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Blizzard announced "Classic" World of Warcraft

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
Joined
Mar 28, 2015
Messages
6,942
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Devlet-i ʿAlīye-i ʿErdogānīye
Arenas are fine and gave structure to the PvP, it was my favorite part of WoW when I still played it and I'm definitely going to return to the game if they make a TBC server. What they did wrong with them, however, is that they refused to separate the balancing between PvP and PvE, or they could've balanced PvP first and then balance PvE around that, but surprise, surprise, a PvE game is gonna PvE. What a circus.

Arenas shifted balance focus to small skirmishes between 2-3-5 players rather than group PVP with 10 or more people. If you have 10 or more people, each class can have a specific role they can fill within the greater context of battleground or world PVP but if your group is only 2-3-5 people then the rebalance was done in a matter of streamlining in terms of roles rather than classes, which inevitably lead to balance by spec and everything becoming the same.

Especially because the arenas became the main way to obtain resilience gear, where every class needed to excel to get them so they could no longer have distinct roles. All classes and all specs needed to be good at specific attrition and CC based manner of 2-3-5 man combat. Rather than objective based melees of BGs or open world PVP.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,734
Pathfinder: Wrath
Yet, when they introduced competitive battlegrounds and a way to obtain the same gear from them, the game and PvP didn't magically become good again. TBC arenas worked very well, the classes weren't same-y and the game wasn't streamlined. As time went on, however, more and more overpowered shit was added and the gameplay become faster and faster, some abilities started being crucial to the performance of an entire class (like dispel, an interrupt, CC, etc.). It wasn't arenas' fault, it was the class designers' and the overall faster gameplay. Yeah, sure, arenas did focus the PvP on 2-3-5 group death matches, but that was preferable to the non-existent structure of vanilla and the overall vestigial nature of PvP in this game. I might ask the question of why they had 2 factions if the game was a PvE one, but eh, that's neither here nor there. Anyway, my point is that the only battleground I like is WSG (because you feel like you matter) and I like the individual skill involved in arenas, lol.
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
Joined
Mar 28, 2015
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Devlet-i ʿAlīye-i ʿErdogānīye
It didn't immediately become bad in TBC, because arenas were new and balancing was careful with the metagame of it all just taking shape but it set the stage for what came after.

For reference, I think class flavour and balance is great in TBC, greatest it has ever been. WOTLK is when streamlining truly hit.
 

GrainWetski

Arcane
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
5,366
1566231802872.jpg


Seems about right for Classic players. :smug:

mnNT7z2.jpg
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,734
Pathfinder: Wrath
Tbh, if someone had spelled out "Lacrymas is a faggot/nigger/whatever the kids use these days" with their skeleton, I'd have bought them a month of play time. That takes dedication.
 

Gregz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
8,972
Location
The Desert Wasteland
I started playing WoW during the WOTLK era, because before that I was busy playing Everquest and Anarchy Online. So my opinion is probably uninformed, but I really enjoyed it.

I think WOTLK was the beginning of the end, but not the actual end. Subs peaked during WOTLK, and they've been in decline ever since.

WoW+Subscriber+numbers+001+jim+younkin_b.png
 

Xor

Arcane
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
9,345
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
I started playing WoW during the WOTLK era, because before that I was busy playing Everquest and Anarchy Online. So my opinion is probably uninformed, but I really enjoyed it.

I think WOTLK was the beginning of the end, but not the actual end. Subs peaked during WOTLK, and they've been in decline ever since.

WoW+Subscriber+numbers+001+jim+younkin_b.png
I would love to see a more up to date version of this, but they basically stopped releasing subscriber counts or something, right?
 

Gregz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
8,972
Location
The Desert Wasteland
I started playing WoW during the WOTLK era, because before that I was busy playing Everquest and Anarchy Online. So my opinion is probably uninformed, but I really enjoyed it.

I think WOTLK was the beginning of the end, but not the actual end. Subs peaked during WOTLK, and they've been in decline ever since.

WoW+Subscriber+numbers+001+jim+younkin_b.png
I would love to see a more up to date version of this, but they basically stopped releasing subscriber counts or something, right?

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/acqhph/i_estimated_subscriber_numbers_using_google_trend/

b0j1aag43j821.jpg
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
248
I'm still gonna buy at least a month because I want to see it for myself if it's palatable enough to be played consistently , but Classic is DOOMED.

-Layering out the ass, doesn't even work how the devs want it to, to boot. Community is destroyed from day 1. Game is randomly unplayable and you auto-lose or auto-win depending on when you RANDOMLY switch layers.
-No wall-jumping, goodbye out of bounds exploration.
-Baked-in 400ms delay on EVERYTHING.
-Right-click reporting, modern squelch system that gets you either muted or kicked if enough people report you without a reason.
-Modern client so tons of bloat, useless UI, and no packet editing on character creation to get a character named 'God' using the magma dwarf skin or a red orc named 'GM'.
-Streamers destroying at least one entire server (Faerlina) and probably more.
-Bugs on classes such as Hunters being completely fucked to the point where Hunter "class leaders" (discord clique so w/e but still) were discussing rolling another class on launch. (Might be fixed by now.)
-5-mans are piss easy, turns out private servers were way overtuned relative to vanilla.
-Modern PC culture of Blizzard, now bringing cancer to your nostalgic Classic WoW experience. Enjoy your bans!
-$15 a month for no actual game development, and piece of shit servers that need hundreds of layers to function instead of one big server that can comfortable hold 3-5 thousand players simultaneously, like Blizzard had back in the day. Basically, a monthly payment for neither of the services you were once promised by MMORPG producers. In all these years, they have only regressed!
-A bunch of other shit I forget like that retarded skeleton decision revealed today that the devs lied about and blamed "toxicity" for, because in truth their dog shit servers just can't handle it. Or the hit-chance/miss-chance fiasco where the devs just lied and made some shit up and pretended it was right all along. Or hamstring kiting being broken due to "leeway". Or, or, or...


Private servers provide a better experience than official Classic servers will LMFAO. The choice you make is pay 15 dollars monthly for an entirely inferior experience but your characters are saved, or pay nothing ever for a superior gameplay experience but your characters might be deleted if the server gets shut down, and potential corrupt gold-selling GMs or bot-like Chinese sucking up the world's resources and never interacting with anyone but their own guild. I'd honestly take the second since leveling is the highlight of Classic, not AFKing in a city for 3-4 fucking hours spamming trade trying to get a second tank for a single run of UBRS.
 

Wilian

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,846
Divinity: Original Sin
Baked-in 400ms delay on EVERYTHING.

Huh?

piece of shit servers that need hundreds of layers to function instead of one big server that can comfortable hold 3-5 thousand players simultaneously

Source? I thought "layering" was only going to be enabled for launch.


From yesterday's AMA, layering clarifications:

A: I’m so glad you asked this question.

We’ve seen some confusion about layering, both about how it helps support our launch, and how it’s supposed to behave while its active, so I’d like to both speak to it and clear up some misconceptions about it.

First, we’re absolutely committed to reducing to one layer per realm before our second content phase goes live, and the sooner we can get there, the better. The reason we can’t do that initially is that on launch day, everybody will be clustered in the starting zones, and having players so close together causes an exponential drain on server resources. In fact, the same number of players cause more server problems crammed into Northshire than they do spread across all of Elwynn Forest. We expect that even after the first couple of days, we’ll need fewer layers than we need for the initial hours of launch, and our stress tests have confirmed that expectation.

A related concern that was raised during our pre-launch test was that capital cities felt empty, but that only occurred because we left the pre-launch test running two days past its original end date, and we didn’t reduce the number of layers at all during that test. During our launch week, as the players spread out across the world, we’ll monitor activity and reduce layers as necessary, so the world continues to feel full.

Some players have suggested using sharding in low level zones to address launch demand, both because we talked about that at Blizzcon, and because it’s what they’re used to from our modern expansions. Unfortunately, while modern WoW has content designed to work with sharding, WoW Classic does not. The most obvious example of incompatible content is Rexxar’s famously long patrol path, but there are lots of other examples throughout WoW Classic. Since we want all that content to work as it was originally designed, we’ve made sure that every layer is a copy of the entire world, so you can kite Anachronos all the way to Orgrimmar, and you can ride the boat from Ratchet to Booty Bay with the same people alongside you the whole way.

Some players have asked us to use realm caps and login queues to handle the demand, and while those are tools we have at our disposal, we don’t want to rely on them exclusively, because they keep people from playing the game.

One of the most frequently reported problems during our tests was players transferring to a layer for what seemed like no reason. There were several bugs that caused this, and we’re confident we’ve fixed them. At this point, the only thing that should cause you to change layers is accepting an invite from a player on another layer. Additionally, it should always transfer the player who was invited to the layer of the player who invited them.

Nonetheless, after accepting an invite, the layer transfer doesn’t always happen immediately, because we don’t want to transfer you in the middle of combat, or before you get a chance to loot. During our pre-launch test, we saw a few reports of what seemed like random layer transfers, but when we investigated, we realized this was due to us making that transfer delay too long. The delay was so long that players could unintentionally chain one delay into another by starting combat immediately after looting. Because of those reports, we’ve fixed the transfer delay to give you enough time to loot, without being so long that you’re left wondering why you can’t join your friend. We’ll keep an eye on that, and we may decide to reduce it further.

We’ve also seen reports of people transferring suddenly at the entrances to capital cities, which was related to the transfer delays. If you’re waiting to transfer to your friend’s layer, and you enter a capital city, we ignore the delay and transfer you immediately. The long delays were making it more likely that you’d enter a capital with a transfer pending, and now that we’ve reduced the transfer delay, it will be a bit more clear that your transfer was the result of accepting a group invitation.

Regarding PvP, we saw many posts from players wondering if getting invited to a party is a good way to escape from PvP combat. I’m pleased to say there’s actually a separate, longer transfer delay following any PvP combat. We know a lot of world PvP enthusiasts are excited for WoW Classic, and we don’t want the additional layers to feel like they’re robbing you of your kills. When the time comes to withdraw from the fight, you’ll have to escape from your enemies and get to a safe place before you’re able to join your friends on another layer.

I’d also like to clarify how multiple layers work with logout. Early in our stress testing, players reported that logging out and back in would let you hop to a new layer to farm the same mineral or herb node on different layers. That was a bug, and we’ve fixed it. Your layer assignment now persists for a few minutes between logouts, long enough that by the time the game would choose a new layer for you, that node would have respawned on its own anyway.

I hope that all makes things a bit more clear.
 

Sentinel

Arcane
Joined
Nov 18, 2015
Messages
6,822
Location
Ommadawn
Fucking hell, I laughed at that way more than I should have. Those were the days, even if that level of shithousery was way too much for me. :lol:
He missed a bunch of other stunts. For instance if you want to kill lowbies all you need to do is buff the mobs they tag with Curse of Recklessness. The subsequent boost to mob DPS will do them in nicely. And you can also fear mobs so they come back with an aggro train. As for using pets to store debuffs, aside from being essential to promoting AIDS epidemic (aka "the corrupted blood incident") alongside Hunters with their pets, it's typically used to store debuffs that do AoE damage and then summon the mobs in the AH, preferably to kill everyone, but some people settle for just killing lowbies. Adding Warlocks usually helps. This is usually referred to as "bombing the Auction House," a stunt Warlocks were particularly notorious for. The under-ranked healthstone stunt is pretty worthless though. In my experience when your idiot warrior tank dies and you ask him if he used his healthstone, the answer is "I forgot," even if it's the third time he got himself killed in this dungeon run, so it's not like the healthstone rank makes any difference, in which case soulstoning yourself for an easy hearth is sound advice.

Blizz will 100% ban anyone doing any sort of griefing in this manner, including things like kiting big mobs to major cities etc if they haven't already flat out patched them out of the game
hVJxvJZ.png
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,734
Pathfinder: Wrath
-5-mans are piss easy, turns out private servers were way overtuned relative to vanilla.
This would be hilarious if it's true.

It is. On private servers elite mobs usually have 2-4x faster attack speeds than they should and hit harder.

But ... but ... private servers did it all wrong, they were too easy!!!!!11!1!1!

Seriously, though, I was advocating for them to buff raids and dungeons to compensate for 1.12 balancing, but lo! and behold, we won't get that because Blizzard and most fans are idiots.
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
5,962
Pathfinder: Wrath
Private Servers are usually overtuned because their script aren't 100% proper ain't it? So they compensate by having higher number on the bosses.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,734
Pathfinder: Wrath
I didn't notice anything not working correctly, at least on the bosses, so that's quite a presumption. Even then, 1.12 balancing is a problem they aren't going to address and that's quite a shame.
 

Wilian

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,846
Divinity: Original Sin
Private Servers are usually overtuned because their script aren't 100% proper ain't it? So they compensate by having higher number on the bosses.
No, not really. That might've been true back in 2010 and before but the breaking point in terms of script quality and general matters was 2011 when the first real private server boom began in wake of Cataclysm being a failure of an expansion.

Prior to 2011 the scene was mostly filled with behemot servers like feenix who cared little for quality and were knee deep in different money schemes; after that there were many smaller servers that came to existance and through sheer passion for the project fixed many of the outstanding issues. One of the largest ones was implementation of real 3D movemaps, before that most mobs ignored terrain, collision and considered everything to be in 2D plane and could do things like say in Deadmines at the goblin foundry area just run up thru' air to the entrance if pulled, triviliazing entire section.

After 2011 there were tons of progress and concept of "poorly scripted" pretty much vanished from existance aside from those who kept nagging on it out of habit or lack of understanding of the p. server evolution; These typically were people who never touched private servers to begin with. At this point and time if you run a decent core and have little grasp of how matters function you most likely have quite authentic server in terms of scripts. The difficulty of translation in terms of mechanics have now moved into more obscure matters. Matters like:

How much is the diminishing return for each stack of Sunder Armor
At what rate should resistance reduce damage taken
What is the cast rate of this or that spell by mob X
What spells (trash)mobs might have beyond the ones explained in official and unofficial sources

These are things that will never really have their answer, at least until Classic is released and datamined thru' and thru'.

The real reason why mobs in general are more difficult in private servers vs. Classic is the sheer amount of work required to fix it. When I rebalanced Stratholme, it took me days worth of effort to verify all attack speeds, adjust them per mob, check their health and compare it to our sources, same with damage; go through spell lists, see what is missing, see what they cast too often etc. The amount of work is just mind boggling and it's 99% extremely boring database editing after research that will melt any brain. So not many bother to do it because it seems like wasted effort. Like in case of Strath fixes people complained it now was too easy, just as they're complaining Classic is too easy. This is accentuated by the fact that usually private servers keep their database to themselves aside from leaks so whatever fixes individual servers do rarely get shared into the open source pool.
 

GrainWetski

Arcane
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
5,366
Aren't elite mobs in general too easy on "classic"? Watching some streams months ago, I saw them doing like 10% more damage than normal mobs at best. I don't remember them being that easy in vanilla, but I guess I could be wrong.
 

Wilian

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,846
Divinity: Original Sin
Aren't elite mobs in general too easy on "classic"? Watching some streams months ago, I saw them doing like 10% more damage than normal mobs at best. I don't remember them being that easy in vanilla, but I guess I could be wrong.

Elite mobs weren't all that difficult; they were most challenging to warriors who were extremely gear dependant. With classes like Paladins (before the talent reshuffle in 1.10) they could level up by soloing places like SM GY while amassing ridiculous amounts of greens for sale. Before they nerfed green drop rates in SM.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,593
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
To this day I remember the Sons of Arugal wandering Silverpine, and it would either path into me from behind or be right behind the tree I walked by. Good times.
 

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