Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Hobo Elf]

And good luck with leveling some choice skills such as Barter or Speech. Yeah they're useless, but if you *wanted* to level them up, boy, good luck.

Despite the improvements in Skyrim (the skill increases based on item value instead of per transaction), it's also up for discussion whether "using the shop" should be a skill in a learn-by-doing system, since everyone's gonna do it.

It's a minor issue, but you occasionally do increase your Barter skill by selling and buying crap. However these skill increases do nothing for you as you're probably not investing in the perks. All it accomplishes is bump up your level with "dead skills" which is counter productive to you if you are leveling up via non-combat skills. It's not as disastrous as leveling up in unmodded Oblivion is, but it still highlights flaws in the current systems in place. And they aren't exactly hard to spot either. These aren't problems I've sat down to really think about.

 

[AW8]

It's a minor issue, but you occasionally do increase your Barter skill by selling and buying crap. However these skill increases do nothing for you as you're probably not investing in the perks. All it accomplishes is bump up your level with "dead skills" which is counter productive to you if you are leveling up via non-combat skills. It's not as disastrous as leveling up in unmodded Oblivion is, but it still highlights flaws in the current systems in place. And they aren't exactly hard to spot either. These aren't problems I've sat down to really think about.

Those problems lie more with level scaling and lack of non-combat ways to progress, though, rather than with the learn-by-doing approach.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

As always, the issue is with Bethesda's implementation, not something inherent to learn-by-doing system.

 

[PapaPetro]

It's a minor issue, but you occasionally do increase your Barter skill by selling and buying crap. However these skill increases do nothing for you as you're probably not investing in the perks. All it accomplishes is bump up your level with "dead skills" which is counter productive to you if you are leveling up via non-combat skills. It's not as disastrous as leveling up in unmodded Oblivion is, but it still highlights flaws in the current systems in place. And they aren't exactly hard to spot either. These aren't problems I've sat down to really think about.

Those problems lie more with level scaling and lack of non-combat ways to progress, though, rather than with the learn-by-doing approach.

It's because streamlining the design process over the years created this linear problem that feels unrewarding/unjust to modern players.
The early designers like Tim were playing off the cuff and were thinking non-linearly because they were treading new ground.
Back then, imbalance was expected and the best designers/dev teams could master the imbalance (through a lot of cleverness/crunch fixing it so the game didn't janga apart/suck).
Now, it's a math problem they teach at degree mills.

Here's an old but useful video talking about this non-linear/chiral design:

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about the phrase "perfect is the enemy of good" and its implications on game development.

 

[d1nolore]

Stop pretending Skyrim is a good game, it wasn’t good. Let’s make a worse Oblivion but add dragons..

 

[Hobo Elf]

It's a minor issue, but you occasionally do increase your Barter skill by selling and buying crap. However these skill increases do nothing for you as you're probably not investing in the perks. All it accomplishes is bump up your level with "dead skills" which is counter productive to you if you are leveling up via non-combat skills. It's not as disastrous as leveling up in unmodded Oblivion is, but it still highlights flaws in the current systems in place. And they aren't exactly hard to spot either. These aren't problems I've sat down to really think about.

Those problems lie more with level scaling and lack of non-combat ways to progress, though, rather than with the learn-by-doing approach.

I'm just poking holes at Bethesda's character system in general now, and responding to you saying that Barter and Speech might be better off as non-skills, which I agree.

 

[mindx2]

Going by his take on romance he must have been playing BG3.

Exactly what I was thinking! He describes BG3 romances perfectly without actually naming it!

 

[Grauken]

Fallout 2 originally started with you playing as the Vault Dweller who gets beaten back to level 1 and left with amnesia.

Fallout 2 should have continued the story of the Vault Dweller, I always thought this was a big missed chance that led the world timeline advancing too fast due to the time jump, and then we got the F3 nonsense

 

[PapaPetro]

Going by his take on romance he must have been playing BG3.

Exactly what I was thinking! He describes BG3 romances perfectly without actually naming it!

Yeah, I think the first camp scene is fresh in everyone's minds...

Oversexed cRPG

 

[Bester]

Cain on tropes: "I hate when the player gets hit on the head and then the game starts"
FNV: "Cool."

Tells you how much pull TC had at Obshitian.

 

[Roguey]

"It was our responsibility to do more to make the game better, but the people making the decisions on game quality kept getting distracted by shiny objects." - Avellone on perfect being the enemy of good on New Vegas (referring specifically to caravan, ammo crafting, and the looping reload animations)

Monarch in TOW was originally supposed to be a big open world area but had to be cut.

The reason why you have a jagged walk in Fallout is because they spent too much time trying to make sure the walk didn't look floaty.

Fallout 2 should have continued the story of the Vault Dweller, I always thought this was a big missed chance that led the world timeline advancing too fast due to the time jump, and then we got the F3 nonsense

I disagree. It would have been weird to start all over as a level 1 nothing. 2 also doesn't advance too far ahead; Tandi's still alive as an old woman.

Cain on tropes: "I hate when the player gets hit on the head and then the game starts"
FNV: "Cool."

There's an occasional misconception that getting shot in the head in New Vegas gives you amnesia, but that isn't the case.

kotor 2 is an example of a game without amnesia that does things awkwardly. It's bizarre when your character refers to events you've never heard about, or expresses great familiarity when greeting characters you've never met.

 

[Bester]

There's an occasional misconception that getting shot in the head in New Vegas gives you amnesia, but that isn't the case.

I know that some people think he's from NCR because he never asks about NCR, so he doesn't have amnesia.
But it's so paper thin, I want to say it doesn't count. For all intents and purposes, the courier plays 99% as amnesiac.
Being from a vault really gave a good explanation for not knowing the world. In FNV, there's no explanation at all that the courier has no past from before being hit on the head. The elephant in the room is ignored.

 

[Butter]

Cain on tropes: "I hate when the player gets hit on the head and then the game starts"
FNV: "Cool."

Tells you how much pull TC had at Obshitian.

He didn't work there when they made New Vegas.

 

[Roguey]

There's an occasional misconception that getting shot in the head in New Vegas gives you amnesia, but that isn't the case.

I know that some people think he's from NCR because he never asks about NCR, so he doesn't have amnesia.
But it's so paper thin, I want to say it doesn't count. For all intents and purposes, the courier plays 99% as amnesiac.
Being from a vault really gave a good explanation for not knowing the world. In FNV, there's no explanation at all that the courier has no past from before being hit on the head. The elephant in the room is ignored.

There are dialogues where you can talk about your past. You're just not particularly familiar with this region, having done most of your courier work elsewhere.

 

[Bester]

There's an occasional misconception that getting shot in the head in New Vegas gives you amnesia, but that isn't the case.

I know that some people think he's from NCR because he never asks about NCR, so he doesn't have amnesia.
But it's so paper thin, I want to say it doesn't count. For all intents and purposes, the courier plays 99% as amnesiac.
Being from a vault really gave a good explanation for not knowing the world. In FNV, there's no explanation at all that the courier has no past from before being hit on the head. The elephant in the room is ignored.

There are dialogues where you can talk about your past. You're just not particularly familiar with this region, having done most of your courier work elsewhere.

"What's a deathclaw?" is not a dialogue option indicative of a dweller of post-apocalyptic US. Being from another state doesn't cut it.

 

[Roguey]

"What's a deathclaw?" is not a dialogue option indicative of a dweller of post-apocalyptic US. Being from another state doesn't cut it.

Unless you can link to the dialogue where this happens I'll assume you misremembered it. https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/QJChompsLewis.txt doesn't have a "What's a deathclaw?" dialogue option. It's assumed you know about them, and ghouls, and super mutants. And why wouldn't you? This is a follow-up to Fallout 3, a game played by millions of people. Players know what these things are.

 

[Bester]

I'm certainly going from an impression of the game, as I remember that impression 13 years after the fact, not from factual data. I hated the game.

 

[AW8]

kotor 2 is an example of a game without amnesia that does things awkwardly. It's bizarre when your character refers to events you've never heard about, or expresses great familiarity when greeting characters you've never met.

I think it was natural and creative way to do exposition through the dialogue options. A lot of the story has to do with your past, so it makes sense that your character would have dialogue options pertaining to it instead of just reacting to what others say.

 

[Wintermute]

Fallout New Vegas release date: October 19, 2010
Tim Cain joined Obsidian in 2011.

 

[Harthwain]

It's a minor issue, but you occasionally do increase your Barter skill by selling and buying crap. However these skill increases do nothing for you as you're probably not investing in the perks. All it accomplishes is bump up your level with "dead skills" which is counter productive to you if you are leveling up via non-combat skills.

One speech perk I liked was the ability to bribe guards when your notoriety was low. I wish RPGs offered more options, such as barter (including trading a personal reputation with an NPC for stuff), more diplomacy options (soft-threatening with your faction-related gravitas) and other similar stuff. It is very rare to see more than the most basic functions when the whole speech section deserves its own system (same goes for relations with NPCs).

I disagree. It would have been weird to start all over as a level 1 nothing.

The idea that your character is a complete newbie is understandable and can work in some circumstances, but it is too commonly used. I would love to see more RPGs allow you to start with a few more levels, ideally in exchange for difficulty being higher to compensate. That way you can design your character a bit more and you don't have to grind through your first couple of levels to get into the swing of things.

 

[Infinitron]

In a brief digression from talking about game development, I discuss some lessons I have learned about making a YouTube channel.

 

[Roguey]

In this video he reveals that he records them in the afternoon and then uploads them the following morning. I was wondering about that since he typically puts them up around 6-8 AM his time.

 

[sans.aesthetic]

I talk about common tropes in video games, including ones I like and ones I don't like, and what tropes I have used in my own games.

Amnesia makes Cain seethe. Fallout 2 originally started with you playing as the Vault Dweller who gets beaten back to level 1 and left with amnesia.

"I don't like romance options in RPGs." Tim was all for paying for sex and casual flings in games, but long romance arcs? Ick. Though in our post-Tropes-vs-women world we couldn't even get the prostitutes in The Outer Worlds so (good old Sawyer included them in the Pillars games, though I'd be surprised to see them in Avowed).

Oh, please cite where "playing as the Vault Dweller who gets beaten back to level 1 and left with amnesia" was a Tim Cain original.

As for the rest of your statements, I'd already inferred you aint much a cerebral type so won't bother commenting in depth. You are a fool though.


Edit:

I do realize that I am replying to a staff member and won't be heard by most anyone else, but that is the point; in case you were wondering. I hold you in contempt and will make that known here, to you.

 

[Roguey]

Oh, please cite where "playing as the Vault Dweller who gets beaten back to level 1 and left with amnesia" was a Tim Cain original.

Is this an ESL issue? I never said it was his idea.

Fallout 2's original design by the original team that was doing it had the player waking up after being being attacked bandits and beaten over the head and having all their gear stolen and they had amnesia so this was a reason to reset the player to level one with no skills or perks or items.

I did not like that, neither did anyone else outside that team. It is part of the reason Fallout 2 got reassigned to me, that's how much people don't like amnesia.