Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Harthwain]

This whole section was honestly terrible, and it stinks of someone who is trying to rationalize why designing games that appeal to the lowest common denominator doesn't actually effect the quality of the final product. First of all, driving a car up to a mountaintop versus rock climbing doesn't really work as an analogy related to setting, and instead would work far better as an analogy to video game system design.

[...]

I understand that this was just an analogy, but it actually was a really great one, just not in the way Tim wanted it to be.

Is it really a great analogy though? Some games are great exactly because they require effort on the player's part. This provides a sense of creativity, discovery and accomplishment. Dark Souls' ethos of "git gud" is the obvious and most known example of this, but there are also games like Kenshi, Oxygen Not Included, Outward, etc. where "climbing" is essential part of the process.

 

[Shadenuat]

At least we know that outer worlds was basically designed to be bad.

 

[Roguey]

programming on Chris' game Tyranny.

Avellone groaning at a non-owner referring to Tyranny as "his."

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Cain claims that the view from the top of the mountain is just as gorgeous regardless of how you got there, but is that really the case?

The mountain view may be gorgeous, but is it really objectively more gorgeous than a view of a field? The achievement of getting on a mountain is not the same as walking into a field, and it's what separates mountain view from a field view. The amount of labor/difficulty involved in a task is proportional to the amount of endorphins you'll receive upon the completion of the task. Is he tricking himself because he just wants to fit in with the "incloosive" crowd, or he is genuinely an idiot? Who knows.

Like they say, never meet your heroes. Tim is a bucket of disappointment. He made 2 good games. Everything else in him is a normie guy, a product of his time, with wrong ideas about the world most of the time.

I'm playing a ttrpg right now. We all somehow came to this unspoken rule that we don't talk about ourselves. What a gift. I'm so tired of people.

 

[ItsChon]

Is it really a great analogy though? Some games are great exactly because they require effort on the player's part. This provides a sense of creativity, discovery and accomplishment. Dark Souls' ethos of "git gud" is the obvious and most known example of this, but there are also games like Kenshi, Oxygen Not Included, Outward, etc. where "climbing" is essential part of the process.

He literally states in the video that some people might argue rock climbing to the top will make the view at the top of the mountain more meaningful.

Cain claims that the view from the top of the mountain is just as gorgeous regardless of how you got there, but is that really the case?

The mountain view may be gorgeous, but is it really objectively more gorgeous than a view of a field? The achievement of getting on a mountain is not the same as walking into a field, and it's what separates mountain view from a field view. The amount of labor/difficulty involved in a task is proportional to the amount of endorphins you'll receive upon the completion of the task. Is he tricking himself because he just wants to fit in with the "incloosive" crowd, or he is genuinely an idiot? Who knows.

Great point actually. Worthy of not just a brofist but a post to acknowledge said point.

 

[Goral]

Making excuses why he doesn't talk about The Outer Worlds. On the plus side he linked to Matt Barton's channel.

I talk about why I don't review games on this channel, and as an aside, why I am not talking about The Outer Worlds.Good channels to watch for reviews include:Game development: / @mattbarton Game reviews: / @mortismalgaming Deep dives into book lore: / @quinnsideas Book reviews (and great philosophy teaching): / @_jared Movie and TV show reviews: / @erikkain

 

[Roguey]

Tim Cain's a Halo fan, huh? I've been going through the first game these past few days, a bit perplexed about why it took off the way it did.

 

[Ivan]

the multiplayer

 

[0sacred]

Probably has everything to do with being a soft spoken, conflict averse faggot and nothing to do with anything else.

 

[The_Mask]

Probably has everything to do with being a soft spoken, conflict averse faggot and nothing to do with anything else.

Maybe. But this soft-spoken, conflict averse faggot made Fallout, so... people would more interested in what he has to say, rather than what you have to say.

Besides, it's not like he can't change his mind? He has all the time in the world. He can just play a game, and then give his 2 cents for 10 minutes. Nobody can fault a man for eventually becoming a grandpa.

 

[0sacred]

Maybe. But this soft-spoken, conflict averse faggot made Fallout, so... people would more interested in what he has to say, rather than what you have to say.

"b-but he made Fallout" is why this thread exists

 

[The_Mask]

"b-but he made Fallout" is why this thread exists

Yes.

 

[None]

All the reasons he states why he would be a bad reviewer is why I think he'd be a good reviewer. He has the experience of a industry veteran and the perspective of one, that lends itself to a far more informed critique. 0sacred has got it right, he is just hyper-averse to any sort of conflict.

 

[FalayedGong]

Making excuses why he doesn't talk about The Outer Worlds. On the plus side he linked to Matt Barton's channel.

I talk about why I don't review games on this channel, and as an aside, why I am not talking about The Outer Worlds.Good channels to watch for reviews include:Game development: / @mattbarton Game reviews: / @mortismalgaming Deep dives into book lore: / @quinnsideas Book reviews (and great philosophy teaching): / @_jared Movie and TV show reviews: / @erikkain

That's a very cucked take from him, if I solve a puzzle and feel like it's badly designed then yeah, I can agree, I'm gonna be more pissed at it than if I knew fuck all on puzzle design. However it goes the opposite way as well, if I solve a puzzle and I feel it's well designed it makes everything feel way more satisfying than if I just didn't care about it at all and moved on with my day. It's the difference between reading or watching something passively, just going along for the ride and seeing how it plays out, versus actively, where you're trying to piece together clues figuring out where the story's going. If your story is shit then yes, reading it passively can potentially allow you to ignore mistakes, making it more enjoyable. However if it's well written not only will it not ruin the experience, you can appreciate the story on a entirely differently level. as realize just how clever the whole experience actually was. Not to mention that being passive only potentially fixes the issue, you can still have something so dogshit that even the braindead are rolling in their graves. And I'd argue that if you can't pinpoint why something isn't working for you it makes you more likely to keep stumbling into bullshit. Where as being critical can really allow you to hone in on your tastes, making it more likely you'll stumble into games you enjoy on a deeper level.

 

[Egosphere]

the multiplayer

And it had the split screen option from the get go as well, right? That really made the game. People would get together after school and have a single player campaign to play through together.

 

[conan_edw]

3:17 well they should've listened to her mansplaining Fallout 1 art style to them rather than doubling down on what ended up being the art style of TOW

 

[Egosphere]

3:17 well they should've listened to her mansplaining Fallout 1 art style to them rather than doubling down on what ended up being the art style of TOW

Boyarsky himself said no...
It's over

 

[Alienman]

 

[Roguey]

Loving how professors at the diploma mills are encouraging their students to commit fraud.

"If there's a game that you can make a build, a character build in an RPG that literally can't finish the game, that's bad" - Tim Cain going full Sawyer. He also seethed that he lost a lot of progress in Ultima Underworld because he accidentally destroyed a critical item.

"I know I'm not good at balancing, find someone good at that," - Tim wishing Sawyer was more involved in The Outer Worlds

3:17 well they should've listened to her mansplaining Fallout 1 art style to them rather than doubling down on what ended up being the art style of TOW

Name that woman and promote her. Leonard was wrong and she was right to be condescending to that old has-been. Saying he knew better is appeal-to-authority.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Tim idea that Leonard being an author of Fallout art style must necessarily mean he understands why the art style works is fallacious. Authors routinely fail to understand why their art works.

 

[Harthwain]

"If there's a game that you can make a build, a character build in an RPG that literally can't finish the game, that's bad" - Tim Cain going full Sawyer.

He's basically calling Fallout 2 bad.

 

[Roguey]

I think it was Hannah Kennedy.

That doesn't seem likely to me since she was just a concept artist and doesn't come across as a Fallout superfan or a person of taste.

 

[bobocrunch]

Cain talking about how he doesn't really care about people's opinions unless he knows them / what they care about is pretty funny when you think about the Obsidian Glassdoor reviews about them being incompetent micromanagers who don't have any flexibility or care for junior staff's takes. Tim (and I'm sure the boomer crew by extension) is proud of stifling what little creativity or passion can bloom in the company out of some fixation on uninspired and outdated technique, choosing to instead bump up people who don't rock the boat and fit their story-first outlook like Writer Carrie to direct a Skyrim clone

Put these dudes on ice already they've had enough chances

 

[NoMoneyNoFameNoDame]

Tim idea that Leonard being an author of Fallout art style must necessarily mean he understands why the art style works is fallacious. Authors routinely fail to understand why their art works.

I found an interesting transcript of Boyarski debating Outer World's art style with some woman.
It is unverified ofcourse.

Woman: Hey Mr. B.

Boyarski: What's up, *redacted*?

Woman: I've been researching FO1's art style as a reference, and I noticed it has many advantages over this new art style you've defined.
Have you thought about just using it instead of the new art style? You are after-all the best guy to teach how to do it.

Boyarski: No. Absolutely No. Laughs. My job as an artist is to keep advancing.
And the best way to do that is to let old themes die and try new ones hoping for similar success.
This is what progress is and will always be. Coincidences would have to happen for me to be inspired to do anything with FO1's art style anyway.

Woman: Yeah but I think FO1 art style does coincidentally have better visuals to it than TOWs current. It's for a couple reasons..

Boyarski: Ha! That's nice of you to say. But I mean this respectfully you're just not fully grasping how TOW's aesthetic will be received.
We need an aesthetic for the current era. That's why I joined Obsidian to make something original. The glory of the old days
died when Vampire shipped early. I won't go into that again. The past traumatizes me to even think about. Which is exactly why Rick & Morty meets No Man Sky
is the futuristic and best way to intelligently go about the whole aesthetic. Who cares what looks better? What's new is more important challenge.

Woman: Uh.. right. I understand where you're coming from but I just think the FO1 art style has some exceptional merits to it even today.
TOW's doesn't seem to have the same exceptionalism about it. If you could hear me out..

Boyarski: Oof. Listen *redacted*, putting side all subjective considerations, I already know that ok?
I wish you simply would read between the lines here. Laughs. What i'm trying to achieve is just different ok?
This game's aesthetic is about progress. We're not making Fallout. We just aren't.
The whole point of this new universe is it's not actually Fallout, but we're gonna pretend it can be.
You may as well bring up Arcanum's style, and that would be silly. Been there done that.

Woman: Fine, my mistake I thought you would be more open discussing my suggestion in detail, and I was wrong make that assumption.

Boyarski: Hey i'm sorry if I seem so closed to entertaining the idea. I just know for the game we're making,
it doesn't need FO1's art style to be good. FO1's art style is finished, and I don't see how to evolve it, I don't want to think about it.
What matters right now is I am a Co-Director with Tim, which makes me a designer first and an artist second. Trust me on this *redacted*.
Decision is made.

Woman: It's ok Mr B, thanks for hearing me out.

Boyarski: Sure anytime. Oh and remind Chris *redacted* to update the list of offensive character names.

Woman: Will do.

 

[Beans00]

Tim Cain's a Halo fan, huh? I've been going through the first game these past few days, a bit perplexed about why it took off the way it did.

Because it was fun in co op and multiplayer, and most normal people have friends to play games with.