Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lacrymas]

It is less about Bad Builds and more about Freedom of Failure that was systematically weeded out of any "popular" RPGs that hope to attract casual crowd alike to PnP's drama clubs.

More like newb traps that you'll avoid on your second character already. PnP doesn't work like a video game, if the players have created sub-optimal builds (or selected bad classes) the DM will adapt the campaign to suit their characters. There is no such thing in a video game and that's why balance is so difficult. Do you balance the game around the worst possible builds or the best possible builds? Something in the middle? Which middle? etc. You can't talk about bad builds in a PnP context the same was as in a video game.

 

[Cyberarmy]

DM will adapt the campaign to suit their characters.

There are DM s like that? O_O

 

[Ontopoly]

Literally close enough?

Putting a troll face after every post doesn't automatically make you clever or cheeky or some master troll. It just makes you an idiot that's too afraid to commit to what you're saying.

Can you ignore not a user, but any conversation between two specific users on this forum?

Asking for a friend.

No but there's a way to stop you from being bugged by it. It's called not being a bitch

Swear to god people who genuinely think they are smart for being able to beat a single-player video game are the most sadcringe people. It's not difficult to beat Pathfinder on the highest difficulty or Dark Souls, or whichever old/new game you want to pick as a metric for challenge. It's just a question of how much time are you willing to spend to learn the system. I can appreciate a competitive FPS/RTS/MOBA player that's in the top 1% of their game but at least they have made a successful career at it and are making a living of it.

It's not about how hard the game is or how many people are able to beat it or how smart it makes you. You're right in the how much time and effort you're willing to put in part though and the game making you learn it's system is good. It's also about mechanics that don't baby you and hold you accountable. I want to play a game that requires me to learn and then expects me to apply that knowledge in interesting ways rather than teach me then do it for me anyways. I also want the mechanics to set up a challenge for me and make me solve them, not just be there in the background. Pikmin is a child's game about collecting fruit and it's more hardcore than most of these games.

 

[Nortar]

DM will adapt the campaign to suit their characters.

There are DM s like that? O_O

If there are such players, why would not there be matching DMs?
It all depends on how you play your tabletop games.
For some groups it's always a challenge between DM and players. But if you're not into munchki.. minmaxing and optimization, what are you doing in such a group?
And for others it a shared adventure, not a survival of a fittest test, so it would only be natural if DM seeing his players created 1-hp mages and weak-for-armor fighters, won't send them fighting the Tarrasque right away, but instead lead them on a "bring a cat down from a tree" epic quest or something like that.

 

[Ontopoly]

DM will adapt the campaign to suit their characters.

There are DM s like that? O_O

If there are such players, why would not there be matching DMs?
It all depends on how you play your tabletop games.
For some groups it's always a challenge between DM and players. But if you're not into munchki.. minmaxing and optimization, what are you doing in such a group?
And for others it a shared adventure, not a survival of a fittest test, so it would only be natural if DM seeing his players created 1-hp mages and weak-for-armor fighters, won't send them fighting the Tarrasque right away, but instead lead them on a "bring a cat down from a tree" epic quest or something like that.

I'd rather find a gm that would crush me for making such a stupid decision. The problem with dnd is permanently killing someone is too big of a deal so DMs are afraid to do it too much. Nobody wants to put in that much preparation just to have it all go to waste. At least that was my experience when I played table top for a while.

 

[Cael]

DM will adapt the campaign to suit their characters.

There are DM s like that? O_O

If there are such players, why would not there be matching DMs?
It all depends on how you play your tabletop games.
For some groups it's always a challenge between DM and players. But if you're not into munchki.. minmaxing and optimization, what are you doing in such a group?
And for others it a shared adventure, not a survival of a fittest test, so it would only be natural if DM seeing his players created 1-hp mages and weak-for-armor fighters, won't send them fighting the Tarrasque right away, but instead lead them on a "bring a cat down from a tree" epic quest or something like that.

I'd rather find a gm that would crush me for making such a stupid decision. The problem with dnd is permanently killing someone is too big of a deal so DMs are afraid to do it too much. Nobody wants to put in that much preparation just to have it all go to waste. At least that was my experience when I played table top for a while.

I have killed level 1 characters for cornering an innocent bear in her cave for no reason other than "He won't kill us! Ecks-pee!!!"

Suck brown bear and die, idiot.

 

[jackofshadows]

By the way, I wonder how Larian will deal with the difficulty options. In DOS1/2 they chose rather clumsy approach, which is still kinda worked (for a while).

They cannot simply bloat enemies here since it's DnD but they will probably just add more or them for most encounters.

 

[Cael]

By the way, I wonder how Larian will deal with the difficulty options. In DOS1/2 they chose rather clumsy approach, which is still kinda worked (for a while).

They cannot simply bloat enemies here since it's DnD but they will probably just add more or them for most encounters.

Why not? Some dumb cunts did it for cuckfinder:bloatmaker.

 

[Daidre]

You can specialize in a weapon that barely exists: you just need to use that weapon. Since it's a "flavor" thing that doesn't impact rules, your weapon of choice can be anything.

Heh, I decided to check if you even could specialize in weapon in 5e. Like, get some attack bonus or damage when using Longswords, for example. And... Nope!

I admit my sources are pretty limited, but from what I've seen you just get a bunch of class weapon you are proficient with and could add some with feats and that is it.
Only feat (and feats are optional rule) that allows you to wield some particular weapon better is:

Polearm Master - You can make an extra attack with a polearm weapon, and make an opportunity attack if a creature enter your reach.
And it stands out in the rules like a sore thumb. I guess some designer for 5e really liked his pointy sticks.

Same with skill points. They were completely axed. Just choose 2-3 things from your class list you are good at. And character will always get a bonus depending his character level to the rolls.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

By the way, I wonder how Larian will deal with the difficulty options. In DOS1/2 they chose rather clumsy approach, which is still kinda worked (for a while).

They cannot simply bloat enemies here since it's DnD but they will probably just add more or them for most encounters.

DOS1 & 2 are some of the few RPGs where the hardest difficulty(tactician) includes rebalanced encounters and improved AI

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Same with skill points. They were completely axed

Good.

I intended to revise OAD&D, but not into one that graftet skill-based play onto a class based vehicle. I think that brings the worst of both system types. In the long term I don’t think I’d have made many changes in the AD&D game, only those necessary to allow the core rules to apply to more genres.

— ENWorld, Q&A with Gary Gygax part 4, 2003

 

[DraQ]

It's not about addition existing. It's about what you add. But I wouldn't expect you to know what's being added when you play Larian trash that hides as many of the numbers as possible and only shows you a percentage and a flashy damage number because 90 percent of their audience are declined in spirit and kind.

Actually Larian is *very* enthusiastic about addition, but I think their other games will do a better job indulging you.

And if you just have a plus sign fetish, then don't worry - those will be in 'cause DnD.

 

[Ontopoly]

DOS1 & 2 are some of the few RPGs where the hardest difficulty(tactician) includes rebalanced encounters and improved AI

Also on this list: pillars of eternity.

 

[User0001]

Swear to god people who genuinely think they are smart for being able to beat a single-player video game are the most sadcringe people. It's not difficult to beat Pathfinder on the highest difficulty or Dark Souls, or whichever old/new game you want to pick as a metric for challenge. It's just a question of how much time are you willing to spend to learn the system

Agree

I can appreciate a competitive FPS/RTS/MOBA player that's in the top 1% of their game but at least they have made a successful career at it and are making a living of it.

Disagree

 

[jackofshadows]

By the way, I wonder how Larian will deal with the difficulty options. In DOS1/2 they chose rather clumsy approach, which is still kinda worked (for a while).

They cannot simply bloat enemies here since it's DnD but they will probably just add more or them for most encounters.

DOS1 & 2 are some of the few RPGs where the hardest difficulty(tactician) includes rebalanced encounters and improved AI

Technically, you are correct. In practice though - bitch, please. "Rebalanced encounters" usually means slapping few more mobs here and/or there (sometimes on the second turn) and I'm not sure about AI improvements, it's still trying rather to entertain, not to create challenge. Focusing summons, collecting AoO, casting fancy shit instead of finishing some of your party members off...

 

[Ontopoly]

The hardest games to get through are the games that don't appeal to us.

 

[thesheeep]

I admit my sources are pretty limited, but from what I've seen you just get a bunch of class weapon you are proficient with and could add some with feats and that is it.

Same with skill points. They were completely axed. Just choose 2-3 things from your class list you are good at. And character will always get a bonus depending his character level to the rolls.

Exactly that.
5E completely blows at offering player choices in character builds in actual rules. Weapons? Automatically given by class. Skills? You select what skills you are "good" at and those will have higher rolls. Stats? Have always been a pseudo-choice in DnD.
Feats? There are not even 60 of them in total, spread over multiple books: https://www.aidedd.org/dnd-filters/feats.php
And all they really do is reinforce an already existing strength of a character, not adding anything really interesting.
It really is as I said, you make two choices, one at level 1, another at level 3, and the rest of the time character advancement is pretty much autopilot - though spellcasters do get to make some kind of choice more often...*

The only way to spice things up and realize non-standard character concepts is multiclassing, and that really does allow for some flexibility.
However, I never liked multiclassing, as it always ends up with a character that is simply less good at what they do primarily than a single-classed character.
And fighter2/wizard4/rogue8 reads like some chemical formula, not something that represents a character to roleplay...
I guess that's a downside of a system so heavily focused on classes instead of being freeform, but even then 3.5E managed to do it better.

Combat itself is actually pretty good in 5E - overly simple with its advantage/disadvantage system, sure, but it has a good flow and is pretty fast.
That's why I'm actually looking forward to this, I can see an adaptation working fairly well with good encounter design. And in a combat-focused PC game, I don't really care much about the "roleplay" factor to begin with. I mostly just want to see builds in action.

* This is quite the tangent, but I'm convinced by now that this incredible ease of creating characters has lead to the phenomenon of online PnP (via roll20, etc.) having crazy problems of finding stable groups. People just drop out after a session or two like crazy. Ghosting groups is more normal than actually sticking to a group.
And with character creation taking mere minutes, it's not a wonder. Not like you are losing any investment of time when you just drop out of a group, no dedication required.
This is really something I witnessed only while playing 5E. Other, more complicated and involved systems, do not have this problem and generally have way more reliable players.

 

[Elex]

Can you make even a single example of "build planning" in Baldur's Gate that goes deeper than "I'm gonna select this race and this class"? I guess you can select your weapon, but that can be considered "build planning" only if you are mentally impaired.

It still allows you to make 1 HP mage, specialize in weapon that barely exist in the game or make warrior who is unable to wear a metal armor due to its weight.

Much better than "we should remove all ability scores penalties and drastically limit bonuses to avoid making our players sad farther into campaign" approach of 5e.

you don’t know how stuff work you just google and read stuff you have no idea how it work and why.

what 5e cut on purpose is the splatbook bloat with tons of unbalanced subclass and feats.

this is the RPG equivalent of a nanny state
"We're too incompetent to use this properly therefore you are too so we got rid of it"

No this is :

“we release a new class every 1-2 years or a book with new subclasses after multiple beta version, beta testing and feedbacks from the community instead of rushing new products with zero testing just for printing a new book”

 

[Elex]

I'd rather find a gm that would crush me for making such a stupid decision. The problem with dnd is permanently killing someone is too big of a deal so DMs are afraid to do it too much. Nobody wants to put in that much preparation just to have it all go to waste. At least that was my experience when I played table top for a while.

You know what happen when a DM kill a player character?

nothing, the player just take another character from the pile and play it.

 

[DraQ]

The original Baldur's Gate is the greatest D&D-based RPG of all-time, and the 4th-greatest RPG of all-time.

It makes the Goldbox games seem like pieces of shit in comparison.

Read this authoritative retrospective, and despair [link].

There, there.
I'm sure someone will read your blog.
Eventually.

 

[fantadomat]

The original Baldur's Gate is the greatest D&D-based RPG of all-time, and the 4th-greatest RPG of all-time.

It makes the Goldbox games seem like pieces of shit in comparison.

Read this authoritative retrospective, and despair [link].

There, there.
I'm sure someone will read your blog.
Eventually.

You are just butthurt that you lack this authoritative retrospective!

 

[DraQ]

And we are supposed to be excited about CRPG adaption of the rules that built around "imagination" and "creativity" of the diverse drama club that current gen of PnP players turned into?

cRPG adaptation of PnP rules is going to be a tricky proposal no matter what. And parts where PnP systems indulge in highly complicated rules are not necessarily the parts where cRPGs need highly specific ones.
At least there is hope that with simpler ruleset there will be less to unfuck for cRPG adaptation.

Who hate math, complicated rules, spreadsheets, build planning, challenging combat and combat in general? (And probably any challenge in general too, since failure makes them feel bad so it is bad design)?

You might be projecting.

Spoiler

You won't out-sperg me dweeb-boy so don't even try.

 

[DraQ]

More like newb traps that you'll avoid on your second character already. PnP doesn't work like a video game, if the players have created sub-optimal builds (or selected bad classes) the DM will adapt the campaign to suit their characters. There is no such thing in a video game and that's why balance is so difficult. Do you balance the game around the worst possible builds or the best possible builds? Something in the middle? Which middle? etc. You can't talk about bad builds in a PnP context the same was as in a video game.

It's one of those things 90% of the Codex just doesn't grok.

 

[fantadomat]

More like newb traps that you'll avoid on your second character already. PnP doesn't work like a video game, if the players have created sub-optimal builds (or selected bad classes) the DM will adapt the campaign to suit their characters. There is no such thing in a video game and that's why balance is so difficult. Do you balance the game around the worst possible builds or the best possible builds? Something in the middle? Which middle? etc. You can't talk about bad builds in a PnP context the same was as in a video game.

It's one of those things 90% of the Codex just doesn't grok.

Muh,most times i just play as 18 in everything,after all i like to roleplay my self. Sad that in the modern D&D games you have set amount of points and have to cheat for the 18 in everything. In the older ones i could just spend half an hour rerolling shit till i get it.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yes, your penchant for cheating is well documented, fanta.