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Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
This is getting surreal, just saw an article about Minsc on Breitbart :M

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/...to-baldurs-gate-controversy-misses-the-point/

The problem with Minsc’s dig at #GamerGate isn’t that it breaks the fabled “Fourth Wall.” After all, Minsc is already making a jump through the fourth wall with his delightful pet Spelljammer reference. Heck, Baldur’s Gate is just as happy to reference The Bob Newhart Show and Monty Python as it is murder and betrayal.

Rather, the problem lies in Beamdog’s level of respect — or lack thereof — for a character that is deeply meaningful to an entire generation of gamers. Minsc is the lovable hamster-toting warrior of both Baldur’s Gate titles. His legacy extends into novelization and comic books, and he’s been praised by just about every conceivable gaming publication at one time or another. He’s an intellectual innocent, a gentle giant.

With one quip, they’ve turned that great big teddy bear of a hero into a passive-aggressive tool to insult a portion of their potential customers. It’s a cynical decision, and a needless one. It’s intentionally sarcastic and insulting, stooping to the tactics that people consistently ladle onto anyone who has ever participated in the #GamerGate conversation, without offering any useful rebuttal.

Not only is it grossly out of character for Minsc, it’s a little bit of the Internet’s ugliness that quite simply didn’t need to be there. Where the transgender character is an expression of the developer’s intentions toward inclusion, Minsc’s dig is designed to exclusion people with whom Beamdog disagrees. It’s trite, it’s catty, and it makes Beamdog’s other in-game statements come off as posturing rather than sincere.

Beamdog’s response to the controversy hasn’t been extremely constructive and suggests a very loose grasp on the heart of the problem. While the internet is quick to cry censorship for every locked forum topic, it’s well within Beamdog’s right to lock down arguments that devolve into personal attacks, even if it’s their product that has set the precedent.

Unfortunately, that’s not where it ends. Amber Scott’s interview with Kotaku on the creation of Dragonspear depicts a very shallow understanding of the property itself.

If there was something for the original Baldur’s Gate that just doesn’t mesh for modern day gamers like the sexism, [we tried to address that]. In the original there’s a lot of jokes at women’s expense. Or if not a lot, there’s a couple, like Safana was just a sex object in BG 1, and Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy. We were able to say, “No, that’s not really the kind of story we want to make.” In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don’t like that, then too bad.

Let’s take a closer look at this argument.

First off, Safan is less of a “sex object” than a classic femme fatale, with the martial skills to easily back up her swagger. She spins ludicrous tales of her past exploits as a matter of bravado, and her lack of trustworthiness is a theme that runs through both games. She’s confident, “sex-positive,” and capable, but she’s also flawed and inherently self-interested. Dismissing her character as a “sex object” is not only disingenuous, it’s thoughtless. Whether you dislike a character, or simply do not understand them, why not write another? Why dredge your way through someone else’s creative vision rather than make a statement of your own?

Jaheira is an even more glaring example. In the original games, Jaheira is a war refugee characterized by her jaded cynicism toward the fates of others. She isn’t willing to accept the protagonist as a sort of de facto savior. Instead she watches, critiques, then makes her own judgment. She is intelligent but cynical, hardened by traumatic experience, but utterly devoted to those for whom she cares. Labeling Jaheira as a stereotypical “nagging wife” suggests little respect or understanding of both the character and the world she inhabits.

Hacking apart characters created by your forebears is a disservice to the people who love them. Using the story’s most gentle character to make an exclusionary insult out of a casual conversation is a disservice to your other messages, and makes the whole thing feel petty. It’s just a bit of ugliness, added for sport.

Doing both of these things without any sort of understanding as to why it would antagonize devoted fans of the series, or worse intentionally antagonizing them, isn’t just tone-deaf, it’s the sort of jaded cynicism that Amber Scott decided should require a “way better personality upgrade.”

TechRaptor received a statement from Beamdog CEO Trent Oster that lambasts the pot-shots taken at Dragonspear without identifying or resolving the root of the complaint:

I find the controversy ridiculous. Yes, we have a transgendered character. I know a number of transgendered people and they are genuine, wonderful humans. Yes, we also have a character who cracks a joke about ethics. The original Baldur’s Gate had a whole sequence about the Bob Newhart show. If this generates controversy it makes a sad statement about the world we live in.

Oster reduces the backlash to being solely about identity politics, but the reality is that gamers have been waiting fifteen years (not counting the hack-and-slash spinoff Dark Alliance titles) for a new adventure in the Baldur’s Gate series. Expectations were high, and even some of the most ardent fans have been quite understandably dismayed to find character rewrites and needless insults of the audience in their long awaited homecoming. Being told that if they didn’t like it, “too bad,” hasn’t helped the situation.

Perhaps members of Beamdog have more in common with their projected perception of Jaheira than even they realize. Ironically, they might have avoided these pitfalls by better understanding the characters they’ve purchased.

Not especially surprised, they have this one writer that writes about SJW in games, and who might even be a member of the :mrpresident:Codex.

But I do think the gaming community is making a huge fucking deal out of the amount of SJW in this game, despite it not being as much as, say, Dragon Age Inquisition.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Transgenderism and Beamdog's smugness aside, is the game any good? I assume it isn't if people are complaining about the details.

Even an edgy guy like meanwhileinpoland gave it a 3/5 so it's probably decent enough.

The next big drama thread will be when we end up publishing a fairly positive review
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,285
Transgenderism and Beamdog's smugness aside, is the game any good? I assume it isn't if people are complaining about the details.

It is better than PoE from what i understand. :M

No thanks to Beamdog of course. Just D&D being superior to the shit Sawyer came up with.
 

Trodat

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
795
Location
Finland
Transgenderism and Beamdog's smugness aside, is the game any good? I assume it isn't if people are complaining about the details.

Everything related to SJW's and political correctness in general is a red flag for the Codex, a license to kill so to speak. Forget all of that, I've been enjoying my time, there are some cool fights, exploration and so on.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,962
Transgenderism and Beamdog's smugness aside, is the game any good? I assume it isn't if people are complaining about the details.
Shit writing that falls down to abysmal levels of quality every now and then. decent encounter design, tho a bit shit because you will find enemies that are downscaled on level from their monster manual counterpart. and well, its more like BG 1.5, linear as ToB. If you want more BG, and dont care about the quality, or want more combat goodness, then go for it. Also be adviced, the game features new bugs and it seems to be riddled with them.
Id still advice you to get the RELOADED version.
oh, its miles better than PoE, if that matters to you.

But I do think the gaming community is making a huge fucking deal out of the amount of SJW in this game, despite it not being as much as, say, Dragon Age Inquisition.
No one that matters gave a shit about DA:I, a lot of old gamers were looking forward to SoD (for some reason i cant understand yet). Watching the thing they love turn into a bioware crapfest, then watching the defilers proudly tell you to fuck off if you dont like it... well, thats just begging for it.
 
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Quatlo

Arcane
Joined
Nov 15, 2013
Messages
956
I do wonder where they find these so-called writers. It's so obvious they haven't read a single serious book in their entire lives, and it's not only at Beamdog, Bioware and many others (*cough* Bethesda *cough*) who espouse the "we make stories" slogan are at fault too. Why do the writers themselves think they have the knowledge, expertise, skill and talent to BE writers? I've been thinking about these questions recently and I have no answer for any of them yet.
You show the HR people that have no fucking idea what are they supposed to do you resume. you show them that you have written internet-famous "stories" and numerous "books" (all self published in monstrous quantity of 10)
They read that, think they have found A PERFECT CANDIDATE for the posistion and hire you. Then you can become smug genious writer "fixing" other writers mistakes.

Also this, someone posted it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-kruger_effect
They are hacks thinking they are hot shit.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-kruger_effect



I haven't seen anyone wanting the tranny removed.

He drops Morgenstern +2, leave him alone!
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,734
Pathfinder: Wrath
You show the HR people that have no fucking idea what are they supposed to do you resume. you show them that you have written internet-famous "stories" and numerous "books" (all self published in monstrous quantity of 10)
They read that, think they have found A PERFECT CANDIDATE for the posistion and hire you. Then you can become smug genious writer "fixing" other writers mistakes.

Also this, someone posted it before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-kruger_effect
They are hacks thinking they are hot shit.

I posted that :p So, total inadequacy from all parties involved, got it.
 

Trodat

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
795
Location
Finland
It's pretty sad honestly. You can't be a 'shit' programmer and have a job, because a programmer who can't program isn't very useful. Then again you can be a shit writer because 'artistic freedom and 'taste' and connections and lack of talent.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
99,654
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
If you guys want to know where Amber Scott came from you can just check: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amber-scott-286a3168

Publishing and Marketing Coordinator
Beamdog
October 2015 – Present (7 months)Edmonton, Canada Area
As the Publishing and Marketing Coordinator, I'm looking to connect with others in the video game and roleplaying game development field. If you want to meet at a convention, connect on social media, chat developer-to-developer, use Beamdog merchandise in a promotion (and offer yours for consideration), or make any other B2B connection, shoot me an email.

I handle the social media and convention presence of Beamdog and oversee all our published materials including manuals, marketing messages, storefront text (Steam, GooglePlay, iOS), and blog posts. I also manage our customer service and localization efforts.

I'm always happy to talk about my work so feel free to connect with me!

Writer
Beamdog
March 2014 – Present (2 years 2 months)Edmonton, Canada Area
My days are filled with dreaming up storylines and quests for video games, detailing characters, challenges, and rewards, and then writing dialogue for the game. I use my grognard background to help me design quests and write dialogue that fits in with our games' style and structure, as well as ensuring that my writing is consistent with the licensed setting. In meetings I help brainstorm details for our Next Big Thing and offer my perspective from 10+ years of industry freelancing.

(Open)2 projects
  • Siege of Dragonspear
    I wrote critical path and subquest content for Siege of Dragonspear, a new expansion for Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition. I...View

  • Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition
    I wrote a small amount of dialogue and promotional materials for Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition.View
Writer
Self-Employed
August 2004 – Present (11 years 9 months)
I am a freelance writer in the roleplaying game industry, working with such companies as Paizo Publishing, Wizards of the Coast, and White Wolf.

(Open)5 projects
  • The Worldwound Incursion
    My first Adventure Path offering for Paizo Publishing is due out this August. I was responsible for providing an outline and...View

  • Shadow of the Sands
    I wrote the six-part fiction series "Shadow of the Sands" which appeared in the MUMMY'S MASK adventure path by Paizo...View

  • Whispers in the Wasteland
    I wrote the six-part fiction series "Whispers in the Wasteland" that appeared in the IRON GODS adventure path by Paizo...View

  • Secrets of the Sphinx
    I wrote issue four of the MUMMY'S MASK adventure path, "Secrets of the Sphinx." I was responsible for detailing an outline,...View

  • Chronicle of the Righteous
    This book is one of my solo projects completed for Paizo Publishing. I was responsible for writing approximately 42,000...View
Customer Service Manager
Planet Organic Health Corporation
April 2006 – July 2009 (3 years 4 months)Edmonton, Canada Area
I was the Customer Service Manager of the Jasper Avenue Planet Organic in Edmonton, Alberta. My job description encompassed managing the front end and around 10 cashiers, as well as performing daily bank reconciliations. I also took on the unofficial position of assistant store manager as needed. I conducted interviews and oversaw the hiring process for the store, created schedules, submitted payroll, and trained new employees (including supervisors).

In addition, I created and disseminated weekly sales reports and labour reports from POS data. I wrote a fire safety manual and holiday merchandising manual for the store. Weekly conference calls allowed me to coordinate strategy and operations between top management and front-line employees, and I designed and unrolled merchandising and sales plans at the store level.
 

GrainWetski

Arcane
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
5,366
Not especially surprised, they have this one writer that writes about SJW in games, and who might even be a member of the :mrpresident:Codex.

But I do think the gaming community is making a huge fucking deal out of the amount of SJW in this game, despite it not being as much as, say, Dragon Age Inquisition.

It's entirely because this is an expansion for Baldur's Gate. If they had just made their own little shitty agenda pushing game like they should've, nobody would've cared at all. Too bad they actually realized they're not talented enough to make their own game and went ahead and took a ride on an old little piggy.
 

Hegel

Arcane
Joined
May 12, 2009
Messages
3,274
Don't be too hard on the girl. She might come off as terribly smug and self–righteous, but if that stoner dialogue and the transgender npc are the lowest point, the game isn't that bad. I mean, 8bit pixel games are selling thousands of copies, give Beamdog some credit.
 

Trodat

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
795
Location
Finland
There is some good writing to be found in adventure games more so than in rpg's, so it's not total lack of talent, but maybe writers aren't that interested in rpg's.
 

Space Insect

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
868
Location
Shaggai
Comparitativly not much did happen in the Firedorn Saga. No deleted reviews or somesuch, none or close to no (don't remember correctly) bans. They even allowed the original author to change the poem himself and the only official statement was *Look, we let the author change it himself. That makes it ok*.

So, yeah from that perspective this is waaaaay more entertaining.

Firedorn Saga - SJWs get content removed, GamerGate gets mad.
Mizhena Saga - GamerGate wants content removed?

It's a bit unfair that Obsidian got through it more-or-less completely unscathed while Beamdog might get completely trashed, but life is always harder when you're smaller.

This x 1,000.

Codexers railing on this in this thread should be embarrassed. I just met the transsexual or whatever they're called these days. It was a stupid NPC, but I've seen far, far worse in video games. It would have been nice to have been an asshole to her, but whatever. It didn't ruin my day. Get over it.

It's not just about the tranny. It is also about the way the devs have handled it and shit upon both their customers and fans BG.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,962
There is some good writing to be found in adventure games more so than in rpg's, so it's not total lack of talent, but maybe writers aren't that interested in rpg's.
You dont need a writer when it comes to RPGs, you need a DM.
 

Gay-Lussac

Arcane
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
7,563
Location
Your mom
As I gather, people for some reason harbored a hope for BG3 made by Beamdog, so they wanted to see good in this interquel. It's their prerogative, sure, but I wonder if our few fans (ArchAngel , Gay-Lussac and others) are judging the product on its own merit, and not due to said hopes.

I'm not a fan, I haven't even played it yet. But I'm certainly not going to have one retarded minor character with 5 lines stop me from enjoying what might otherwise be a decent game, that's all I've been saying from the beggining.

Having seen some of the original content in BG:EE, I didn't even have high hopes for it, but most of the reviews from people who have actually played the game (1% of the people talking about it) seem positive, if lukewarm. That is, at least the ones that don't completely sperg out about the tranny and the Minsc reference I would otherwise have never even understood in the first place.
 

Space Insect

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
868
Location
Shaggai
We need a Roxor review to truly determine if SoD is more fun that POE.
 

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