Baldur's Gate #BaldurGate: Siege of Dragonspear

[Ninjerk]

Mareus You're being incredibly disingenuous. KotOR recycles the OT down to the very visual motifs. Compare the Leviathan and the stock Star Destroyer (Victory-class?), the Ebon Hawk to the Millenium Falcon, the principal villain being further dehumanized by his machine conversion. I'm sure we could dig more similarities the designers created to evoke a sort of "Star Wars feeling."

 

[Rivmusique]

The only thing I hated when it comes to combat in PoE was the Adra dragon fight. You can literally win that fight by taking 1 ranged character and giving him boots of speed and shoot arrows at the dragon for 2 hours while running around. Or you could kill it by spamming ogres and dragons with your chanter while running around the dragon. It was trivially easy by using cheese tactics, while at the same time impossible without save scumming to do it in a non-cheesy way. If you miss that first petrify spell and do not manage to kill the dragon in 10-20 seconds, he will one shot kill most of your party.

Eh, unlike in many IE games, in PoE 'aggro' actually sort of works. You can pretty reliably lock down a difficult boss with your tank and split the rest of the party to deal with adds and take them out of range of boss AoE attacks (esp. dragon breath). I beat the Adra dragon and the Sky Dragon like that in only a handful of tries. The Llengrath fight is kind of nuts though, but pretty sure it's doable with the right party composition.

That is all well and nice, son - but you can tell such fairy tales to people who haven't played the game. You see, your strategy does not work on Adra dragon. My fighter tank with best equipment I could find gets annihilated by the Adra dragon in 2-3 blows. Even if I was able to heal my fighter - which I cant because your healer needs to get close and then gets crushed by the dragon before he can cast a spell - my fighter would still get annihilated 5 seconds later. Secondly, the range on pretty much any other spell is well within the reach of the adra dragon, so when he does his 360 degrees attack - he one shots anyone who is trying to cast a spell at him. To top it off, he is immune to everything, unless you can petrify him - but good luck with that (as I said spell range is the problem).

The only thing that works on him is to get lucky and successfully petrify him before he one shots your spell caster, and then quickly bash him to death in 10 seconds before the petrifying spell runs out. Trying to keep the aggro on the adra dragon is not possible, because your fighter will be dead in a matter of seconds. And to even compare Sky dragon fight with that green monstrosity is ridiculous. Sky Dragon is nothing in comparison to the Adra dragon. The only sure way to kill that green bastard is to cheese your way to victory. As I said, spamming infinite number of giants by your chanter while you are keeping your distance does miracles. She couldn't even scratch me - which proves my point. Crappy design.

Simply not true. Sounds like you just weren't good enough.

 

[Mareus]

Mareus You're being incredibly disingenuous. KotOR recycles the OT down to the very visual motifs. Compare the Leviathan and the stock Star Destroyer (Victory-class?), the Ebon Hawk to the Millenium Falcon, the principal villain being further dehumanized by his machine conversion. I'm sure we could dig more similarities the designers created to evoke a sort of "Star Wars feeling."

Nice equivocation fallacy there, son. Athelas said that almost every plot element from the OT was recycled into Kotor. You are talking about visual motives. While I will grant you that there is obvious similarity between various ships, buildings, uniforms, etc... none of those things translate into plot elements. If you think otherwise, I will just call you a retard and move on.


Athelas made the following argument:

...Kotor does that by recycling almost every plot element from the original trilogy (although primarily a New Hope)...
Kotor is about a group of Republic allies flying around in a stolen freighter ship trying to prevent a space station with planet-destroying capability from taking over the galaxy, punctured by a second-act plot twist about the identity of the protagonist. If this sounds familiar, it's because it's a summary of the OT as well.

This is obviously fallacious, becasue if you reduce enough of the plot, you will come to some astounding similarities between things that have nothing in common. I gave the following example:
- Planescape Torment is about a guy who every once in a while loses his memory so he reads tattoo hints on his body in order to get to the bottom of a mystery that stretches out over a long period of time... -> obviously recycling almost every plot element from Memento. (Yes, I know Memento was released around the same time, but it is irrelevant for the argument. The point is that if you reduce the plot enough, you can make two completely different things sound the same).

Notice how I avoided to mention very important differences, like the fact that the guy from PST cannot die, while the guy in Memento is just a regular human who cannot form longterm memory. I didn't mention setting difference, I didn't mention the difference between villains, etc. The point was, that Athelas was doing the same thing when he didn't mention the difference between Luke and Revan. He didn't mention Revan's loss of memory, his fall to the dark side and redemption. He didn't mention characters like Bastilla that have completely unique force abilities. He didn't mention important differences like the fact that OT is focused much more on the family drama between the Skywalkers, while Revan's quest is much more focused on the discovery of the Star Forge... And I could go on.

One retard went: Memento was released 1 year later! Check mate! -> Wow... congratulations, son! You are an idiot!
The other retard went explaining to me all the plot elements I intentionally obfuscated in order to show just what Athelas was doing.
And now Ninjatard is trying to prove the game recycled almost every plot element from OT by pointing out some similiarities between character design, ship design and what not. Wow... just wow...

The funny thing is that Force Awakens is actually recycling every plot element from OT (especially NH). So if we were talking about that pos, I would agree with you guys. But, Kotor is enough of its own thing that it can stand on its own two legs. Nobody is denying some small similarities, but to say it is recycling almost every plot element , now that right there is not just disingenuous - its retarded.

 

[Mustawd]

But Memento was released a year later.

Hi, have we met? I have a memory problem. Just FYI. Anyways...

Memento was released a year later bro.

 

[Mareus]

But Memento was released a year later.

Hi, have we met? I have a memory problem. Just FYI. Anyways...

Memento was released a year later bro.

Yeeeees? I am aware of that. But how is that fact relevant to anything I said?

 

[Mustawd]

But how is that fact relevant to anything I said?

Spoiler

 

[Infinitron]

This is what happens when drama dies.

 

[Azarkon]

How do the SoD romances compare to landmark romances such as Saerileth though?

Aren't they opposites? The former is a feminist's idea of how love should work and the latter is some dude's medieval fantasy girl friend.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Well that was two pages of stupid.

 

[Prime Junta]

I liked it better when I was pretending to be a Trotskyite. Can we do that again?

 

[SionIV]

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/52705/more-on-mizhena-from-trent-oster

In addition to an interview to www.develop-online, Trent Oster has talked about Mizhena and surrounding issues tohttp://www.gamebug.com.au/.

"1. What was Beamdog’s gut reaction to the overall negative reception of the trans character Mizhena ?

We’ve had three reactions to the character of Mizhena. The first reaction has been positive, which we’ve received a large volume of feedback from people who like the character and feel she is a welcome addition to the Baldur’s Gate series. The secondary reaction has been around the speed Mizhena goes from meeting you to revealing her gender.

While RPGs have a great history of people blurting out their stories / needs to players at the drop of a hat, some people felt Mizhena should be more protective of her gender identity and would keep it hidden. One interesting counter to that I’ve heard a lot recently is: In a fantasy world, with half-elves, half orcs and girdles of masculinity/femininity, maybe gender isn’t such a big deal and as such the character doesn’t feel she’s really risking anything by telling you the origin of her name.

On the other hand, Mizhena was written under guidelines to limit support characters to only three nodes of dialogue. This construct really forces the character to quickly get to the point on anything we want them to discuss or reveal. We’re going to revisit Mizhena and expand her lines to make her flow better and feel less forced in a future update. The third reaction has been one against the concept of the character due to her gender. There isn’t much you can say about that reaction to a character in a fictional setting.

2. Were you able to find actual constructive critique in the sea of hate speech that was given to you, and if so are you taking those criticisms on board when writing for trans characters in the future ?

I think the biggest lesson learned is we need to approach future transgendered characters with more intent and a bigger plan. Mizhena is a supporting character and was written as such. Going forward we’ll tackle any transgendered characters in greater detail and depth.

3. How do you think this incident has affected the broader industry as a whole when it comes to equal representation within games ?

I think this is one of a string of incidents and by itself has little effect. I think as part of a larger, industry-wide issue, it will increase the attention and the conversations around inclusion.

This controversy, as all the previous video game character controversy, will create more talks at conferences, more articles and more people who are engaged on the topic. As a while, I see it as an attention gathering moment which will feed the future conversation around inclusion within video games.

4. Did you and your team take offence with suggestions that Mizhena was just a form of “LGBT tokenism”, how do you think this perception can be changed overall when it comes to including LGBT characters for the sake of the narrative experience and not a presumed publicity stunt ?

Mizhena was intended as a cleric support character who is an interesting person in her own right. The lack of depth was not intended, but was an artifact of our limit on the conversation depth for support characters. I think the right thing to do is for us to do a better job and remove the arbitrary conversation limitations.

This character has captured a lot of attention and as such, it is only fitting we expand her writing to accommodate the interest level. We are still working out what our exact approach will be for the character and it will be a few updates before the new content makes it into the game, but we’re going to put a good effort into giving her more depth."

http://www.gamebug.com.au/2016/04/12/that-business-with-baldurs-gate/

 

[Turjan]

I liked it better when I was pretending to be a Trotskyite. Can we do that again?

It was somewhat expected that this calmed down today, as most of the Codex is probably busy playing the newest Fallout 4 DLC.

 

[Athelas]

I think the biggest lesson learned is we need to approach future transgendered characters with more intent and a bigger plan. Mizhena is a supporting character and was written as such. Going forward we’ll tackle any transgendered characters in greater detail and depth.

I hope you guys are happy with what you accomplished.

 

[Lhynn]

The character didnt capture the attention of anyone with a brain, who gives a shit about some tranny, BG1 entire beregost could have been full of trannies for all i care, as long as they didnt identify as such it would have been fine. How they handled the writing and the whole mess after that is the real problem here.

 

[SionIV]

I don't know if anyone has posted this yet, it's old but it got mentioned recently on the Beamdog forum.

https://twitter.com/TrentOster/status/183904243772698625?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

"We want to do Planescape: Torment after the BG series." - Trent

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/44388/#Comment_44388

"Hmm. We have a Planescape.zip file here that seems to have a bunch of source codey stuff in it ;-)" - Trent

"I'm sure we could add some real value to a PS:T:EE if we were ever able to do it. Make it available on multiple platforms, for instance. It's my favorite game and I hope we get a chance to work on it some day." - Trent, March 2015.

Imagine that, Beamdog writing in Planescape Torment.

 

[Reinhardt]

Going forward we’ll tackle any transgendered characters in greater detail and depth.

Bold words, but can they prove it? Because from what i've seen most of the time they can't write even if life depends on it...

 

[Mustawd]

There was a thread back in 2012 about how it might be a multiplayer game. I think that was mentioned earlier in the thread (or one of the other SoD threads around).

 

[Mustawd]

Going forward we’ll tackle any transgendered characters in greater detail and depth.

Bold words, but can they prove it? Because from what i've seen most of the time they can't write even if life depends on it...

They struggle writing your run of the mill non-trans characters. FFS, dat stoner dialogue. Still hard to imagine someone okay'd that. Like another human being looked at that exchange and said, "Hmm, yeah looks good. Put it in".

 

[SionIV]

Someone should ask Chris Avellon what his feelings are on a Beamdog remake of Planescape Torment.

 

[AMG]

He would be happy about another "Chris Avellone stamp of approval" gig from Beamdog.

 

[Ninjerk]

Mareus You're being incredibly disingenuous. KotOR recycles the OT down to the very visual motifs. Compare the Leviathan and the stock Star Destroyer (Victory-class?), the Ebon Hawk to the Millenium Falcon, the principal villain being further dehumanized by his machine conversion. I'm sure we could dig more similarities the designers created to evoke a sort of "Star Wars feeling."

Nice equivocation fallacy there, son. Athelas said that almost every plot element from the OT was recycled into Kotor. You are talking about visual motives. While I will grant you that there is obvious similarity between various ships, buildings, uniforms, etc... none of those things translate into plot elements. If you think otherwise, I will just call you a retard and move on.


Athelas made the following argument:

...Kotor does that by recycling almost every plot element from the original trilogy (although primarily a New Hope)...
Kotor is about a group of Republic allies flying around in a stolen freighter ship trying to prevent a space station with planet-destroying capability from taking over the galaxy, punctured by a second-act plot twist about the identity of the protagonist. If this sounds familiar, it's because it's a summary of the OT as well.

This is obviously fallacious, becasue if you reduce enough of the plot, you will come to some astounding similarities between things that have nothing in common. I gave the following example:
- Planescape Torment is about a guy who every once in a while loses his memory so he reads tattoo hints on his body in order to get to the bottom of a mystery that stretches out over a long period of time... -> obviously recycling almost every plot element from Memento. (Yes, I know Memento was released around the same time, but it is irrelevant for the argument. The point is that if you reduce the plot enough, you can make two completely different things sound the same).

Notice how I avoided to mention very important differences, like the fact that the guy from PST cannot die, while the guy in Memento is just a regular human who cannot form longterm memory. I didn't mention setting difference, I didn't mention the difference between villains, etc. The point was, that Athelas was doing the same thing when he didn't mention the difference between Luke and Revan. He didn't mention Revan's loss of memory, his fall to the dark side and redemption. He didn't mention characters like Bastilla that have completely unique force abilities. He didn't mention important differences like the fact that OT is focused much more on the family drama between the Skywalkers, while Revan's quest is much more focused on the discovery of the Star Forge... And I could go on.

One retard went: Memento was released 1 year later! Check mate! -> Wow... congratulations, son! You are an idiot!
The other retard went explaining to me all the plot elements I intentionally obfuscated in order to show just what Athelas was doing.
And now Ninjatard is trying to prove the game recycled almost every plot element from OT by pointing out some similiarities between character design, ship design and what not. Wow... just wow...

The funny thing is that Force Awakens is actually recycling every plot element from OT (especially NH). So if we were talking about that pos, I would agree with you guys. But, Kotor is enough of its own thing that it can stand on its own two legs. Nobody is denying some small similarities, but to say it is recycling almost every plot element , now that right there is not just disingenuous - its retarded.

I never equated visual motifs with plot elements.

 

[Delterius]

Someone should ask Chris Avellon what his feelings are on a Beamdog remake of Planescape Torment.

Luckily for you I am a Wizard and a great diviner too!

I wasn't expecting Shades of Sigil (SoS) to bridge Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale the way it did, and I was pleasantly surprised, especially looking back from the original and seeing how the mid-prequel sets the world stage for events to come.
Shades made me feel as if I'd come home after a long absence to find old friends waiting for me, with the same life and spark I remembered from when they first journeyed by my side.

If anything I'm quite jealous of Beamdog.

 

[Athelas]

Uhm, you misspelled the title. It's '50 shades of Sigil'.

 

[Delterius]

Uhm, you misspelled the title. It's '50 shades of Sigil'.

 

[SionIV]

Someone should ask Chris Avellon what his feelings are on a Beamdog remake of Planescape Torment.

Luckily for you I am a Wizard and a great diviner too!

I wasn't expecting Shades of Sigil (SoS) to bridge Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale the way it did, and I was pleasantly surprised, especially looking back from the original and seeing how the mid-prequel sets the world stage for events to come.
Shades made me feel as if I'd come home after a long absence to find old friends waiting for me, with the same life and spark I remembered from when they first journeyed by my side.

If anything I'm quite jealous of Beamdog.