Baldur's Gate #BaldurGate: Siege of Dragonspear

[Space Insect]

I don't know. I was never as emotionally invested in a game as that time I let Aerie die.

Or you can get her pregnant and then dump her and kick her out of your party.

But just imagine how emotionally scarred the baby will be after being carried around in a back pack all over. Maybe it'll be as mentally damaged as Aerie.

 

[AMG]

Well, what I'm talking about is less about the sheer amount of lore and more about how the plot uses said lore. Basically, how much lore detail do you need to have a good, satisfying understanding of the game's story?

I think the move to faction-centric storylines in RPGs has made them more "lore-dependent" and details-driven. You don't need to understand much about the Flaming Fist or the Iron Throne to comprehend the storyline of Baldur's Gate, because the story isn't about them. They're basically generic medieval guards/baddies like you've seen a in a hundred other fantasy stories.

But once you put factions at the center of your story, once you make a story that's primarily about large groups with wider agendas and motivations rather than about heroic individuals, that requires giving the player an understanding of all sorts of historical and social dynamics aka LORE.

Actually Iron Throne aren't really generic baddies. They are just greedy merchants, manipulated behind the scenes by Sarevok.
Also there is a one nice segment where you "infiltrate" their compound. Whether you can bullshit your way through guards, depends on what you say. If you say you are Iron Throne merchants from Sembia they will let you through, since there is an Iron Throne branch there. If you say you are from Cormyr you get attacked, because Iron Throne is forbidden from operating there. Of course you can learn this if you pay attention to dialogs. How is that for a lore driven gameplay huh ?


Anyways... moving back to SoD, if it doesn't dish out any lore details, then obviously it doesn't require understanding of it. Also, it's not a faction driven game. It's a completely linear romp, with the crusade being the oh so not-generic baddies.

 

[pippin]

I don't know. I was never as emotionally invested in a game as that time I let Aerie die.

Or you can get her pregnant and then dump her and kick her out of your party.

But just imagine how emotionally scarred the baby will be after being carried around in a back pack all over. Maybe it'll be as mentally damaged as Aerie.

Just likein NWN then.

You can always sell the baby to some happy gnome merchant or something like that though.

 

[AMG]

Pillars also proudly continues the tradition of baby in the backpack. And even the ending acknowleges it. So it is the most advanced game in this aspect by far.

 

[Delterius]

Do you guys think every RPG protagonist is a backpack baby? That would explain the obsession with looting and juggling inventory space.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

The only thing I hated when it comes to combat in PoE was the Adra dragon fight. You can literally win that fight by taking 1 ranged character and giving him boots of speed and shoot arrows at the dragon for 2 hours while running around. Or you could kill it by spamming ogres and dragons with your chanter while running around the dragon. It was trivially easy by using cheese tactics, while at the same time impossible without save scumming to do it in a non-cheesy way. If you miss that first petrify spell and do not manage to kill the dragon in 10-20 seconds, he will one shot kill most of your party.

Eh, unlike in many IE games, in PoE 'aggro' actually sort of works. You can pretty reliably lock down a difficult boss with your tank and split the rest of the party to deal with adds and take them out of range of boss AoE attacks (esp. dragon breath). I beat the Adra dragon and the Sky Dragon like that in only a handful of tries. The Llengrath fight is kind of nuts though, but pretty sure it's doable with the right party composition.

Also, why is this thread about PoE? I came for tranny drama and

 

[Immortal]

I don't see what factions have to do it. BG2 has a faction conflict after all ('Shadow thieves vs. vampires') and it's not something that's heavy on lore.

I guess what I said is more "ought" than "is". BG2's "faction conflict" was exceptionally hollow.

Most faction conflict in CRPG's is exceptionally hollow.
That's why when we get something with even a small quivering fart of innovation in this area of design, the game is propped up as a demagogue.
See: Fallout New Vegas.

 

[Fowyr]

Aethra Chronicles had baby in backpack too!
It's the end of main quest, though.

 

[Mareus]

...Kotor does that by recycling almost every plot element from the original trilogy (although primarily a New Hope)...
Kotor is about a group of Republic allies flying around in a stolen freighter ship trying to prevent a space station with planet-destroying capability from taking over the galaxy, punctured by a second-act plot twist about the identity of the protagonist. If this sounds familiar, it's because it's a summary of the OT as well.

When you said that Kotor recycles almost every plot element from the original trilogy, I originally thought to myself 'Wait a minute... is he talking about Star Wars: The Force Awakens... or is he just over exaggerating. I see now, you are just full of shit. If you summarize enough any plot, you will come to some astounding similarities.

For example: Planescape Torment is about a guy who every once in a while loses his memory so he reads tattoo hints on his body in order to get to the bottom of a mystery that stretches out over a long period of time... Yeah.. its obviously recycling almost every plot element from Memento. (Yes, I know Memento was released around the same time, but it is irrelevant for the argument. The point is that if you reduce the plot enough, you can make two completely different things sound the same).

 

[GrainWetski]

Memento was almost a year after PS:T.

 

[Mareus]

The only thing I hated when it comes to combat in PoE was the Adra dragon fight. You can literally win that fight by taking 1 ranged character and giving him boots of speed and shoot arrows at the dragon for 2 hours while running around. Or you could kill it by spamming ogres and dragons with your chanter while running around the dragon. It was trivially easy by using cheese tactics, while at the same time impossible without save scumming to do it in a non-cheesy way. If you miss that first petrify spell and do not manage to kill the dragon in 10-20 seconds, he will one shot kill most of your party.

Eh, unlike in many IE games, in PoE 'aggro' actually sort of works. You can pretty reliably lock down a difficult boss with your tank and split the rest of the party to deal with adds and take them out of range of boss AoE attacks (esp. dragon breath). I beat the Adra dragon and the Sky Dragon like that in only a handful of tries. The Llengrath fight is kind of nuts though, but pretty sure it's doable with the right party composition.

That is all well and nice, son - but you can tell such fairy tales to people who haven't played the game. You see, your strategy does not work on Adra dragon. My fighter tank with best equipment I could find gets annihilated by the Adra dragon in 2-3 blows. Even if I was able to heal my fighter - which I cant because your healer needs to get close and then gets crushed by the dragon before he can cast a spell - my fighter would still get annihilated 5 seconds later. Secondly, the range on pretty much any other spell is well within the reach of the adra dragon, so when he does his 360 degrees attack - he one shots anyone who is trying to cast a spell at him. To top it off, he is immune to everything, unless you can petrify him - but good luck with that (as I said spell range is the problem).

The only thing that works on him is to get lucky and successfully petrify him before he one shots your spell caster, and then quickly bash him to death in 10 seconds before the petrifying spell runs out. Trying to keep the aggro on the adra dragon is not possible, because your fighter will be dead in a matter of seconds. And to even compare Sky dragon fight with that green monstrosity is ridiculous. Sky Dragon is nothing in comparison to the Adra dragon. The only sure way to kill that green bastard is to cheese your way to victory. As I said, spamming infinite number of giants by your chanter while you are keeping your distance does miracles. She couldn't even scratch me - which proves my point. Crappy design.

 

[Lacrymas]

Adra Dragon was very badly designed.

 

[Mareus]

Memento was almost a year after PS:T.

Read... ...what...... I wrote.......before......you......comment!

 

[Lhynn]

Adra Dragon was very badly designed.

Its like they gave the job of designing it to a children with a very basic understanding of the system and told him to make it the most epic fight ever, then bought him a bag of candy and other shit with tons of sugar and left him working on it for an entire afternoon.

 

[GrainWetski]

Memento was almost a year after PS:T.

Read... ...what...... I wrote.......before......you......comment!

I know Memento was released around the same time

A year later is not around the same time and you'd have to talk about Memento stealing from PS:T unless they had a time machine at Black Isle.

 

[Lacrymas]

Its like they gave the job of designing it to a children with a very basic understanding of the system and told him to make it the most epic fight ever, then bought him a bag of candy and other shit with tons of sugar and left him working on it for an entire afternoon.

It's much more terrifying than that - actual designers who get paid to do this designed it.

 

[AMG]

I dunno what you all are so salty about. Sure "lol its immune to almost everything and killls you in 5 seconds" is not a high brow design, but it was a rare moment of acutal difficulty. You had to stop and think how to deal with it and read some spell descriptions (until that point in my PotD run, I haven't actually read what any of spells do, I just assumed it was more or less the same as BG).
To me it doesn't really matter how you challenge player. Only that you do. Because it is an extremely rare sight in RPGs (and single-player games in general tbh).

To make this post somehow SoD relevant, it's encounter design actually reminds me of Pillars. Large groups of bumrushing mobs, supported by 1 or 2 spellcasters. Copy pasted generously all over areas.

 

[karfhud]

For example: Planescape Torment is about a guy who every once in a while loses his memory so he reads tattoo hints on his body in order to get to the bottom of a mystery that stretches out over a long period of time... Yeah.. its obviously recycling almost every plot element from Memento. (Yes, I know Memento was released around the same time, but it is irrelevant for the argument. The point is that if you reduce the plot enough, you can make two completely different things sound the same).

Have to disagree here.

The point is that if you reduce the plot enough, you can make two completely different things sound the same

First of all, that could be true if you mentioned the story, not the plot. Secondly, this statement is just too broad. Try comparing Mrs Doubtfire and The Matrix and boil it down to make it sound the same (part of me wishes you amazingly succeed at this, actually).

For example: Planescape Torment is about a guy who every once in a while loses his memory so he reads tattoo hints on his body in order to get to the bottom of a mystery that stretches out over a long period of time... Yeah.. its obviously recycling almost every plot element from Memento.

PS:T is about a guy who, when he dies, loses his memory - not every once in a while. That's a humongous difference. Also, the tattoos are fairly fresh - they were carved by his previous incarnation, iirc. Eventually (spoiler follows, I guess), through learning of his past, he can end the titular torment; in Memento, the protagonist's focused on finding out about his past, period.

 

[Trashos]

Also, why is this thread about PoE? I came for tranny drama and

Tranny --> Tyranny --> Obsidian --> Pillars of Eternity

Most faction conflict in CRPG's is exceptionally hollow.
That's why when we get something with even a small quivering fart of innovation in this area of design, the game is propped up as a demagogue.
See: Fallout New Vegas.

A demagogue is a public speaker (usually a political figure) who is full of shit and misleads people on purpose. Not sure what you mean here.

 

[Mareus]

Memento was almost a year after PS:T.

Read... ...what...... I wrote.......before......you......comment!

I know Memento was released around the same time

A year later is not around the same time and you'd have to talk about Memento stealing from PS:T unless they had a time machine at Black Isle.

 

[Mareus]

For example: Planescape Torment is about a guy who every once in a while loses his memory so he reads tattoo hints on his body in order to get to the bottom of a mystery that stretches out over a long period of time... Yeah.. its obviously recycling almost every plot element from Memento. (Yes, I know Memento was released around the same time, but it is irrelevant for the argument. The point is that if you reduce the plot enough, you can make two completely different things sound the same).

Have to disagree here.

The point is that if you reduce the plot enough, you can make two completely different things sound the same

First of all, that could be true if you mentioned the story, not the plot. Secondly, this statement is just too broad. Try comparing Mrs Doubtfire and The Matrix and boil it down to make it sound the same (part of me wishes you amazingly succeed at this, actually).

For example: Planescape Torment is about a guy who every once in a while loses his memory so he reads tattoo hints on his body in order to get to the bottom of a mystery that stretches out over a long period of time... Yeah.. its obviously recycling almost every plot element from Memento.

PS:T is about a guy who, when he dies, loses his memory - not every once in a while. That's a humongous difference. Also, the tattoos are fairly fresh - they were carved by his previous incarnation, iirc. Eventually (spoiler follows, I guess), through learning of his past, he can end the titular torment; in Memento, the protagonist's focused on finding out about his past, period.

You missed the point. But nice wall of meaningless dribble.
:mrpresident:

 

[karfhud]

You missed the point. But nice wall of meaningless dribble.

The point is that if you reduce the plot enough, you can make two completely different things sound the same

First of all, that could be true if you mentioned the story, not the plot. Secondly, this statement is just too broad. Try comparing Mrs Doubtfire and The Matrix and boil it down to make it sound the same (part of me wishes you amazingly succeed at this, actually).

How did I miss the point?

 

[Immortal]

Also, why is this thread about PoE? I came for tranny drama and

Tranny --> Tyranny --> Obsidian --> Pillars of Eternity

Most faction conflict in CRPG's is exceptionally hollow.
That's why when we get something with even a small quivering fart of innovation in this area of design, the game is propped up as a demagogue.
See: Fallout New Vegas.

A demagogue is a public speaker (usually a political figure) who is full of shit and misleads people on purpose. Not sure what you mean here.

:mrpresident:

 

[Melcar]

I don't know. I was never as emotionally invested in a game as that time I let Aerie die.

Or you can get her pregnant and then dump her and kick her out of your party.

You know, that could have made for a good villain for a BG game.

 

[pippin]

I don't know. I was never as emotionally invested in a game as that time I let Aerie die.

Or you can get her pregnant and then dump her and kick her out of your party.

You know, that could have made for a good villain for a BG game.

Kylo Ren II