Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[The_Mask]

Interplay did two rpgs based on Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers:

Do you think they're working on the 3rd one?

 

[Nortar]

Huh, updated my txt. I've always assumed Leonard was from some kind of working class Slavic-American background.

Boyarsky Name Meaning
Jewish (from Belarus and Ukraine): habitational name for someone from Boyary in Belarus or Boyarka in Ukraine.

Polish: status name or nickname from bojar ‘boyar’ (a member of the old Russian aristocracy). Compare Boyar.

It's funny how they dance around the term literally meaning a "member of Russian aristocracy", but never otherwise mention the russian roots.

Anyways, one can't simply talk about Boyarsky and not link this guy.

 

[Egosphere]

Huh, updated my txt. I've always assumed Leonard was from some kind of working class Slavic-American background.

He most likely is, since Jewish ancestry is highest in Hungary and Russia, due to a lot of Jews melting into the general population. He literally says he's of Russian heritage in the vid, then goes after a more general 'East euro' identity, then says he's Jewish later.

 

[NecroLord]

since Jewish ancestry is highest in Hungary and Russia

*Cough Poland cough*

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

 

[Roguey]

Tim Cain doesn't care for predefined protagonists like The Nameless One, Geralt, Michael Thorton, Henry of Skalitz, and Harry Du Bois. Which makes sense given that Fallout, Arcanum, ToEE, Bloodlines, and Outer Worlds all use blank-slate characters.

He calls Sawyer brilliant for explicitly outlining goals a game should have. "Josh is a very good system mechanic designer."

"Unconstructive feedback is worthless." - Tim Cain tells off The Outer Worlds-haters.

 

[d1nolore]

Most important thing Tim says here:

“If you really are an RPG; don’t assign me a character, don’t assign me a role”

This is what defines what an RPG is. People say this nonsense that an RPG is a game that you ‘play a role’. This is incorrect, all games ‘have a role’, an RPG is defined by “Roleplaying”.

If you watch a movie the lead actor is playing a role, but this is not called roleplaying, this is called acting. If you are roleplaying this is free form, not reading a script.

Obviously this varies from RPG to RPG as the challenge is implementing roleplaying mechanics.

 

[Harthwain]

Most important thing Tim says here:

“If you really are an RPG; don’t assign me a character, don’t assign me a role”

This is what defines what an RPG is. People say this nonsense that an RPG is a game that you ‘play a role’. This is incorrect, all games ‘have a role’, an RPG is defined by “Roleplaying”.

I would point to Arcanum's backgrounds - they serve as character's "roles". Sort of personal histories you can pick to further define who you are (outside of stats, race, etc.).

 

[Maxie]

Huh, updated my txt. I've always assumed Leonard was from some kind of working class Slavic-American background.

Boyarsky Name Meaning
Jewish (from Belarus and Ukraine): habitational name for someone from Boyary in Belarus or Boyarka in Ukraine.

Polish: status name or nickname from bojar ‘boyar’ (a member of the old Russian aristocracy). Compare Boyar.

It's funny how they dance around the term literally meaning a "member of Russian aristocracy", but never otherwise mention the russian roots.

Anyways, one can't simply talk about Boyarsky and not link this guy.

what are you, dumb? this surname literally means a peasant from a village called Bojary

 

[d1nolore]

Most important thing Tim says here:

“If you really are an RPG; don’t assign me a character, don’t assign me a role”

This is what defines what an RPG is. People say this nonsense that an RPG is a game that you ‘play a role’. This is incorrect, all games ‘have a role’, an RPG is defined by “Roleplaying”.

I would point to Arcanum's backgrounds - they serve as character's "roles". Sort of personal histories you can pick to further define who you are (outside of stats, race, etc.).

Those are not roles, they don’t play into the game at all beyond starting mechanics. But that’s not on the point at all. It’s about the act of roleplaying; choices, consequences, reactivity, freedom. cRPG is meant to be a translation of ttRPG where you roleplay with the assistance of the DM. Facilitating roleplay through mechanics is what defines the genre.

So if you look at a game like Diablo you play the role of a character but you cannot do any actual roleplaying. Which is fine it’s just a different genre.

It’s not really important how a game is defined or what group it fits in. The real point to take away is; what constitutes roleplaying mechanics and how do you make a good roleplaying game.

 

[Diggfinger]

Tim Cain doesn't care for predefined protagonists like The Nameless One, Geralt, Michael Thorton, Henry of Skalitz, and Harry Du Bois. Which makes sense given that Fallout, Arcanum, ToEE, Bloodlines, and Outer Worlds all use blank-slate characters.

He calls Sawyer brilliant for explicitly outlining goals a game should have. "Josh is a very good system mechanic designer."

Yay!!

But....

Spoiler

Does this mean Tim Cain gets banned from Da Codex?

 

[Roguey]

So if you look at a game like Diablo you play the role of a character but you cannot do any actual roleplaying. Which is fine it’s just a different genre.

As the VP of Blizzard noted back on usenet in the 90s, straight-forward dungeon crawling with no "role-playing" was how the Blizzard crew played D&D https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...-comp-sys-ibm-pc-games-rpg.92017/post-3305680

 

[Harthwain]

Those are not roles, they don’t play into the game at all beyond starting mechanics.

I disagree. Idiot Savant background will impact you throughout the entire game.

Something like a race (which can also be tied to specific backgrounds!) is another example, although the choice of a race is way more common in cRPGs (as opposed to being able to pick backgrounds). Then again, one could argue that in a lot of cRPGs a race is somewhere between a skin and a bit of mechanical bonuses/penalties, without much impact on how NPCs perceive your character (which, in my opinion, is THE most important aspect of a race. Because having it represented mechanically is good, but not good enough).

But that’s not on the point at all. It’s about the act of roleplaying; choices, consequences, reactivity, freedom. cRPG is meant to be a translation of ttRPG where you roleplay with the assistance of the DM.

When you roleplay, you roleplay as someone with a specific background. It's one of the essential elements that define a character.

Maybe it would be much clearer if we were to use the word "actor" instead of "character". Because that's exactly what the player is supposed to be: an actor playing a certain role in the world. If you're an elf, you will get treated like one. If you're a criminal, you will be treated like one. If you're weak, then you can't lift huge stone boulders. It's all part of the same thing: roleplay mechanics.

 

[d1nolore]

Those are not roles, they don’t play into the game at all beyond starting mechanics.

I disagree. Idiot Savant background will impact you throughout the entire game.

Something like a race (which can also be tied to specific backgrounds!) is another example, although the choice of a race is way more common in cRPGs (as opposed to being able to pick backgrounds). Then again, one could argue that in a lot of cRPGs a race is somewhere between a skin and a bit of mechanical bonuses/penalties, without much impact on how NPCs perceive your character (which, in my opinion, is THE most important aspect of a race. Because having it represented mechanically is good, but not good enough).

But that’s not on the point at all. It’s about the act of roleplaying; choices, consequences, reactivity, freedom. cRPG is meant to be a translation of ttRPG where you roleplay with the assistance of the DM.

When you roleplay, you roleplay as someone with a specific background. It's one of the essential elements that define a character.

Maybe it would be much clearer if we were to use the word "actor" instead of "character". Because that's exactly what the player is supposed to be: an actor playing a certain role in the world. If you're an elf, you will get treated like one. If you're a criminal, you will be treated like one. If you're weak, then you can't lift huge stone boulders. It's all part of the same thing: roleplay mechanics.

That’s different than assigning a character or role. Backgrounds are just a small variable you can choose from to further make a character different.

It really comes down to playing a role vs roleplaying; almost all games you play a role but you do not define them as a rpg.

Command & Conquer you play a role, Wing Commander you play a role, neither are classed as roleplaying games. Roleplaying games are meant to be defined by the act.

RPG is used as a catch all definition for games that visually look similar. But a lot of these don’t have any roleplaying and would primarily be defined by action or tactical combat, or whatever.

This is why games like Arcanum is so beloved because they offer more roleplaying mechanics. Despite all the flaws.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

It’s not really important how a game is defined or what group it fits in. The real point to take away is; what constitutes roleplaying mechanics and how do you make a good roleplaying game.

Role-playing mechanics consist of three essential sets of components: characters, combat, and exploration. More precisely, we could define the crucial individual elements within those sets of components:
1. Character Progression (leveling up to become more powerful)
2. Character Customization (at least classes and attributes, though classes can be replaced by a skill-based system; party customization can substitute)
3. Equipment (weapon, armor, other things that give active or passive benefits; better equipment makes a character more powerful)
4. Inventory (items on hand that can be switched with equipment or consumed)
5. Character-Skill-Based (player chooses character’s action, but success of character’s actions depends on statistics and the game system, not the action of the player)
6. Deliberation (player has opportunity to consider character’s actions before choosing what to do; in real-time games at least a pause function)
7. Randomness (dice-rolls or something else to remove determinism)
8. Statistics (game system is coherent and transparent enough that player can weigh the numbers to gauge the chance of success in an action)
9. Exploration (player has control over character’s movement through the gamespace and can make meaningful exploration decisions rather than follow linear path)
10. Dungeons (a mythic underworld to explore; many RPGs have only a dungeon without an overworld, but it is more difficult to be an RPG with an overworld but no dungeons)
11. Openness (players have control over their characters’ movements and objectives in the world rather than being forced into particular quests; difficult in CRPGs and fairly rare)
12. Logistics (players must manage their characters’ resources, due to inventory limitations, encumbrance, stamina/fatigue, need for food, need for water, need for sleep, realistic lighting and a day/night cycle, Vancian magic memorization, weapon/armor deterioration and repair, etc.)


The large majority of RPGs can be categorized into a handful of major subgenres. Just as RPGs can be categorized by major subgenres, we can also identify RPG-adjacent genres of games, which have similarity with RPGs but are clearly distinct.

Major RPG Subgenres, with suggestions of games that are both high quality and exemplary of the subgenre:

1. Rogue-likes: Rogue (1980), Telengard (1982), Nethack (1987), Ancient Domains of Mystery (1994)
2. Turn-Based Blobbers: Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981), Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge (1990), Might & Magic: World of Xeen (1994), Grimoire: Winged Heralds of the Exemplar (2017)
3. Garriot-likes: Ultima III: Exodus (1983), Ultima IV: The Quest of the Avatar (1985), Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992)
4. Real-Time Blobbers: Dungeon Master (1987) & Chaos Strikes Back (1989), Legend of Grimrock (2012) & Legend of Grimrock II (2014), Eye of the Beholder (1991), Black Crypt (1992)
5. Tactical RPG: Pool of Radiance (1988), Death Knights of Krynn (1991), and other Gold Box games, Wizard’s Crown (1986), Perihelion (1993)
6. Underworld-likes: Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), UU II: The Labyrinth of Worlds (1993), The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (1996), King’s Field IV: The Ancient City (2002)
7. JRPG: Final Fantasy VI (1994), Final Fantasy IV (1991), Final Fantasy IX (2000), Planescape: Torment (1999)
8. C&C RPGs: Fallout (1997), Fallout 2 (1998), Arcanum (2001), Age of Decadence (2015)
9. Open World RPGs: The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (2002), The Faery Tale Adventure (1986), Fallout: New Vegas (2010), Kingdom Come: Deliverance (2018)
10. Action RPG: Dragon’s Dogma: Dark Arisen (2012/2013)
    • Diablo (1997) and various imitators
    • Demon’s Souls (2009), Dark Souls (2011), Salt & Sanctuary (2016)

RPG-Adjacent Genres:

1. Squad-based Tactics w/RPG elements: Jagged Alliance 2 (1999), X-Com (1994), Final Fantasy Tactics (1997), Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children (2020)
2. Strategy w/RPG elements: Heroes of Might & Magic II (1996) and other HoMM games, Sword of Aragon (1989)
3. Adventure w/RPG elements: Quest for Glory (1990) and sequels
4. Beat-‘em-ups w/RPG elements: Dragon’s Crown (2013), Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom (1994) / Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara (1996)
5. Action w/RPG elements: Deus Ex (2000), Blade of Darkness (2001), NieR: Automata (2017)
6. Metroidvania w/RPG elements: Bloodstained (2019), Hollow Knight (2017)
7. MMORPGs: Everquest (1997), Ultima Online (1998)
8. Person Simulator: Alter Ego (1986), Princess Maker (1991) series, Wonder Project J (1994)
9. Gamebooks: Warlock of Firetop Mountain (2016), Disco Elysium (2019)

 

[Melcar]

So this is going to turn into another "what is an RPG?" thread?

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

The bit about "rpgs are a game where you play a role" stems from the dire situation that games went through in the mid to late 00s, at least when it comes to video games. It's a penis envy type of deal where RPGs are a genre for people who "read books" (congratulations, you can do the same things than a primary school kid can) and therefore more respectable on an era where every game seemed to be a brown shooter. For rpg fans who were into this sort of thing before that started happening it's a bit of a joke to make such comparisons and divisions, although there's the thing of rpg divisions getting blurry when non rpg genres started getting typical rpg elements (and this started happening before the 21st century, btw).

A tl:dr would be that "rpg" is more of a marketing thing than anything else.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

So this is going to turn into another "what is an RPG?" thread?

Banville's Law: As the number of posts in a Codex General RPG Discussion thread increases, the probability of the topic turning toward the definition of the RPG genre approaches one.

 

[d1nolore]

It’s not really important how a game is defined or what group it fits in. The real point to take away is; what constitutes roleplaying mechanics and how do you make a good roleplaying game.

Role-playing mechanics consist of three essential sets of components: characters, combat, and exploration. More precisely, we could define the crucial individual elements within those sets of components:
1. Character Progression (leveling up to become more powerful)
2. Character Customization (at least classes and attributes, though classes can be replaced by a skill-based system; party customization can substitute)
3. Equipment (weapon, armor, other things that give active or passive benefits; better equipment makes a character more powerful)
4. Inventory (items on hand that can be switched with equipment or consumed)
5. Character-Skill-Based (player chooses character’s action, but success of character’s actions depends on statistics and the game system, not the action of the player)
6. Deliberation (player has opportunity to consider character’s actions before choosing what to do; in real-time games at least a pause function)
7. Randomness (dice-rolls or something else to remove determinism)
8. Statistics (game system is coherent and transparent enough that player can weigh the numbers to gauge the chance of success in an action)
9. Exploration (player has control over character’s movement through the gamespace and can make meaningful exploration decisions rather than follow linear path)
10. Dungeons (a mythic underworld to explore; many RPGs have only a dungeon without an overworld, but it is more difficult to be an RPG with an overworld but no dungeons)
11. Openness (players have control over their characters’ movements and objectives in the world rather than being forced into particular quests; difficult in CRPGs and fairly rare)
12. Logistics (players must manage their characters’ resources, due to inventory limitations, encumbrance, stamina/fatigue, need for food, need for water, need for sleep, realistic lighting and a day/night cycle, Vancian magic memorization, weapon/armor deterioration and repair, etc.)


The large majority of RPGs can be categorized into a handful of major subgenres. Just as RPGs can be categorized by major subgenres, we can also identify RPG-adjacent genres of games, which have similarity with RPGs but are clearly distinct.

Major RPG Subgenres, with suggestions of games that are both high quality and exemplary of the subgenre:

1. Rogue-likes: Rogue (1980), Telengard (1982), Nethack (1987), Ancient Domains of Mystery (1994)
2. Turn-Based Blobbers: Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981), Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge (1990), Might & Magic: World of Xeen (1994), Grimoire: Winged Heralds of the Exemplar (2017)
3. Garriot-likes: Ultima III: Exodus (1983), Ultima IV: The Quest of the Avatar (1985), Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992)
4. Real-Time Blobbers: Dungeon Master (1987) & Chaos Strikes Back (1989), Legend of Grimrock (2012) & Legend of Grimrock II (2014), Eye of the Beholder (1991), Black Crypt (1992)
5. Tactical RPG: Pool of Radiance (1988), Death Knights of Krynn (1991), and other Gold Box games, Wizard’s Crown (1986), Perihelion (1993)
6. Underworld-likes: Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), UU II: The Labyrinth of Worlds (1993), The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (1996), King’s Field IV: The Ancient City (2002)
7. JRPG: Final Fantasy VI (1994), Final Fantasy IV (1991), Final Fantasy IX (2000), Planescape: Torment (1999)
8. C&C RPGs: Fallout (1997), Fallout 2 (1998), Arcanum (2001), Age of Decadence (2015)
9. Open World RPGs: The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (2002), The Faery Tale Adventure (1986), Fallout: New Vegas (2010), Kingdom Come: Deliverance (2018)
10. Action RPG: Dragon’s Dogma: Dark Arisen (2012/2013)
    • Diablo (1997) and various imitators
    • Demon’s Souls (2009), Dark Souls (2011), Salt & Sanctuary (2016)

RPG-Adjacent Genres:

1. Squad-based Tactics w/RPG elements: Jagged Alliance 2 (1999), X-Com (1994), Final Fantasy Tactics (1997), Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children (2020)
2. Strategy w/RPG elements: Heroes of Might & Magic II (1996) and other HoMM games, Sword of Aragon (1989)
3. Adventure w/RPG elements: Quest for Glory (1990) and sequels
4. Beat-‘em-ups w/RPG elements: Dragon’s Crown (2013), Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom (1994) / Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara (1996)
5. Action w/RPG elements: Deus Ex (2000), Blade of Darkness (2001), NieR: Automata (2017)
6. Metroidvania w/RPG elements: Bloodstained (2019), Hollow Knight (2017)
7. MMORPGs: Everquest (1997), Ultima Online (1998)
8. Person Simulator: Alter Ego (1986), Princess Maker (1991) series, Wonder Project J (1994)
9. Gamebooks: Warlock of Firetop Mountain (2016), Disco Elysium (2019)

These are “Game mechanics” not roleplaying mechanics, roleplaying mechanics facilitate roleplaying, combat mechanics facilitate combat. Characters, Combat, and Exploration are characteristics of most games.

By your definition EVE is a tremendous RPG, and Heroes 3 is another favourite RPG, Destiny is another popular RPG. It’s all RPGs

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

It’s not really important how a game is defined or what group it fits in. The real point to take away is; what constitutes roleplaying mechanics and how do you make a good roleplaying game.

Role-playing mechanics consist of three essential sets of components: characters, combat, and exploration. More precisely, we could define the crucial individual elements within those sets of components:
1. Character Progression (leveling up to become more powerful)
2. Character Customization (at least classes and attributes, though classes can be replaced by a skill-based system; party customization can substitute)
3. Equipment (weapon, armor, other things that give active or passive benefits; better equipment makes a character more powerful)
4. Inventory (items on hand that can be switched with equipment or consumed)
5. Character-Skill-Based (player chooses character’s action, but success of character’s actions depends on statistics and the game system, not the action of the player)
6. Deliberation (player has opportunity to consider character’s actions before choosing what to do; in real-time games at least a pause function)
7. Randomness (dice-rolls or something else to remove determinism)
8. Statistics (game system is coherent and transparent enough that player can weigh the numbers to gauge the chance of success in an action)
9. Exploration (player has control over character’s movement through the gamespace and can make meaningful exploration decisions rather than follow linear path)
10. Dungeons (a mythic underworld to explore; many RPGs have only a dungeon without an overworld, but it is more difficult to be an RPG with an overworld but no dungeons)
11. Openness (players have control over their characters’ movements and objectives in the world rather than being forced into particular quests; difficult in CRPGs and fairly rare)
12. Logistics (players must manage their characters’ resources, due to inventory limitations, encumbrance, stamina/fatigue, need for food, need for water, need for sleep, realistic lighting and a day/night cycle, Vancian magic memorization, weapon/armor deterioration and repair, etc.)


The large majority of RPGs can be categorized into a handful of major subgenres. Just as RPGs can be categorized by major subgenres, we can also identify RPG-adjacent genres of games, which have similarity with RPGs but are clearly distinct.

Major RPG Subgenres, with suggestions of games that are both high quality and exemplary of the subgenre:

1. Rogue-likes: Rogue (1980), Telengard (1982), Nethack (1987), Ancient Domains of Mystery (1994)
2. Turn-Based Blobbers: Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (1981), Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge (1990), Might & Magic: World of Xeen (1994), Grimoire: Winged Heralds of the Exemplar (2017)
3. Garriot-likes: Ultima III: Exodus (1983), Ultima IV: The Quest of the Avatar (1985), Ultima VII: The Black Gate (1992)
4. Real-Time Blobbers: Dungeon Master (1987) & Chaos Strikes Back (1989), Legend of Grimrock (2012) & Legend of Grimrock II (2014), Eye of the Beholder (1991), Black Crypt (1992)
5. Tactical RPG: Pool of Radiance (1988), Death Knights of Krynn (1991), and other Gold Box games, Wizard’s Crown (1986), Perihelion (1993)
6. Underworld-likes: Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), UU II: The Labyrinth of Worlds (1993), The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (1996), King’s Field IV: The Ancient City (2002)
7. JRPG: Final Fantasy VI (1994), Final Fantasy IV (1991), Final Fantasy IX (2000), Planescape: Torment (1999)
8. C&C RPGs: Fallout (1997), Fallout 2 (1998), Arcanum (2001), Age of Decadence (2015)
9. Open World RPGs: The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (2002), The Faery Tale Adventure (1986), Fallout: New Vegas (2010), Kingdom Come: Deliverance (2018)
10. Action RPG: Dragon’s Dogma: Dark Arisen (2012/2013)
    • Diablo (1997) and various imitators
    • Demon’s Souls (2009), Dark Souls (2011), Salt & Sanctuary (2016)

RPG-Adjacent Genres:

1. Squad-based Tactics w/RPG elements: Jagged Alliance 2 (1999), X-Com (1994), Final Fantasy Tactics (1997), Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children (2020)
2. Strategy w/RPG elements: Heroes of Might & Magic II (1996) and other HoMM games, Sword of Aragon (1989)
3. Adventure w/RPG elements: Quest for Glory (1990) and sequels
4. Beat-‘em-ups w/RPG elements: Dragon’s Crown (2013), Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom (1994) / Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara (1996)
5. Action w/RPG elements: Deus Ex (2000), Blade of Darkness (2001), NieR: Automata (2017)
6. Metroidvania w/RPG elements: Bloodstained (2019), Hollow Knight (2017)
7. MMORPGs: Everquest (1997), Ultima Online (1998)
8. Person Simulator: Alter Ego (1986), Princess Maker (1991) series, Wonder Project J (1994)
9. Gamebooks: Warlock of Firetop Mountain (2016), Disco Elysium (2019)

These are “Game mechanics” not roleplaying mechanics, roleplaying mechanics facilitate roleplaying, combat mechanics facilitate combat. Characters, Combat, and Exploration are characteristics of most games.

By your definition EVE is a tremendous RPG, and Heroes 3 is another favourite RPG, Destiny is another popular RPG. It’s all RPGs

But that's another issue entirely and the genesis of the divide between the rpg definitions. Computer rpgs lack half of the rpg experience: the human interaction. The fun comes from roleplaying and acting out silly scenarios with your friends. You can't have an rpg without that. Even AI can't replicate it. And it goes beyond that, because you had a first generation of rpgs where the point was to replicate a ruleset, and another one where crpgs are made based off other crpgs. An IE clone tries to replicate Baldur's Gate, not AD&D.

 

[Harthwain]

It really comes down to playing a role vs roleplaying; almost all games you play a role but you do not define them as a rpg.

That's a nonsensical statement. You do not "play a role" by simply existing as a character would do in any piece of media. You PLAY the ROLE of someone. Like an actor. In order to do that you need to have an ability to affect the world (or at least have the option to do so). And you do that with a set of limitations (or abilities) defined by what kind of character you have. Conversely, the world reacts to what you do and who you are.

The biggest benefit of an RPG is that you can decide what kind of character you want to play as. So I am not at all surprised that Tim Cain dislikes being assigned set characters.

Command & Conquer you play a role, Wing Commander you play a role, neither are classed as roleplaying games.

You're trying to bring "playing a role" to an extreme by applying it all over the place so it's no wonder it breaks down. It doesn't really prove your point though...

Roleplaying games are meant to be defined by the act.

Yes, playing the game is part of role-playing. But for that you need tools first.

RPG is used as a catch all definition for games that visually look similar. But a lot of these don’t have any roleplaying and would primarily be defined by action or tactical combat, or whatever.

CRPGs tend to focus on action or tactical combat (or whatever) mostly because of their ancestry (that of combat games), technical limitations and the lack of vision to go beyond that. That's not true for PnP RPGs though. What really defines an there RPGs is your ability to interact with the world. And that's done by defining who you are as a character. This is exactly why the focus of an RPG is there: in the character creation (and development).

This is why games like Arcanum is so beloved because they offer more roleplaying mechanics. Despite all the flaws.

Certainly. And a big part of that is the world actually paying attention to your stats, background, race, etc. Which is not so obvious in many cRPGs. In Baldur's Gate, for example, you can be a half-Orc with 1 INT and it won't affect either how people react to you nor your dialogue options, because stats are geared purly towards combat. Arcanum, on the other hand, does that and more. Because it is not just a combat game.

 

[d1nolore]

Command & Conquer you play a role, Wing Commander you play a role, neither are classed as roleplaying games.

You're trying to bring "playing a role" to an extreme by applying it all over the place so it's no wonder it breaks down. It doesn't really prove your point though...

This is the point though, that is the definition that is used. Therefore this is where XCom becomes a top RPG. Which is nonsensical.

 

[Diggfinger]

Man, so much pain when he talks about Vampire... Poor bastard.

 

[Goral]

I talk about how the Bard's Tale Construction Set video game was made in 1991 at Interplay. I forgot to show the box for the game, but you can see a giant poster board reproduction of it on top of the display cabinet behind me.

What's most interesting for me though is that Tim will talk about MUDs in the future and how it influenced Fallout.

 

[Harthwain]

This is the point though, that is the definition that is used.

If there is a problem with the definition that is so because it's very vague. However, people misunderstanding the role-playing bit is on the people, not on the definition.