Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[rojay]

Ironically, the Vault with 999 men and 1 woman has a higher chance of success than the reverse vault, thanks to genetics.
You would think the reverse would be true, but it's not.

Which one would you rather live in?

 

[Roguey]

New DX was so successful they got their trilogy shitcanned. Too bad. A lot of people really liked the knife using ammo system.

Human Revolution was successful. Mankind Divided underperformed for a variety of factors, none having to do with the gameplay itself, which was quite good and an improvement over its predecessor.

Good thing all of those games made enough money to warrant a franchise then, still no argument on why "wait for accuracy" is bad in stealth focused methodical games either.

Based on the "it's not fun" feedback, there's universal consensus among professional game designers that it's bad, which is why no one's used it since the 00s. Alpha Protocol was the last solely because a Sega producer forced Obsidian to use it under protest.

 

[Bulo]

Here's an argument: "Wait for accuracy" is gay, thus only a fag would enjoy it

 

[flyingjohn]

Hardly anyone likes Deus Ex's skill system when it comes to guns

Hardy anybody liked dungeons in dungeon crawlers( nobody "liked" traps and getting lost) , combat in crpg's( nobody "liked" trash mobs and slow battles) or puzzles in adventure games( nobody "liked" pixel hunting or moon logic). People refuse to admit that those "tedious" elements made the games unique and challenging.

They got rid of it in Invisible War

They got rid of the entire skill system not just guns. So were hacking and lockpicking giant issues in Deus ex as well? According to Harvey, yeah. So his opinion is wrong as the game critical and financial result showed.

HR/MD also used a better system

You mean the two aug skill that boost accuracy? Exactly like the original, minus being more gradient and practically being useless because most weapons don't need em? And it wasn't just accuracy, the skill being tied to specific weapon types gave you builds.

Human Revolution was successful.

Not according to this:

Games ultimately have to make money.

HR took 5+years of development and barely delivered the cost back. MD was the same. Eidos takes way too much time to make stuff while being costly and maybe deliver 15-20 percent back. That is not financially successful no matter what.

 

[Wesp5]

Mankind Divided underperformed for a variety of factors, none having to do with the gameplay itself, which was quite good and an improvement over its predecessor.

So what were these factors then?

 

[Roguey]

Hardly anyone likes Deus Ex's skill system when it comes to guns

Hardy anybody liked dungeons in dungeon crawlers( nobody "liked" traps and getting lost) , combat in crpg's( nobody "liked" trash mobs and slow battles) or puzzles in adventure games( nobody "liked" pixel hunting or moon logic). People refuse to admit that those "tedious" elements made the games unique and challenging.

When people praise Deus Ex, it's the breadth of options and the level design that's praised. Everyone agrees the combat is lousy, the gun skills are a big contributor to that.

They got rid of it in Invisible War

They got rid of the entire skill system not just guns. So were hacking and lockpicking giant issues in Deus ex as well? According to Harvey, yeah. So his opinion is wrong as the game critical and financial result showed.

Harvey did a talk on everything that went wrong in Invisible War and "we made it play more like a real shooter" wasn't one of them.

HR/MD also used a better system

You mean the two aug skill that boost accuracy? Exactly like the original, minus being more gradient and practically being useless because most weapons don't need em? And it wasn't just accuracy, the skill being tied to specific weapon types gave you builds.

No, it wasn't exactly like the original. There's no shrinking reticule. When you aim down the sights, you hit where you're aiming. Like I said, better.

Human Revolution was successful.

Not according to this:

Games ultimately have to make money.

HR took 5+years of development and barely delivered the cost back. MD was the same. Eidos takes way too much time to make stuff while being costly and maybe deliver 15-20 percent back. That is not financially successful no matter what.

HR was successful enough for a director's cut re-release and a sequel, thus it was successful.

Meanwhile, from Deus Ex to Daggerfall/Morrowind to Bloodlines to Mass Effect to Alpha Protocol - all the developers of these games have abandoned their particular way of handling accuracy and have outright spoken out against them. Indie games in development that are trying to replicate them - Core Decay, Wayward Realms - are not taking their approach to weapon accuracy.

So what were these factors then?

I wouldn't know for certain, but 2016-17 was a AAA imsim apocalypse where MD, Dishonored 2, and Prey all underperformed despite not being terrible.

 

[flyingjohn]

it's the breadth of options

Combat is one of those options. Ironically, the other major gameplay option, stealth, is just not really good and doesn't even interact with the skill system.At least weapons have skills tied to them.

the gun skills are a big contributor to that.

No. This myth has to die already:
-Pistols start at trained and are the only solo weapon type that is affected by the shirking reticule. You can make a case for this mattering for the first level but past that you either get new weapons or upgrade pistols to master.
-Shotguns, and rifles are not affected by this in any meaningful way since their range will require you to be closer to the enemies.
-Snipers are bugged and thus you can easily headshot without any accuracy
-Gep doesn't need accuracy

Harvey did a talk on everything that went wrong in Invisible War and "we made it play more like a real shooter" wasn't one of them.

Exactly the point, he has no idea why it failed and blames consoles and removing "fantasy" options. He has never made the connection why fusing skills and augs while removing weapon skills made the game worse.Protip, it is about player choice to mix match options and not just use what the devs force you to. Ironically, the opposite case with IW weapons, which give you no reason to specialize and thus everything can be used the same, compared to the original where you had builds.

There's no shrinking reticule. When you aim down the sights, you hit where you're aiming. Like I said, better.

Where is the rpg side to that? If you are making a rpg/fps and the fps part is player driven, then you just have a fps.

HR was successful enough for a director's cut re-release

Outsourced and needed Nintendo money to even materialize. More like square trying to wring money from a dissapointment. Same as the mobile game.

and a sequel

Square giving them one more shot to see if they can actually give back the investment, they couldn't. Same as tomb raider, financially disappointing compared to their budgets while getting multiple games funded.Also, square sold them and then embracer cut them off for a reason.It is not a coincidence anymore.

ll the developers of these games have abandoned their particular way of handling accuracy and have outright spoken out against them

I wonder if there is a pattern here:
-Deus ex -IW. Dumbed down game, skills removed.
-Morrowind to Oblivion. Dumbed down game and some skills removed.
-Mass Effect to Mass Effect 2/3. Removal of almost any real rpg elements.
-Bloodlines to outer worlds. From broken to bland.
-Alpha Protocol. Didn't know Obsidian made anymore tps games.

Maybe removal of "tedious" elements leads to bigger problems.

all the developers of these games have abandoned their particular way of handling accuracy and have outright spoken out against them

The same devs also seem to have abandoned good design choices so their opinions are meaningless.

Indie games in development that are trying to replicate them - Core Decay, Wayward Realms - are not taking their approach to weapon accuracy.

Indie games having no idea what made the originals work, news at 11.

TLDR: FPS/RPG combo games need character skills for major stuff or there is no point to the rpg stuff.

 

[Roguey]

-Shotguns, and rifles are not affected by this in any meaningful way since their range will require you to be closer to the enemies.

Assault rifles are not a weapon that requires being close.

Snipers are bugged and thus you can easily headshot without any accuracy

This is not my experience.

Additionally, it doesn't matter if you even cheat all your weapon stats to max at the beginning because the game was tuned for shrinking reticule-gameplay.

Exactly the point, he has no idea why it failed and blames consoles and removing "fantasy" options. He has never made the connection why fusing skills and augs while removing weapon skills made the game worse.Protip, it is about player choice to mix match options and not just use what the devs force you to. Ironically, the opposite case with IW weapons, which give you no reason to specialize and thus everything can be used the same, compared to the original where you had builds.

You've given me no reason to believe you're more of an authority on why Invisible War failed.

Where is the rpg side to that? If you are making a rpg/fps and the fps part is player driven, then you just have a fps.

The role playing is in making in-game decisions the game reacts to in addition to the ways in which you can customize your character. Role-playing game doesn't mean "tabletop role-playing game simulator" and hasn't for decades now.

Maybe removal of "tedious" elements leads to bigger problems.

Leads to bigger success as far as Bethesda, Bioware, and Obsidian are concerned. Oh and CD Projekt too with their Cyberpunk thing.

 

[luj1]

Swen Vincke had a strong faith in the mass market appeal revival of turn-based RPGs Bioware-style cinematic dating sims

 

[flyingjohn]

Assault rifles are not a weapon that requires being close.

You will use them for torso damage and not headshots. Medium to close range is where they shine.

This is not my experience.

You've given me no reason to believe you're more of an authority on why Invisible War failed.

Same way Harvey's "fusing swimming and aqualung" theory doesn't convince me.

The role playing is in making in-game decisions the game reacts to in addition to the ways in which you can customize your character

Everything you do in a video game gets a reaction.Character customization is cute but if said customization doesn't actually have any major effects on the gameplay, then it is meaningless.Not everything has to be dnd but character skill need to be part of the major gameplay loop.Even games like Diablo are reliant on stats and not mashing the mouse buttons.

Bethesda

New console means bigger sales. Morrowind sales on xbox with "horrible accuracy combat" were amazing, and that was a primary halo console.

Bioware

Pure tps game sells more than tpg/rpg combo. Also, mass effect 3 did not outsell 1 in huge quantities yet it had improved combat.

Obsidian

True.

CD Projekt too with their Cyberpunk thing

Kinda breaks the combo since they didn't really make anything fps/tps wise before cyberpunk. And as Witcher 2 demonstrates, they really have a problem with hit detection systems for some reason.

 

[Max Damage]

The role playing is in making in-game decisions the game reacts to in addition to the ways in which you can customize your character. Role-playing game doesn't mean "tabletop role-playing game simulator" and hasn't for decades now.

Your definition of RPG is so broad it may as well be useless, every multiplayer FPS with loadouts is RPG now.

 

[luj1]

More rage from the Morrowind crowd.

Tim believes that in action RPGs, skills should only affect things the player doesn't have direct control over. On the same page as Josh Sawyer.

1. Morrowind uses to-hit calculation, unlike most action RPGs, making in unique
2. Tim's last game was an abominable atrocity, forgotten in 6 months
3. Josh Sawyer (should be called Soyer) likes to talk about systems a lot. Ironically enough, he designed some of the worst core systems this industry has ever seen. He never made anything remotely on Morrowind's level, nor will he. 20 years from now Josh is going to be a balding woman called Melinda, meanwhile people will still play Morrowind and debate the intricacies of its lore

 

[luj1]

The role playing is in making in-game decisions the game reacts to in addition to the ways in which you can customize your character. Role-playing game doesn't mean "tabletop role-playing game simulator" and hasn't for decades now.

Your definition of RPG is so broad it may as well be useless, every multiplayer FPS with loadouts is RPG now.

It needs to be known that Roguey strongly dislikes one of the best RPGs ever made (Arcanum), while simultaneously praising one of the worst disasters in the last 20 years (Pillars). I suggest you take what he says with a Mt Everest of salt. Also I am 90% certain that he is a transvestite.

 

[Roguey]

Everything you do in a video game gets a reaction.

The role playing is in making in-game decisions the game reacts to in addition to the ways in which you can customize your character. Role-playing game doesn't mean "tabletop role-playing game simulator" and hasn't for decades now.

Your definition of RPG is so broad it may as well be useless, every multiplayer FPS with loadouts is RPG now.

Most games don't have the kind of scripted and systemic reactivity that RPGs have.

2. Tim's last game was an abominable atrocity, forgotten in 6 months

As Tim likes to point out, it sold over 5 million copies over time and is his best-selling game.

 

[luj1]

As Tim likes to point out, it sold over 5 million copies over time and is his best-selling game.

Skyrim sold 60 million copies despite being a dumbed-down game and artistically sterile technical zombie which couldn't even use more than a single CPU core. Most people have low standards and will just throw money at anything.

There was nothing in Tim's game to make possible any kind of lasting memory or cult status, unlike his earlier games. So while it might be his best-selling game, it is probably his worst.

 

[Max Damage]

Most games don't have the kind of scripted and systemic reactivity that RPGs have.

Still vague, by that definition series like Hitman and Dishonored are RPGs.

 

[Roguey]

Still vague, by that definition series like Hitman and Dishonored are RPGs.

Imsims like those and Thief are role-playing very specific roles without the large commitment to scripted reactivity. The personalities of those characters are largely set in stone.

 

[Butter]

Super Mario Galaxy is an immsim about roleplaying as a space plumber.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm not really interested in definition-of-an-RPG debates, but IMO a useful way to look at is this:

The quality that makes a good roleplaying game is not merely being a "game where you can build a character", nor of course a "game where the world reacts to you".

A good roleplaying game is one where you can build characters such that you to are able consistently express yourself as a wide variety of identifiable character archetypes in the context of a fictional world.

Playing as "the dude who put 4 points into STR" in a linear action game with token RPG elements is character building, but as a roleplaying experience the way I defined above, it's very weak.

 

[luj1]

I'm not really interested in definition-of-an-RPG debates

That much is evident by looking at the front page

 

[BosanskiSeljak]

I'm not really interested in definition-of-an-RPG debates

That much is evident by looking at the front page

Are you saying Binding of Isaac isn't an RPG? How dare you

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

1. Morrowind uses to-hit calculation, unlike most action RPGs, making in unique

Dungeon Master and its "real-time blobber" derivatives employ to-hit calculations, as does Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss and its derivatives (including the first two Elder Scrolls games). Of course, none of these are action RPGs, and neither is Morrowind.

 

[Wesp5]

Additionally, it doesn't matter if you even cheat all your weapon stats to max at the beginning because the game was tuned for shrinking reticule-gameplay.

I don't know about Deus Ex, but with Ranged Combat 10 in Bloodlines (except for bringing the weapon up, which is still slow), the crosshair basically stops moving like it should.

 

[Roguey]

I don't know about Deus Ex, but with Ranged Combat 10 in Bloodlines (except for bringing the weapon up, which is still slow), the crosshair basically stops moving like it should.

The problem with guns in Bloodlines is that the ones in Santa Monica and Downtown have inherently bad accuracy and nothing about your character's statistics can improve them. You're making the experience harder for yourself if you try to use guns in the beginning.

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about how the rise of the internet changed game development, for better and for worse.