Baldur's Gate #BaldurGate: Siege of Dragonspear

[Zorba the Hutt]

Yes referring to that Turkish guy was low, althoug having read the thread on Steam this guy may just be a world class troll of codexian magnificence, but than again he could be legit.

I've found it harder than usual to tell who is trolling in this debacle, started reading this one with a personal story about the BG sex change girdle giving them a "deep sense of personal investment" back in the day - and assumed it a was a Codexer or someone, then it turned into a legit post with some good points.

tldr

My thoughts on Mizhena as a transgender person myself

Hey there Beamdog forums. I just wanted to give my feelings on the inclusion of this character from the perspective of someone who is trans.

For background: I was born 1991, as a biological male. As early as I can remember, I have wished that I was born female. When I was in kindergarten, my teacher asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up and I said a girl. My parents first recognized (but not accepted) my feelings when I was four and thought I would grow out of it. I thought I would to, but I didn't. I'm 24 now, I've been on hormone replacement therapy for a while and am trying to make the best of my situation and live my life in the way I feel is most comfortable for me.

Baldur's Gate is one of my favorite games of all time. I first got the game when I was 10 and loved it. I remember deliberately giving my character the belt of femininity/masculinity because back then I didn't know it was possible to 'change' your gender, I had never heard the term transgender and didn't even know there were other people in the world who had feelings like me. It gave me a deep sense of personal investment in a game series that was already incredible without it, and I've replayed the games more times than I can count.

I was really excited to hear about Siege of Dragonspear because playing new content in one of my favorite old games is like a dream come true. I won't get into my feelings about the expansion, I just want to talk about the inclusion of Mizhena.

Mizhena is a cheap, lazy, 'safe' character who is included for the sole purpose of having a transgender character in the game.

Let me just say that as a transsexual I would never, EVER introduce myself to someone by telling them that I am a transsexual. Being trans is not fun. People are mean and cruel to you. You are mean and cruel to yourself. I do not do the things I do because I want to be a transsexual, I do them because I want to be a woman. I want to blend in as a girl as a best I can, the last thing I would EVER do is draw attention to myself for being trans (except for this thread of course, har har). Even when people are trying to be nice it feels awful. I have had people come up to me, tell me they liked my clothes or hair, converse with me, make me feel good, and then end the conversation with "You know, I think people like you are so brave" and that sentence just makes me want to die. I just want to be seen as a normal person. Of course, usually when you get attention for being trans, it is not positive at all, which brings me to my next point:

The way your character converses with Mizhena is almost totally different than it is for everyone else in the game. You can be rude, mean, funny, or just throw a witty retort or remark to almost everyone in the game over the smallest thing, but even an evil blackguard who murders everyone in sight can only say "What a lovely name, tell me more", "How interesting" or "Good day to you". I understand that it would be politically incorrect to be rude or insult a transgender character for being trans, but to me all that does is highlight that being trans is different. The trans character is not on the same level as every other character, who can 'take' abuse from you. The trans character has to be protected from this because they're different. The way the trans character is implemented doesn't make me feel like "I'm just like everyone else" as I imagine the writer intended, it just makes me feel more like a freak or novelty. It's unrealistic.

The inclusion of Mizhena is utterly pointless. Having a transgender character just to have one brings nothing to the story, all it does is take you back to the 'real world', which to me ruins the immersion I'm supposed to feel playing a fantasy game. I would rather there be no trans character than a pointless one.

I also think that this was a massively missed opportunity for something special. There have been transgender people in many cultures across all of human history, and there are certainly stories to tell here. Why couldn't it have been done in a fun or interesting way that actually fits the game? Maybe there could have been a transgender npc who asks you to find the belt of masculinity/femininity for them. Then if you asked them why, they would actually have some context to explain that they're trans. Or why not make the trans character a full on party member? You could have Jaheira call Mizhena out on being an abomination against nature (choice words from my own mother by the way), and maybe over your travels the two characters bond and Jaheira learns to accept and appreciate Mizhena for being who they are. And if you actually made Mizhena fun, witty, and interesting, and had good dialogue and interactions along the way, maybe somebody in real life would actually have better feelings towards transgender people after enjoying that quest line. Wouldn't that be something.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Those pelts... are they serious?

 

[Mustawd]

Yes referring to that Turkish guy was low, althoug having read the thread on Steam this guy may just be a world class troll of codexian magnificence, but than again he could be legit.

I've found it harder than usual to tell who is trolling in this debacle, started reading this one with a personal story about the BG sex change girdle giving them a "deep sense of personal investment" back in the day - and assumed it a was a Codexer or someone, then it turned into a legit post with some good points.

to that poster.

 

[Lacrymas]

Everything looks like shit in that screenshot, especially the water. I'm happy we won't get a BG3.

 

[Mustawd]

I wonder if the rating will stay this way...

 

[AwesomeButton]

And then I saw this: http://archive.is/tlJCs

And I was planning to suggest that they apologize for Scotts words in that interview...

That's the third big misstep Beamdog does in handling this, and I think it doesn't matter what they do from now on. Generally, you don't allow people who are not from the PR team to discuss anything. But in this case, the Marketing coordinator herself has no idea what planet she lives on...

For now, I think she has been doing a better job as a writer than as a Marketing coordinator... But I haven't seen that much of the game, so this is subject to change.

Holy crap, they should fire this Pennyway character immediately

I doubt that would help. But they should at least vocally distance themselves from his tweets.

As Jarpie said, even a godawful marketer would told them that 'here be dragonnes'.

This marketer says: "If they don't like it, then too bad"

Half the codex would have sex with a trans person if no one knew about it. This is an undisputed fact.

I am a bit skeptical of the validity of the data. I suspect many of those who would not have a sex with a tranny are too ashamed to admit it in front of those who would.

Lesson learned, tweet deleted.

You'll have to learn more lessons than that, sonny.
After all, "if they don't like it..."

Regarding the game:
- In all fairness, the refugee theme may have well been conceived long before the refugee crisis in Europe became a thing. I think you're seeing too much into it here.
- I'm past the initial dungeon and my impressions couldn't have been better as a matter of fact. Let's see if it turns to shit afterwards.
- The writing isn't in any way better or worse than what you can read in the BG games. Also, I suppose it takes only a real SJW to write a character as whiny, nagging and driveling as Imoen.


Corwin:
"If you can't admire our skill, at least accept their sacrifice."

 

[gunman]

The lack of dialogue options for the tranny encounter is totally flabbergasting. They had fitting lines already available that could just be wired in, such as:

Also they seem to change the UI with every patch (it's starting to look like a cheap mobile application), looks like they don't have a clue.

 

[Fry]

Just thought I'd point out that this anti-tranny crusade is already generating about 1000% more publicity than an IE-engine expansion would ever get normally. I'd expect to see a bunch of extra sales from outraged defenders of diversity.

 

[Mustawd]

I am a bit skeptical of the validity of the data.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/how-far-would-you-go-with-a-ladyboy.72711/

61% of those polled would at least french kiss a ladyboy. And since N > 30, I'm gonna say these data are valid.

 

[oldmanpaco]

I am a bit skeptical of the validity of the data.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/how-far-would-you-go-with-a-ladyboy.72711/

61% of those polled would at least french kiss a ladyboy. And since N > 30, I'm gonna say these data are valid.

Not sure about that. I'd do a ladyboy in the ass but would not french kiss one.

Also you seem inordinately obsessed with that poll.

 

[Echo Mirage]

I wonder if the rating will stay this way...

Not long. This morning it was mostly positive. So I expect the score to go so low it could limbo under a Persian rug.

 

[vonAchdorf]

I am a bit skeptical of the validity of the data.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/how-far-would-you-go-with-a-ladyboy.72711/

61% of those polled would at least french kiss a ladyboy. And since N > 30, I'm gonna say these data are valid.

So Beamdog did some market research on the Codex to get some inspiration what token and niche characters their target group wants and now wonder that it didn't work as planned?

 

[Lyric Suite]

I see Metatron hasn't answered my question. Mmmmmh.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

This is getting surreal, just saw an article about Minsc on Breitbart

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/...to-baldurs-gate-controversy-misses-the-point/

The problem with Minsc’s dig at #GamerGate isn’t that it breaks the fabled “Fourth Wall.” After all, Minsc is already making a jump through the fourth wall with his delightful pet Spelljammer reference. Heck, Baldur’s Gate is just as happy to reference The Bob Newhart Show and Monty Python as it is murder and betrayal.

Rather, the problem lies in Beamdog’s level of respect — or lack thereof — for a character that is deeply meaningful to an entire generation of gamers. Minsc is the lovable hamster-toting warrior of both Baldur’s Gate titles. His legacy extends into novelization and comic books, and he’s been praised by just about every conceivable gaming publication at one time or another. He’s an intellectual innocent, a gentle giant.

With one quip, they’ve turned that great big teddy bear of a hero into a passive-aggressive tool to insult a portion of their potential customers. It’s a cynical decision, and a needless one. It’s intentionally sarcastic and insulting, stooping to the tactics that people consistently ladle onto anyone who has ever participated in the #GamerGate conversation, without offering any useful rebuttal.

Not only is it grossly out of character for Minsc, it’s a little bit of the Internet’s ugliness that quite simply didn’t need to be there. Where the transgender character is an expression of the developer’s intentions toward inclusion, Minsc’s dig is designed to exclusion people with whom Beamdog disagrees. It’s trite, it’s catty, and it makes Beamdog’s other in-game statements come off as posturing rather than sincere.

Beamdog’s response to the controversy hasn’t been extremely constructive and suggests a very loose grasp on the heart of the problem. While the internet is quick to cry censorship for every locked forum topic, it’s well within Beamdog’s right to lock down arguments that devolve into personal attacks, even if it’s their product that has set the precedent.

Unfortunately, that’s not where it ends. Amber Scott’s interview with Kotaku on the creation of Dragonspear depicts a very shallow understanding of the property itself.

If there was something for the original Baldur’s Gate that just doesn’t mesh for modern day gamers like the sexism, [we tried to address that]. In the original there’s a lot of jokes at women’s expense. Or if not a lot, there’s a couple, like Safana was just a sex object in BG 1, and Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy. We were able to say, “No, that’s not really the kind of story we want to make.” In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don’t like that, then too bad.

Let’s take a closer look at this argument.

First off, Safan is less of a “sex object” than a classic femme fatale, with the martial skills to easily back up her swagger. She spins ludicrous tales of her past exploits as a matter of bravado, and her lack of trustworthiness is a theme that runs through both games. She’s confident, “sex-positive,” and capable, but she’s also flawed and inherently self-interested. Dismissing her character as a “sex object” is not only disingenuous, it’s thoughtless. Whether you dislike a character, or simply do not understand them, why not write another? Why dredge your way through someone else’s creative vision rather than make a statement of your own?

Jaheira is an even more glaring example. In the original games, Jaheira is a war refugee characterized by her jaded cynicism toward the fates of others. She isn’t willing to accept the protagonist as a sort of de facto savior. Instead she watches, critiques, then makes her own judgment. She is intelligent but cynical, hardened by traumatic experience, but utterly devoted to those for whom she cares. Labeling Jaheira as a stereotypical “nagging wife” suggests little respect or understanding of both the character and the world she inhabits.

Hacking apart characters created by your forebears is a disservice to the people who love them. Using the story’s most gentle character to make an exclusionary insult out of a casual conversation is a disservice to your other messages, and makes the whole thing feel petty. It’s just a bit of ugliness, added for sport.

Doing both of these things without any sort of understanding as to why it would antagonize devoted fans of the series, or worse intentionally antagonizing them, isn’t just tone-deaf, it’s the sort of jaded cynicism that Amber Scott decided should require a “way better personality upgrade.”

TechRaptor received a statement from Beamdog CEO Trent Oster that lambasts the pot-shots taken at Dragonspear without identifying or resolving the root of the complaint:

I find the controversy ridiculous. Yes, we have a transgendered character. I know a number of transgendered people and they are genuine, wonderful humans. Yes, we also have a character who cracks a joke about ethics. The original Baldur’s Gate had a whole sequence about the Bob Newhart show. If this generates controversy it makes a sad statement about the world we live in.

Oster reduces the backlash to being solely about identity politics, but the reality is that gamers have been waiting fifteen years (not counting the hack-and-slash spinoff Dark Alliance titles) for a new adventure in the Baldur’s Gate series. Expectations were high, and even some of the most ardent fans have been quite understandably dismayed to find character rewrites and needless insults of the audience in their long awaited homecoming. Being told that if they didn’t like it, “too bad,” hasn’t helped the situation.

Perhaps members of Beamdog have more in common with their projected perception of Jaheira than even they realize. Ironically, they might have avoided these pitfalls by better understanding the characters they’ve purchased.

 

[Mustawd]

Also you seem inordinately obsessed with that poll.

I admit that the whole thing breaks my brain a bit, and I've been looking to gather more research in order to understand it better. But hey, my obsession is now paying off to show the 'Dex's diversity!

 

[Immortal]

Now that the BG:EE Sale has ended it has slipped to Page 2..

SoD still hovering around Page 5..
That must really suck.. you throw on a 75% discount to push more expansion packs.. and everyone buys the original and ignores your expansion...

 

[pippin]

Now that the BG:EE Sale has ended it has slipped to Page 2..

SoD still hovering around Page 5..
That must really suck.. you throw on a 75% discount to push more expansion packs.. and everyone buys the original and ignores your expansion...

We should keep an eye on the cheevos. Even big games like Skyrim are barely played beyond the tutorial missions.

 

[Lacrymas]

I do wonder where they find these so-called writers. It's so obvious they haven't read a single serious book in their entire lives, and it's not only at Beamdog, Bioware and many others (*cough* Bethesda *cough*) who espouse the "we make stories" slogan are at fault too. Why do the writers themselves think they have the knowledge, expertise, skill and talent to BE writers? I've been thinking about these questions recently and I have no answer for any of them yet.

 

[Naveen]

Could you tell me in short what is this fuss about? The responses are many and text is overwhelming across the web. I don't understand situation and I don't have all the time to read it through.

A terribly written transexual cleric npc, Minsc being forced to say retarded anti-GG shit, a general suspicion of librul soapboxing (perhaps exaggerated,) and the main writer of the game, someone who has been quite vocal about inserting "inclusive" characters and fixing the (in her view) sexist bits of the original saga (every other consideration be damned) are the main problems*. I guess this probably would have been a non-issue 15 yeas ago, but the chaotic rules of Internet drama and years of social justice nonsense have created the conditions for a perfect shitstorm even if the rest of the game doesn't deserve it. Oh yeah, and Beamdog sucks at damage control and public relations. That was phase 1 and 2, phase 3 will happen in the coming days, when we'll see game bloggers journalists writing articles about how the game has been attacked by those horrible angry, reactionary male gamers, and why the only reason anyone could criticise the game is because they hate LGBTBBQ inclusivity.

*and bugs, bugs, multiplayer not working properly, and other things.

I do wonder where they find these so-called writers.

"I got the job thanks to a friend of a friend." Always.

 

[Hegel]

I do wonder where they find these so-called writers. It's so obvious they haven't read a single serious book in their entire lives, and it's not only at Beamdog, Bioware and many others (*cough* Bethesda *cough*) who espouse the "we make stories" slogan are at fault too. Why do the writers themselves think they have the knowledge, expertise, skill and talent to BE writers? I've been thinking about these questions recently and I have no answer for any of them yet.

$$ you get what you paid for.

 

[Jarpie]

I do wonder where they find these so-called writers. It's so obvious they haven't read a single serious book in their entire lives, and it's not only at Beamdog, Bioware and many others (*cough* Bethesda *cough*) who espouse the "we make stories" slogan are at fault too. Why do the writers themselves think they have the knowledge, expertise, skill and talent to BE writers? I've been thinking about these questions recently and I have no answer for any of them yet.

Like I've said before, it's because they can only get the worst hacks when it comes to writing.

Anyone with even small amount of talent will get contracts from film/tv/book/theathre. The rest who are too shit for anything else goes to gaming industry because it's only place where they can get employment.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Comparitativly not much did happen in the Firedorn Saga. No deleted reviews or somesuch, none or close to no (don't remember correctly) bans. They even allowed the original author to change the poem himself and the only official statement was *Look, we let the author change it himself. That makes it ok*.

So, yeah from that perspective this is waaaaay more entertaining.

Firedorn Saga - SJWs get content removed, GamerGate gets mad.
Mizhena Saga - GamerGate wants content removed?

It's a bit unfair that Obsidian got through it more-or-less completely unscathed while Beamdog might get completely trashed, but life is always harder when you're smaller.

This x 1,000.

Codexers railing on this in this thread should be embarrassed. I just met the transsexual or whatever they're called these days. It was a stupid NPC, but I've seen far, far worse in video games. It would have been nice to have been an asshole to her, but whatever. It didn't ruin my day. Get over it.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Like I've said before, it's because they can only get the worst hacks when it comes to writing.

Anyone with even small amount of talent will get contracts from film/tv/book/theathre. The rest who are too shit for anything else goes to gaming industry because it's only place where they can get employment.

I think there is another factor - the corrupt state of the media which leads to lack of solid criticism of games, which in turn leads to hacks having an easier time blending in with people who are generally coming from a tech background. Around programmers, it's easier to pass for a writer, as long as you have some degree in any of the humanities, and there are no real journalists or critics to call you out on your bullshit. At the same time, it's a prestigious job to have, better paid than writing articles for some clickbait site. That's why they are so insecure and cling to their jobs so much and get so enraged when someone challenges them. Because they know they suck at it, but are shit scared of losing the position.

I believe that's what they use the SJW cred for - an insurance that they'll have protection from the journos if they should happen to need some.

 

[Hegel]

Transgenderism and Beamdog's smugness aside, is the game any good? I assume it isn't if people are complaining about the details.

 

[Black]

I haven't seen anyone wanting the tranny removed.