Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[NecroLord]

What he has to gain by honestly criticizing the show is integrity.

The faggot has no integrity left.
He sold it long time ago.

 

[Sibelius]

The point Tim made about Vault-Tec maybe planning to launch the first nuke, but never actually getting the opportunity to do it as China or the US beat them to it gave me pause.

No, it's like saying the 12 Parsec Kessel Run is because of the gravity anomalies. Vault-Tec deciding to drop a nuke makes no sense, since the end result would be the same. Something gets nuked in either nuclear power, they're going to blame the other amd scramble the bombers.

Hey, I'm not saying Vault-Tec's deciding to drop a nuke makes sense, I'm saying that Tim's theory that they planned to but got beaten to it makes sense. Vault-Tec dropping a nuke to be a monopoly of nothing and repopulate the world with management or whatever was probably the most retarded plot point in a sea of retarded plot points.

 

[Wesp5]

He wouldn't be the first designer to no longer understand what he once created.

I haven't seen the Fallout show yet, but that reminds me of the Alien and Terminator franchises...

 

[NecroLord]

but that reminds me of the Alien and Terminator franchises...

Because those franchises ended up in good hands.
Right?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Yeeeaah...

 

[Wesp5]

but that reminds me of the Alien and Terminator franchises...

Because those franchises ended up in good hands.
Right?

No, because their creators didn't understand their own creation years later and basically killed the franchises themselves.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I haven't seen the Fallout show yet, but that reminds me of the Alien and Terminator franchises...

I haven't seen it yet either. I've never really bought the whole, "But you haven't seen it yet!" argument to discredit someone's arguments against things to know that it's not for you. In fact, I was pretty turned off by the trailer. Bethesda has never been good when it comes to dealing with the Brotherhood of Steel and the flying Brotherhood knight that seemed to have all the weight of a helium balloon annoyed me. The lack of consistency in what the Brotherhood of Steel is really annoys me with Bethesda, and the trailer kind of demonstrated that they still don't know what way to go with the Brotherhood. About the only game since the original Fallout that I think did the Brotherhood of Steel decently was New Vegas.

Then I heard about the whole Shady Sands thing, and I completely nope'd out on the idea of ever watching it. Even if they didn't buttfuck the time line with it, I still wouldn't watch a show where they nuked the capitol of the NCR just so that show could happen. The NCR was well in to establsihing itself in Fallout 2, and it was still fairly lawless. But if you wanted something more chaotic, why not set it earlier than Fallout 2? Why completely rape the NCR for a TV series? Or even future games if they're going with that? Sorry, but that's a big "FUCK YOU!" from me on that.

 

[NecroLord]

I haven't seen the Fallout show yet, but that reminds me of the Alien and Terminator franchises...

I haven't seen it yet either. I've never really bought the whole, "But you haven't seen it yet!" argument to discredit someone's arguments against things to know that it's not for you. In fact, I was pretty turned off by the trailer. Bethesda has never been good when it comes to dealing with the Brotherhood of Steel and the flying Brotherhood knight that seemed to have all the weight of a helium balloon annoyed me. The lack of consistency in what the Brotherhood of Steel is really annoys me with Bethesda, and the trailer kind of demonstrated that they still don't know what way to go with the Brotherhood. About the only game since the original Fallout that I think did the Brotherhood of Steel decently was New Vegas.

Then I heard about the whole Shady Sands thing, and I completely nope'd out on the idea of ever watching it. Even if they didn't buttfuck the time line with it, I still wouldn't watch a show where they nuked the capitol of the NCR just so that show could happen. The NCR was well in to establsihing itself in Fallout 2, and it was still fairly lawless. But if you wanted something more chaotic, why not set it earlier than Fallout 2? Why completely rape the NCR for a TV series? Or even future games if they're going with that? Sorry, but that's a big "FUCK YOU!" from me on that.

You are now my bro.

 

[Wesp5]

I still wouldn't watch a show where they nuked the capitol of the NCR just so that show could happen.

So that didn't happen in any of the newer Fallout games? In that case it really is stupid, just as much as killing of the New Republic in the Star Wars sequels only to repeat the story of the original movies.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

just as much as killing of the New Republic in the Star Wars sequels only to repeat the story of the original movies.

I've noticed this has been happening in newer media, particularly when dealing with older properties. They feel the need to wreck a particular hallmark thing of the franchise supposedly to "raise the stakes". J.J. Abrams has done this a few times, the thing in Force Awakens that you mentioned, but also the destruction of Vulcan in his Star Trek movie. Diablo III does this also. It wrecks three of the five archangels, who supposedly can't just come back the way that the Evils can. If you can't raise the stakes without basically wrecking everything that came before you got that writing gig, perhaps you shouldn't be a writer. The fact that no one in charges of these people also did't recognize this goes to show that they're also in the wrong position when it comes to cultivating and expanding the lore of some pre-existing franchise.

 

[Mister Vespertine]

I didn't expect Tim to say things like "Maximus is a huge pussy of a character" but god damn...

 

[Paul_cz]

Not surprised Tim liked the show (I liked it too overall) but I am disappointed he glossed over the problems so much. It just could have been lot better still. Handwaving the problems with "unrealiable narrators" and "maybe they didn't launch the nukes" and what not is lame.

I do disagree with some of the idiotic posts above accusing him of some "shilling for views" and such. As if he gave a fuck about that.

 

[AndyS]

I've noticed this has been happening in newer media, particularly when dealing with older properties. They feel the need to wreck a particular hallmark thing of the franchise supposedly to "raise the stakes". J.J. Abrams has done this a few times, the thing in Force Awakens that you mentioned, but also the destruction of Vulcan in his Star Trek movie. Diablo III does this also. It wrecks three of the five archangels, who supposedly can't just come back the way that the Evils can. If you can't raise the stakes without basically wrecking everything that came before you got that writing gig, perhaps you shouldn't be a writer. The fact that no one in charges of these people also did't recognize this goes to show that they're also in the wrong position when it comes to cultivating and expanding the lore of some pre-existing franchise.

That reminds me of Abrams's Superman script that didn't get made, in which Krypton never exploded, Jor-El is its king, Superman is the subject of a prophecy, and Lex Luthor is a CIA agent who turns out to be an undercover Kryptonian working for the bad guys who gets into a Matrix-style Kryptonian kung fu fight in the sky against Superman, and then it ends with Superman taking off in a ship to go back to Krypton. And the script is full of smug asides about how "THE AUDIENCE WILL GO CRAZY AT THIS!" every time Abrams unleashes one of his idiotic revelations/changes.

 

[NecroLord]

Not surprised Tim liked the show (I liked it too overall) but I am disappointed he glossed over the problems so much. It just could have been lot better still. Handwaving the problems with "unrealiable narrators" and "maybe they didn't launch the nukes" and what not is lame.

I do disagree with some of the idiotic posts above accusing him of some "shilling for views" and such. As if he gave a fuck about that.

He is not merely "shilling", he is outright retarded and lacking dignity.
He's a man whore, sold his own dignity and self respect a long time ago.
Now just tries to fit in with the "crowd", absolutely no respect for his true fans, those who appreciate him and most importantly his work - Fallout and Troika.
That's US!!
What the fuck Tim...
Fuck Bethesda and its retarded show merely wearing a Fallout skin...

 

[Bad Sector]

absolutely no respect for his true fans, those who appreciate him and most importantly his work

Yeah, the comments in this thread absolutely ooze with respect and appreciation for Tim Cain and his work :-P

 

[Wesp5]

I think most creators will feel honored if their niche work advances into main stream, even if it is butchered. Just remember what they did in Richard Morgan's "Altered Carbon" adaptation and others.

 

[Jacov]

I appreciate what Tim Cain and his colleagues did for the RPG genre. Classic Fallouts will forever be my favorites.

I disagree with him on the show — Bethesda's Fallout is a skinwalker. Even if it was a decent show (it's not), its mere existence is an atrocity, a murder. Something that killed someone dear to you, ripped their skin and now tries to masquarade as them by using their superficial features (50s aesthetic, Nuka-Cola, BoS, supermutants, nukes, etc.) Literally The Thing.
But I think he just doesn't give a fuck at this point. Because here's a thing with humans: we age, and things that were relevant to us in the past become less important with time. We have a limited capacity for memory and emotion. Especially creatives: not all of them are able to be indefinetely attached to a piece of work that they've created like a half of their life ago.

Of course, I want Tim Cain to care, I want John Carmack to care (tho, I don't think he cared about games even back then in og id, I think he cared more for the tech behind them), I want to look Robin Walker in the eye and ask what he feels about the father of all team shooters that HE CREATED, that is being raped and cannibalized and desecrated. And the answer would probably be: they don't really care. Those are things of the past for them, they have to live their present lives, smile and not be too critical to not offend someone if they want to stay relevant themselves. It takes a lot of willpower and decency to keep your integrity in this industry and respect your past works, and majority of people there lack them.

I don't think I will be able to watch Tim's channel anymore. He's still a very experienced developer who has a lot of knowledge to share. But every time I'll watch his videos a though will pop up in my head that he is fine with something he created and I loved being fucked, butchered and sold to savages.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

But I think he just doesn't give a fuck at this point. Because here's a thing with humans: we age, and things that were relevant to us in the past become less important with time. We have a limited capacity for memory and emotion. Especially creatives: not all of them are able to be indefinetely attached to a piece of work that they've created like a half of their life ago.

You also can't ignore the celebrity factor. Tim Cain has always been worshipped by the fans of Fallout, but that's a small group of people. And a lot of fans were recently pretty upset by The Outer Worlds, which was a pretty big screw up on the part of Private Division not being able to read the room. We were expecting a New Vegas 2.0, but that's not what Private Division was wanting from what I've gathered. Flash forward to today, there's a large push to like the Fallout TV show and it put Tim Cain in the spotlight again. He got invited to a full blown, Hollywood red carpet affair which was the premiere of the Fallout TV Show. He got to mingle with movie stars and actors, famous people. These events are designed to influence people.

I don't think I will be able to watch Tim's channel anymore. He's still a very experienced developer who has a lot of knowledge to share. But every time I'll watch his videos a though will pop up in my head that he is fine with something he created and I loved being fucked, butchered and sold to savages.

I didn't watch every video he's put out before this. I would occationally watch them depending on the topic. I have noticed that I haven't watched anything he's done since him talking about going to the premiere.

 

[0wca]

Tim just seems like he doesn't want to rock the boat for whatever reason. Probably hoping for a future "consulting" gig with Bethesda or some shit down the line.

Honestly, what he might gain by shitting on the show? Nothing. BY NOT shitting on it he can potentially gain quite a lot though.

it's not hard to imagine Tim Cain disagreeing with particulars within the show but being emotionally swayed and captured by the fact there now exists a big budget product on the televitzer as a testament to "Brian Fargo's Fallout"
I don't think there's anything forced or cynical in his reaction, his career and position tracks the history of a conforming, consensus-seeking, company people person, you kind of have to be that way to have the career he did, so that's how he's predisposed to conduct himself

to me, talking shit and being disagreeable is a way of expressing what I do like and care about, and to those who counterintuit the same way, things said in that manner ring truer than explicitly expressing my likes and my compliments
his refusal to critique to avoid hurt feelings and play the perception game to appear fair will always have the smell of calculated, well-measured bullshit to it, no matter that he's honest

It's clear to me now that Tim sold his soul to the corporate machine a while ago. Not only did he gloss over the MANY bastardizations of his original lore from this show, he unironically said he liked it and that he was 'at the edge of his seat'.

I mean the game literally NUKED Shady Sands AND New Vegas. They're basically saying the NCR doesn't exist and not to mention continues to bastardize the BoS lore, by making them into even more cringe-inducing, paladin-like heroes. They also continued the RETARDED lore of ghouls being immortal from the kid in the fridge quest from Fallout 4.

Fuck this show.

Fuck Tim Cain.

 

[NecroLord]

Fuck Tim Cain.

He'll probably enjoy it too...

 

[Daedalos]

Tim Cain stopped caring about Fallout, truly, whenever he lost control and ultimately passion for it, this happend already with Fallout 2 where he was the Lead until.. he wasnt anymore . ... so yea.
He honestly doesn't care all that too much anymore about the fallout franchise, and neither do I.

How could you? Bethesda have raped and fucked over the franchise so much for so many years, it's hard to care and get a pulse going... is the show bad? Not really, not really amazing either. It's fine, it's entertainment, just like fallout 3+4 was.. nothing more.
Just enjoy it and turn your brain, kind of off, and whatever.

Fallout 1 was amazing alltime cult classic everywhere, fallout 2, already starting to get abit goofy and shit, but still a good game. And then shit, until New Vegas, which was good, but still alot worse than FO1+2.
Fallouts been in the shitter for so many decades now, it's at its core, dead. Accept that.

It's not like Tim can ever effect or control how Fallout turns out anyway, and what's he gonna do? Shit the nest, from where he eats and lives? Nah. He's staying friendly with industry veterans, despite him perhaps not really liking the products, which is a smart move.

He's gonna go all guns blazing and shit on the devs at like age 55? No. It would reflect badly on him and his career. aint nobody want that. I imagine him and leonard prob shit on it more in private, and that's fine.

 

[The Wall]

Tim Cain stopped caring about Fallout, truly, whenever he lost control and ultimately passion for it, this happend already with Fallout 2 where he was the Lead until.. he wasnt anymore . ... so yea.
He honestly doesn't care all that too much anymore about the fallout franchise, and neither do I.

How could you? Bethesda have raped and fucked over the franchise so much for so many years, it's hard to care and get a pulse going... is the show bad? Not really, not really amazing either. It's fine, it's entertainment, just like fallout 3+4 was.. nothing more.
Just enjoy it and turn your brain, kind of off, and whatever.

Fallout 1 was amazing alltime cult classic everywhere, fallout 2, already starting to get abit goofy and shit, but still a good game. And then shit, until New Vegas, which was good, but still alot worse than FO1+2.
Fallouts been in the shitter for so many decades now, it's at its core, dead. Accept that.

It's not like Tim can ever effect or control how Fallout turns out anyway, and what's he gonna do? Shit the nest, from where he eats and lives? Nah. He's staying friendly with industry veterans, despite him perhaps not really liking the products, which is a smart move.

He's gonna go all guns blazing and shit on the devs at like age 55? No. It would reflect badly on him and his career. aint nobody want that. I imagine him and leonard prob shit on it more in private, and that's fine.

This cucked line of reasoning is #1 reason for total decay and destruction of West. Not Jews, not horny white women, not millions of wild niggers. EXACTLY THIS kind of reasoning destroyed Rome, Mayas, Egyptians, Greeks and Fallout universe

Nothing has been stopping Tim Cain for past 10 years from kickstarting Troika 2. Nothing except addiction to sweet release of corporate green cum that fills his happy autistic genius bottom gay happy mouth at the end of each month. Today's Tim Cain is a corpo bitch making "anti-corpo" game for braindead midwits. Pathetic

Why he sucked the cock of Bethesda, Todd Howard and Amazon? Because he loves sucking cocks and that's what he's been doing for living since closure of Troika. That simple? That simple

 

[The Wall]

Fuck old Tim Cain. Look for NEW Tim Cains. I watch his videos for his old design and programming advice. What else is he good for? Corporate cock sucking techniques? Nah, thanks Uncle Tim

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I mean the game literally NUKED Shady Sands AND New Vegas. They're basically saying the NCR doesn't exist

This is my major problem with the show. Reseting California so the show could happen is 100% pure shit. If you wanted a semi-lawless wasteland, there's so many less extreme ways of doing that. Set it earlier in the timeline, for example. Don't set it in California. Give the characters a reason to move around! There's only so much that NCR can control. They didn't even have very good control on things in Fallout 2, for example. Or here's a thought, explore the NCR bringing civilization back. It worked for Gene Roddenberry's Genesis II even though that show was scrapped in favor of making a Planet of the Apes TV series. It was revamped to make the series Andromeda, which was moved to be a space based sci-fi. But if you haven't seen Genesis II, you're missing out on some good post apocalyptic world building. There were also two sequels produced for television. Here's a bit more on that:

https://ripjaggerdojo.blogspot.com/2019/08/the-many-lives-of-dylan-hunt.html

not to mention continues to bastardize the BoS lore, by making them into even more cringe-inducing, paladin-like heroes.

The big problem with this is that they nuked Shady Sands. The BoS could have easily become "paladin-like" heroes under the NCR since the Big Fear(tm) the BoS had was that mankind would destroy themselves again with technology. However, present a hopeful view of the NCR and you can see the BoS coming around to being The Good Guys that Bethesda seems to like to flip flop on. The main reason the BoS actually helped you out at the end of Fallout is because the FEV is an example of old world technology threatening the existence of mankind. They weren't there to be good guys. They were there because it played in to their fears.

That's not to say they could never come around. It's even suggested that they do in one of the endings to Fallout 2, if I remember right - because of the NCR.

However, if you nuke Shady Sands, guess what that would do to the mindset of the Brotherhood of Steel given their backstory? They're going to double way the fuck down on their technology hording because the nuking of Shady Sands will basically confirm their fears. They won't be the good guys at all. They'll be more militant about technology than they've ever been.

 

[The Wall]

Honestly, I don't know what Fallout TV show you all keep talking about. Seriously. There's no such thing as Fallout TV show. There's 1, 2, (3) and New Vegas. Close every thread about shizo made up other installments

 

[StrongBelwas]

I talk about delegating tasks to others, including when and how I do that.

Delegation is unavoidable unless you plan to make the whole game yourself. Some parts are going to have to be done by some other people and you or someone else will have to decide this. Cain has noticed a tendency (which has always been around) for some people to want the authority to make decisions but not the responsibility of what that decision causes. If you delegate, that is part of your authority and you are responsible for it.

Delegation comes from your position on the ladder. Juniors don't really have to delegate, they are delegated to. Seniors need to manage and delegate a little, they have a few people under them and that is how they learn how to manage. Lead do a lot of delegating, Cain does some leads that don't do much work in their field, he knows some who do, but they all make time to delegate the other tasks. There is the rare exception of the Principal of a role, a lead-senior level who manages nobody but in exchange has total responsibility of some subset of the game. Cain has worked with Principal Programmers, one example is someone who entirely does the game rendering. Manage nobody, but it's on them to make sure that segment works flawlessly.

Cain considers a two pronged approach to delegation. If there is a task Cain has never done before or knows he is not good at (As you go along in the game industry you have to acknowledge what you are not good at), he gets a Lead for it. That person is responsible for that area of the game, including delegating out. This can happen in different ways, Cain hired a networking lead because he was very experienced with networking code and the game needed multiplayer. He saw the spec, was told what they needed, and owned that section of the code from then on. Art is an example of something Cain cannot do at all, he hires a lead artist and that person handles all of it. Liked how Fallout looked? Great, Cain had nothing to do with that. Liked how Outer Worlds looked? Great, Cain had nothing do do with it. Lead artist decides look, style. Half the time, the artists are discussing differences between things Cain can't tell the difference. They discuss color variation, skin tones, and it is all pink to Cain.

Narrative design, Cain wants to be involved with the storyline of the game, wants to be involved in the characters and quests they have, but he knows they cannot write those things, especially dialogue. Wants a lead for that, but also wants to go to their meetings and make suggestions.

For tasks Cain has done before, it's different. For seniors where Cain is the lead in, Cain will write their specs and tell them what is needed, they implement it however they see fit, they decide the appropriate data structure and algorithms. His seniors estimate the time it takes to do that task, Cain asks them questions such as why something is taking a certain amount of time or why they decided on a particular algorithm. They are seniors, they should be able to answer those type of questions.

For juniors, Cain writes the API/Class/High level description but then they have to write the individual methods themselves. Cain will give them his time estimate. If they want, he will tell them how he has done it before and where they can look up useful information. The data structures and algorithms he recommends will be based on his own work. If they want to do their own thing, he wants to know why, and will want to know their time estimate. It has to be in line with his estimate, or he's going to start asking questions on why you're doing design X that takes a week to do instead of Cain's recommendation of design Y that takes four hours. Even juniors should be able to explain their thought process.

Once delegating, now you are managing. This isn't all on producers, producers monitor and make sure things are going to schedule. Producers go to leads if something is going wrong. But you can't expect a producer to glance at someone's networking code and realize it's wrong, or look at a model and notice it isn't rigged. Leads have to intervene and take a look at tasks to see why they are taking longer than estimated. What Cain does is go to the developer in question and ask them to show their work to him. Show the code, the script, if it's a system mechanic what have they designed and what is getting them stuck. Talk through it, discuss their approach to it. Usually, this solves it, they get over their roadblock. They were stuck on something that didn't really matter and solve it or move onto to the more important stuff.

The problem is when someone consistently is taking too long. Different ways Cain has handled this, sometimes on the same project and different projects. Cain swaps tasks between two people on the same level, i.e move junior tasks over to another junior or senior to another senior. One guy is making good progress, one guy is struggling, swap around and see if the problem continues. Cain has done this to himself on some projects if he at the same programming level as others. If someone is struggling, Cain can swap their projects and take a look. Walking a mile in another person's shoes, you can start to understand the problems, or notice where they are making it too complex for themselves. Sometimes you swap tasks and notice the hidden complexities. But if that keeps happening, you need to have a serious discussion with them. Sometimes Cain moves them to less time sensitive tasks, something that won't bottleneck other people's work. Sometimes he talks about moving them to another project, changing another lead/engine/programming language can be all some people need. Cain has moved people to another project and suddenly that person is happy and working at full speed.

Once or twice, it lead to demotion. Cain is not a fan of the Peter Principle that says everyone eventually gets promoted to a level they aren't good at. Cain would prefer taking a step down, Cain has done it before himself. Cain has done it to other people once or twice after they keep delivering slow/substandard work. Senior staff has been moved to staff, with all the resulting consequences such as salary decrease. Cain does this at their review, giving them a few weeks to think about what comes next. Some people leave (Cain will give them a reference), some people stay and end up doing quite well in that demoted position, even going back up a level when they really are ready for that previous role.