely an underworld, solely an overworld or having both when making a custom map?

Not at this time from what Ive seen, there are some options regarding the underworld but nothing like that.
Will know more tomorrow and can answer after work.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Zed]

Coming 2 May, 2023​

This game plans to unlock in approximately 4 hours

 

[Lagi]

i am hype too... (grown man excited about computer game release yeehooo!) but there is no way im buying it, will watch some Youtubes thats for sure. After a weak i will check the first steam reviews with 100+hours.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

RNG is a nightmare too in later games.