Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 RELEASE THREAD

[dukeofwoodberry]

Lore bard isn't going to have the necessary beef to get in close and apply spirit guardians like light cleric.

And I find both those items very powerful on life cleric. Generic high level cleric spells are very useful, not sure why you think otherwise.

What beef? They both have the same HP, light cleric has no heavy armor proficiency either. Luminous armor is the only item where a lvl5-6 cleric will have the advantage over lore bard for this specific build, after that until the endgame one level dip for heavy armor will bring the bard ahead of cleric anyway. Thinking about it, some cleric kits having heavy armor proficiency may be their only saving grace, as they also have full caster progression and some adventuring benefits like resistance etc.

My argument here is not that nothing in the cleric kit works. Yes I've abused upcasted aid and heroes feast from hirelings as well (never bothered with warding bonds, especially with gale's camp immortality). I'm saying that any benefit the cleric brings to the table as an active party member, especially in the late game, can be surpassed by powerful kits/combinations that enable smoother gameplay and easier combats. I can't say the same for fighters, bards, sorcerers, barbarians or paladins, they all have a unique mechanic around which you can make a powerful build. Druids and monks with tavern brawler have certain advantages and can even be built for specific use cases to provide almost equal value, hunters and wizards can either be good dips or backbones of powerful builds, and warlock is kinda not my flavor but not so weak when correctly built either. But a cleric brings nothing unique to the table, just like the rogue it is a class only worth of a fews levels dipping for whatever purpose of the main build.

This is mainly due to the concentration mechanic, where powerful buff spells are limited to one per caster. Now if the creators of 5e have added something to the cleric class (aura buffs/debuffs or a late game ability that enables 2 concentrations at a time etc. only available to the cleric) , they may have been uniquely powerful. Now you have druids or bards to cast heroes feast, freedom of movement or spirit guardians. And with benefits from their own kits, these classes outshine the cleric at every step.

I am talking about honor mode and trampling enemies on the first turn of course. You can play a cleric providing minor buffs and utility to your other 3 party members who actually pull the load, and feel good about the added hp from aid or the bonuses from bless. But what cleric brings to the table does not change the gameplay dramatically enough to warrant their use, as it does in 3.5e games. So instead of using a cleric, I use a bard (hell my last playthrough had 2 bards, one lore bard/sorceror and one classic swords bard fighter archer with acuity) , and swiped the floor with my enemies.

Medium armor and shield is a pretty sizable AC difference especially since our dexterity will probably be 14 in this build (perfect for medium armor.) You could try a 1 level fighter dip on bard which would further delay your magical secrets and spirit guardians until level 7. Versus getting spirit guardians at level 5. Fighter/lore bard might be a bit better eventually but comes online later.

Heavy armor is definitely a big selling point for the cleric class. You can't just gloss that over. A full caster that can wear heavy armor and shield proficiency too. Cleric is most definitely not under powered. I was recently complaining about charisma based casters being OP especially Sorcerer and Bard. But cleric is better than wizard and druid imo.

Cleric is amazing as a dip for heavy armor proficiency, shield/weapon profs and domain feature at level 1. Tempest domain is also part of the multi in some top tier builds.

Swords bard multis are absolutely broken to the point of making the game unfun. If you're comparing almost any class in the game to that it's going to look bad.

 

[Old Hans]

Cleric is amazing as a dip for heavy armor proficiency

I always feel like a dirty cheat when I do that.

 

[axedice]

Cleric is amazing as a dip for heavy armor proficiency, shield/weapon profs and domain feature at level 1. Tempest domain is also part of the multi in some top tier builds.

And thats it. That was one of the points I was trying to make. That cleric is not the backbone of any powerful build, but a small dip for some. Just like rogues.

Medium armor and shield is a pretty sizable AC difference especially since our dexterity will probably be 14 in this build (perfect for medium armor.) You could try a 1 level fighter dip on bard which would further delay your magical secrets and spirit guardians until level 7. Versus getting spirit guardians at level 5. Fighter/lore bard might be a bit better eventually but comes online later.

Another point that I was making. Yes for that very specific build you can find items and spec to radiating orb two levels earlier. And yet starting at lvl7 it will be weaker to continue. Besides, I never have less than 16dex on any character, including heavy armor wearers due to initiative being one of the most important stats in the game. Have a group of min 8 initiative characters (16 dex & alert , not even counting initiative bonuses from barb/gloom or items) , and group movement in the first round wins half of the battle already.

Heavy armor is definitely a big selling point for the cleric class. You can't just gloss that over. A full caster that can wear heavy armor and shield proficiency too. Cleric is most definitely not under powered. I was recently complaining about charisma based casters being OP especially Sorcerer and Bard. But cleric is better than wizard and druid imo.

Swords bard multis are absolutely broken to the point of making the game unfun. If you're comparing almost any class in the game to that it's going to look bad.

Cleric is underpowered in that there is nothing the class offers as a unique ability. It is only a dip for a proficiency that comes with some spells that "can" be useful. Druid is an excellent melee class due to tavern brawler, str based animal forms dominate early game and owlbear is quite possibly one of the best mid game melees one shotting even bosses with jump under specific conditions. Abjuration wizard's arcane ward is a build in itself, and portent die from diviner wizards is even more powerful than cutting words.

As for bard, yes it is the most powerful class in the game due to full spellcaster progression with either swords archer version ring/helmet spell DC combo , or with 6 lvl lore bard bonus spells. But lets take a look at other classes that impact combat with their unique abilities :

Barbarian Throwzerker : Even in honor mode without DRS, it is has the most damage at early levels. Not as competitive late game, but still a solid choice. Also no save prones.
Barbarian Wildheart : Tigerheart with wolverine aspect is hands down the best melee build in the game. Bleeding enemies are automatically maimed? A single source of prone, and anything not an undead/construct is out of combat, including legendary bosses. Combined with reverbration items, this build dominates encounters starting from lvl6 by itself and still very powerful late game.
Fighter Battlemaster : Lots of CC with either disarm or trip, bonuses to party members and very high attack bonus. 3 attacks per action is nothing to scoff at either.
Fighter Eldritch Knight : Best dps in the game with ranged builds, swords bard is only better due to CC options.
Fighter Champion : Only good as a dip, but the best dip for crit fishing builds.
Open Hand Monk : Second best dps in the game. Without illithid fly, would have been the best mobility class in the game as well. Incredibly powerful starting from lvl4.
Paladin : The smite mechanic is just incredible. While better as 2lvl dip with swords bard, base class still has powerful auras that justify going further.
Ranger Gloomstalker : Has so many uses in multiclassing either ranged or melee. Unlike assassin, this kit is also useful in boss encounters.
Ranger Beastmaster : Overall solid through leveling, abuses the entire battlefield at lvl 11 when combined with party blind immunity.
Sorceror : Metamagic. I find it extremely weird that wizards don't have access to metamagic in 5e. Also wtf with charisma to spell damage at lvl6? You can deal 700+ damage in a turn with fire variant. Either kill all bosses in a single turn (other than the two fire immune ones) , or kill a few enemies and CC others. Sorcerer is just bonkers late game. Also has access to counterspell. Like wtf
Wizard : Above mentioned diviner with portent is pretty solid. Combine with sorcerer for more power. While arcane ward is undoubtedly powerful, I just don't like the playstyle. Has counterspell.
Warlock : Eeeeh I don't like having access to only two spells per combat. Hadar is good, melee locks are not bad with the correct items either. Dips are pretty solid, has counterspell.


I look at all these kits mentioned above with their unique abilities, and clerics offer nothing thats stands out. Yes they are good dips for spellcasting builds for heavy armor + shield proficiency (which isn't always necessary) and thats about it. Maybe tempest cleric for storm sorcerer, but even that is subpar compared to fire sorcerers. Rogues are also similarly only good for dips, mainly thief for bonus action.

 

[Hydro]

Are you dimwits seriously discussing some elaborate builds for the game made with retards in mind challenge-wise?

 

[dukeofwoodberry]

Cleric is amazing as a dip for heavy armor proficiency, shield/weapon profs and domain feature at level 1. Tempest domain is also part of the multi in some top tier builds.

And thats it. That was one of the points I was trying to make. That cleric is not the backbone of any powerful build, but a small dip for some. Just like rogues.

Medium armor and shield is a pretty sizable AC difference especially since our dexterity will probably be 14 in this build (perfect for medium armor.) You could try a 1 level fighter dip on bard which would further delay your magical secrets and spirit guardians until level 7. Versus getting spirit guardians at level 5. Fighter/lore bard might be a bit better eventually but comes online later.

Another point that I was making. Yes for that very specific build you can find items and spec to radiating orb two levels earlier. And yet starting at lvl7 it will be weaker to continue. Besides, I never have less than 16dex on any character, including heavy armor wearers due to initiative being one of the most important stats in the game. Have a group of min 8 initiative characters (16 dex & alert , not even counting initiative bonuses from barb/gloom or items) , and group movement in the first round wins half of the battle already.

Heavy armor is definitely a big selling point for the cleric class. You can't just gloss that over. A full caster that can wear heavy armor and shield proficiency too. Cleric is most definitely not under powered. I was recently complaining about charisma based casters being OP especially Sorcerer and Bard. But cleric is better than wizard and druid imo.

Swords bard multis are absolutely broken to the point of making the game unfun. If you're comparing almost any class in the game to that it's going to look bad.

Cleric is underpowered in that there is nothing the class offers as a unique ability. It is only a dip for a proficiency that comes with some spells that "can" be useful. Druid is an excellent melee class due to tavern brawler, str based animal forms dominate early game and owlbear is quite possibly one of the best mid game melees one shotting even bosses with jump under specific conditions. Abjuration wizard's arcane ward is a build in itself, and portent die from diviner wizards is even more powerful than cutting words.

As for bard, yes it is the most powerful class in the game due to full spellcaster progression with either swords archer version ring/helmet spell DC combo , or with 6 lvl lore bard bonus spells. But lets take a look at other classes that impact combat with their unique abilities :

Barbarian Throwzerker : Even in honor mode without DRS, it is has the most damage at early levels. Not as competitive late game, but still a solid choice. Also no save prones.
Barbarian Wildheart : Tigerheart with wolverine aspect is hands down the best melee build in the game. Bleeding enemies are automatically maimed? A single source of prone, and anything not an undead/construct is out of combat, including legendary bosses. Combined with reverbration items, this build dominates encounters starting from lvl6 by itself and still very powerful late game.
Fighter Battlemaster : Lots of CC with either disarm or trip, bonuses to party members and very high attack bonus. 3 attacks per action is nothing to scoff at either.
Fighter Eldritch Knight : Best dps in the game with ranged builds, swords bard is only better due to CC options.
Fighter Champion : Only good as a dip, but the best dip for crit fishing builds.
Open Hand Monk : Second best dps in the game. Without illithid fly, would have been the best mobility class in the game as well. Incredibly powerful starting from lvl4.
Paladin : The smite mechanic is just incredible. While better as 2lvl dip with swords bard, base class still has powerful auras that justify going further.
Ranger Gloomstalker : Has so many uses in multiclassing either ranged or melee. Unlike assassin, this kit is also useful in boss encounters.
Ranger Beastmaster : Overall solid through leveling, abuses the entire battlefield at lvl 11 when combined with party blind immunity.
Sorceror : Metamagic. I find it extremely weird that wizards don't have access to metamagic in 5e. Also wtf with charisma to spell damage at lvl6? You can deal 700+ damage in a turn with fire variant. Either kill all bosses in a single turn (other than the two fire immune ones) , or kill a few enemies and CC others. Sorcerer is just bonkers late game. Also has access to counterspell. Like wtf
Wizard : Above mentioned diviner with portent is pretty solid. Combine with sorcerer for more power. While arcane ward is undoubtedly powerful, I just don't like the playstyle. Has counterspell.
Warlock : Eeeeh I don't like having access to only two spells per combat. Hadar is good, melee locks are not bad with the correct items either. Dips are pretty solid, has counterspell.


I look at all these kits mentioned above with their unique abilities, and clerics offer nothing thats stands out. Yes they are good dips for spellcasting builds for heavy armor + shield proficiency (which isn't always necessary) and thats about it. Maybe tempest cleric for storm sorcerer, but even that is subpar compared to fire sorcerers. Rogues are also similarly only good for dips, mainly thief for bonus action.

You can argue cleric isn't fun because there's no unique ability but it's certainly not weak. Life cleric with heavy armor and tons of Con putting blade ward on everyone is extremely strong not matter what you say. Yes generally it's better not to heal it combat but life cleric is the one exception where it's worth it. It's extremely valuable on honor mode especially to bail you out of a mistake.

You extoll the virtues of some other classes being strong at early to mid game while ignoring that's where cleric shines. They're the only class that gets guidance which is a busted ability. They get bless, command, sanctuary. And no its not necessarily better as a dip because you need high wisdom for something like command (which is a stupidly strong spell.)

Heroes feast is broken. It's pretty stupid you can cast it from camp from a hireling. I personally consider those exploits and don't use that kind of stuff.

Dexterity at 16 on everyone is very unnecessary. There's only a handful of fights where that matters. Being able to keep dex at 14 or lower and pump wisdom, con, grab other feats like alert and war caster is extremely nice. Might be difference of perspectives but I highly value my caster being able to wear heavy armor and a shield and they don't have to multi class or slow their spell progression to do it.

Lore bard is not broken in combat like swords bard. You're highly valuing magical secrets. I would say it's a high tier subclass because it's competitive in combat while being an elite skill money. I would say lore bard and life cleric are pretty close in combat utility depending on what you're looking for in your party, both do different things. Lore bard is also a great party face tho.

You're underrating some very nice reactions that clerics get too. Causing an ally to hit with their great weapon when they would have missed (war cleric) or causing an enemy to miss as a reaction are some very nice bonuses clerics get. Life and light as mono class to 12 would certainly be in top half if you ranked every single subclass.

 

[Poseidon00]

This is mainly due to the concentration mechanic, where powerful buff spells are limited to one per caster. Now if the creators of 5e have added something to the cleric class (aura buffs/debuffs or a late game ability that enables 2 concentrations at a time etc. only available to the cleric) , they may have been uniquely powerful. Now you have druids or bards to cast heroes feast, freedom of movement or spirit guardians. And with benefits from their own kits, these classes outshine the cleric at every step.

You can really tell they were out to nerf the cleric hard in 5e. Stacking buffs was its whole thing, and some of its most iconic ones are nerfed to uselessness.

 

[dukeofwoodberry]

This is mainly due to the concentration mechanic, where powerful buff spells are limited to one per caster. Now if the creators of 5e have added something to the cleric class (aura buffs/debuffs or a late game ability that enables 2 concentrations at a time etc. only available to the cleric) , they may have been uniquely powerful. Now you have druids or bards to cast heroes feast, freedom of movement or spirit guardians. And with benefits from their own kits, these classes outshine the cleric at every step.

You can really tell they were out to nerf the cleric hard in 5e. Stacking buffs was its whole thing, and some of its most iconic ones are nerfed to uselessness.

Stacking buffs is so boring. It's the worst part about playing the pathfinder games. Something had to be done about it

 

[Poseidon00]

This is mainly due to the concentration mechanic, where powerful buff spells are limited to one per caster. Now if the creators of 5e have added something to the cleric class (aura buffs/debuffs or a late game ability that enables 2 concentrations at a time etc. only available to the cleric) , they may have been uniquely powerful. Now you have druids or bards to cast heroes feast, freedom of movement or spirit guardians. And with benefits from their own kits, these classes outshine the cleric at every step.

You can really tell they were out to nerf the cleric hard in 5e. Stacking buffs was its whole thing, and some of its most iconic ones are nerfed to uselessness.

Stacking buffs is so boring. It's the worst part about playing the pathfinder games. Something had to be done about it

You know what, you're really not wrong about that, but I still feel like what they did with the cleric was flawed approach. They will need to go back to the drawing board on that one, better yet, take the more lengthy route and give more pronounced abilities and bonuses depending on your god. And there's a lot of gods, so there's alot of room there.

 

[mediocrepoet]

This is mainly due to the concentration mechanic, where powerful buff spells are limited to one per caster. Now if the creators of 5e have added something to the cleric class (aura buffs/debuffs or a late game ability that enables 2 concentrations at a time etc. only available to the cleric) , they may have been uniquely powerful. Now you have druids or bards to cast heroes feast, freedom of movement or spirit guardians. And with benefits from their own kits, these classes outshine the cleric at every step.

You can really tell they were out to nerf the cleric hard in 5e. Stacking buffs was its whole thing, and some of its most iconic ones are nerfed to uselessness.

Stacking buffs is so boring. It's the worst part about playing the pathfinder games. Something had to be done about it

You know what, you're really not wrong about that, but I still feel like what they did with the cleric was flawed approach. They will need to go back to the drawing board on that one, better yet, take the more lengthy route and give more pronounced abilities and bonuses depending on your god. And there's a lot of gods, so there's alot of room there.

They should've just given a few discrete buff types that don't stack. E.g. body buffs, spirit buffs, morale buffs, whatever. Each type can have one thing, no stacking. Then have some meaningful spell selections within those areas to make it something you consider and choose without having to spreadsheet some lengthy buff chain.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Alienman]

This is getting silly. Is the Nobel peace price next?

 

[lukaszek]

This is getting silly. Is the Nobel peace price next?

for the world peace, yes

 

[axedice]

You can argue cleric isn't fun because there's no unique ability but it's certainly not weak. Life cleric with heavy armor and tons of Con putting blade ward on everyone is extremely strong not matter what you say. Yes generally it's better not to heal it combat but life cleric is the one exception where it's worth it. It's extremely valuable on honor mode especially to bail you out of a mistake.

And yet the same effect can be replicated with a bard with the same items. Channel oath is a once per day ability, only twice for clerics of lvl6+ , beyond that clerics are bound to the same spell slots as the rest. Oath of Ancients paladin has a similar ability as well. That is why the cleric is weak, the same effects can be replicated by other classes. The power you speak comes from itemization, and unlike other builds is not specific to the cleric.

You extoll the virtues of some other classes being strong at early to mid game while ignoring that's where cleric shines. They're the only class that gets guidance which is a busted ability. They get bless, command, sanctuary. And no its not necessarily better as a dip because you need high wisdom for something like command (which is a stupidly strong spell.)

Bards get charisma based command, which is what arcane acuity builds do. Same for warlocks. Guidance is granted with an amulet at the beginning of the game, which is the most available slot due to lack of good options. Bless and sanctuary are good especially early game, but not good enough to carry cleric on their shoulders. The sum of all these abilities does not come close to any of the good builds I've mentioned above taking threats out of the board. Can you 100% land command with a cleric to legendary enemies with +10 save bonus? With a sorceror or bard or warlock you can. That is the power difference that I was talking about. Having access to an ability does not automatically make it useful.

Heroes feast is broken. It's pretty stupid you can cast it from camp from a hireling. I personally consider those exploits and don't use that kind of stuff.

First of all heroes feast is not broken. In my last honor run I was fine without it, as it arrives very late and by the time you have it, you don't need it that much. Is it a very powerful buff? Yes. Is it something only the cleric can do? No, druids have it as well. They also have freedom of movement like the clerics (and bards without a secret), probably the most important buff throughout the game. And druids can fill the role of a good frontliner all the while maintaining these buffs for the party.

Dexterity at 16 on everyone is very unnecessary. There's only a handful of fights where that matters. Being able to keep dex at 14 or lower and pump wisdom, con, grab other feats like alert and war caster is extremely nice. Might be difference of perspectives but I highly value my caster being able to wear heavy armor and a shield and they don't have to multi class or slow their spell progression to do it.

Con is not that important with high initiative since you shouldn't be taking that much damage anyway. There are no enemies in honor mode that you can not remove with the correct setup on the first round if you move as a team. That's where dex and initiative shines. Maybe ketheric phase 3 since you do not have access to all your abilities/items, but there is an easy solution to him from a myriad of other caster options which are also powerful with their base abilities.

Lore bard is not broken in combat like swords bard. You're highly valuing magical secrets. I would say it's a high tier subclass because it's competitive in combat while being an elite skill money. I would say lore bard and life cleric are pretty close in combat utility depending on what you're looking for in your party, both do different things. Lore bard is also a great party face tho.

Lore bard makes enemies fail saving throws. That is the most important aspect of the build, especially before you get the helmet or hat for spell DC. And has full spell progression, making it an excellent backbone for any type of caster build. Magical secrets then come into play, making it even more flexible due to access for whatever spell you may need.

You're underrating some very nice reactions that clerics get too. Causing an ally to hit with their great weapon when they would have missed (war cleric) or causing an enemy to miss as a reaction are some very nice bonuses clerics get. Life and light as mono class to 12 would certainly be in top half if you ranked every single subclass.

Both are nice reactions that I've used some time, but neither is build defining. Then I learnt to build better, and made characters that had much more impact than making an attack miss once per round or grant +10 to attacks twice per day.


I think you should play the game at least once without cleric and with good builds instead, in order to see how little impact a cleric makes while how much a good build can add to the game and easily take out enemies.

 

[Yosharian]

The reason Clerics aren't much good is because the game's meta revolves around blowing everything up in the first few turns, if not literally the first turn, letting the enemy take 0 turns themselves due to ambushing or CC or some other bullshit ability.

 

[jackofshadows]

But clerics are alright at CC. Who's better at it aside from wlocks/bards?

 

[processdaemon]

I found Life Cleric handy in Honour Mode because I occasionally ran into a fight half-cocked thinking it would be easy based on my Tactician playthrough and had to be brought back from the brink when things didn't go according to plan. I appreciate that if you're always sneaking into position and ambushing or similar then you probably don't need to worry about ending up in a precarious position as much so would be better prioritizing damage, but if you know that you're prone to getting yourself into a spot of bother now and then it's worth keeping one around.

 

[Jermu]

game writing? lets see past winners:

2020 outer worlds
2021 hades
2022 thirsty sword lesbians
2023 elden ring

ye makes sense

 

[processdaemon]

2022 thirsty sword lesbians

I had a horrible feeling that this wasn't going to be anywhere near as hot as it sounds and I was right:

Should a player experience an unfortunate event, they could suffer from a nasty variety of conditions [...] which they'll have to seek out a source of emotional closeness in order to cure"...

Participating in romantic role-play can be very emotional and requires communication and respect for boundaries that aren't necessarily in everyone's personal toolkit when they show up for a game. Thirsty Sword Lesbians builds consent and collaboration into the mechanics, as well as centering safety and communication practices that help groups explore more emotional themes.

 

[dukeofwoodberry]

You can argue cleric isn't fun because there's no unique ability but it's certainly not weak. Life cleric with heavy armor and tons of Con putting blade ward on everyone is extremely strong not matter what you say. Yes generally it's better not to heal it combat but life cleric is the one exception where it's worth it. It's extremely valuable on honor mode especially to bail you out of a mistake.

And yet the same effect can be replicated with a bard with the same items. Channel oath is a once per day ability, only twice for clerics of lvl6+ , beyond that clerics are bound to the same spell slots as the rest. Oath of Ancients paladin has a similar ability as well. That is why the cleric is weak, the same effects can be replicated by other classes. The power you speak comes from itemization, and unlike other builds is not specific to the cleric.

You extoll the virtues of some other classes being strong at early to mid game while ignoring that's where cleric shines. They're the only class that gets guidance which is a busted ability. They get bless, command, sanctuary. And no its not necessarily better as a dip because you need high wisdom for something like command (which is a stupidly strong spell.)

Bards get charisma based command, which is what arcane acuity builds do. Same for warlocks. Guidance is granted with an amulet at the beginning of the game, which is the most available slot due to lack of good options. Bless and sanctuary are good especially early game, but not good enough to carry cleric on their shoulders. The sum of all these abilities does not come close to any of the good builds I've mentioned above taking threats out of the board. Can you 100% land command with a cleric to legendary enemies with +10 save bonus? With a sorceror or bard or warlock you can. That is the power difference that I was talking about. Having access to an ability does not automatically make it useful.

Heroes feast is broken. It's pretty stupid you can cast it from camp from a hireling. I personally consider those exploits and don't use that kind of stuff.

First of all heroes feast is not broken. In my last honor run I was fine without it, as it arrives very late and by the time you have it, you don't need it that much. Is it a very powerful buff? Yes. Is it something only the cleric can do? No, druids have it as well. They also have freedom of movement like the clerics (and bards without a secret), probably the most important buff throughout the game. And druids can fill the role of a good frontliner all the while maintaining these buffs for the party.

Dexterity at 16 on everyone is very unnecessary. There's only a handful of fights where that matters. Being able to keep dex at 14 or lower and pump wisdom, con, grab other feats like alert and war caster is extremely nice. Might be difference of perspectives but I highly value my caster being able to wear heavy armor and a shield and they don't have to multi class or slow their spell progression to do it.

Con is not that important with high initiative since you shouldn't be taking that much damage anyway. There are no enemies in honor mode that you can not remove with the correct setup on the first round if you move as a team. That's where dex and initiative shines. Maybe ketheric phase 3 since you do not have access to all your abilities/items, but there is an easy solution to him from a myriad of other caster options which are also powerful with their base abilities.

Lore bard is not broken in combat like swords bard. You're highly valuing magical secrets. I would say it's a high tier subclass because it's competitive in combat while being an elite skill money. I would say lore bard and life cleric are pretty close in combat utility depending on what you're looking for in your party, both do different things. Lore bard is also a great party face tho.

Lore bard makes enemies fail saving throws. That is the most important aspect of the build, especially before you get the helmet or hat for spell DC. And has full spell progression, making it an excellent backbone for any type of caster build. Magical secrets then come into play, making it even more flexible due to access for whatever spell you may need.

You're underrating some very nice reactions that clerics get too. Causing an ally to hit with their great weapon when they would have missed (war cleric) or causing an enemy to miss as a reaction are some very nice bonuses clerics get. Life and light as mono class to 12 would certainly be in top half if you ranked every single subclass.

Both are nice reactions that I've used some time, but neither is build defining. Then I learnt to build better, and made characters that had much more impact than making an attack miss once per round or grant +10 to attacks twice per day.


I think you should play the game at least once without cleric and with good builds instead, in order to see how little impact a cleric makes while how much a good build can add to the game and easily take out enemies.

Life clerics are the best healers in the game. Their class adds bonuses to healing that bards don't. It's not huge but it's something that adds up.

Cutting words is nice but it's not as strong as you make it out to be. If it was divination wizards and lucky would be mandatory takes. Lore bards are very good but they're not top tier in combat. They're squishy and have nothing to do on their turn if you don't want to use a spell slot. Yes command is better on a lore bard but cleric also get bless, guidance and sanctuary.

The thing that hurts cleric the most is the fact the strongest party set up is just trying to blow up the enemy on the first hit. But I try to play minimizing long rests thus I don't always have the spell slots to blow everything up like that. Plus if you do make a mistake, having a life cleric usually comes in quite handy to bail you out. And light cleric is also a high tier build. Fighter/lore bard gets slower spell progression and also doesn't really have much to do with it's action. Casting burning hands with light cleric is pretty nice. Both are high tier builds

 

[Hydro]

game writing? lets see past winners:

2020 outer worlds
2021 hades
2022 thirsty sword lesbians
2023 elden ring

ye makes sense

Lololol

 

[Yosharian]

game writing? lets see past winners:

2020 outer worlds
2021 hades
2022 thirsty sword lesbians
2023 elden ring

ye makes sense

Outer Worlds won best writing??

 

[Desiderius]

This is getting silly. Is the Nobel peace price next?

Degeneracy -> Whirled Peas

That's been the plan since Hiroshima. Starting to show its age.

 

[Modron]

game writing? lets see past winners:

2020 outer worlds
2021 hades
2022 thirsty sword lesbians
2023 elden ring

ye makes sense

Not particularly familiar with the Nebula awards but I would hazard to say they've probably been taken over by SJWs like the Hugo awards.

 

[Rhobar121]

Awards galas are usually popularity contests in which more popular titles usually win (there are exceptions).
Another thing is, what was the competition like this year? Almost every AAA in 2023 turned out to be a failure and niche titles never had a chance to win.

 

[Haplo]

But clerics are alright at CC. Who's better at it aside from wlocks/bards?

Wizards (for example Divination specialists) and Sorcerers (particularly Fire with Fire Acuity, Quicken and Scorching Rays - and actual CC spells; or maybe with Heighten).

Kinda druids - although Nature and Tempest clerics can match that, I guess.