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Caves of Lore - turn-based pixel art RPG inspired by classics

Kalarion

Serial Ratist
Patron
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
1,008
Location
San Antonio, TX
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong BattleTech Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
I finished this a few moments ago now attempting to fill out a couple last secrets.
Infested Chambers, I am 4/5 for secrets, got the three rune related ones (2 chests and the obelisk) and the secret room right next to the primary entrance to the place.

Renault Family Crypt, there is a pit where you can enter a number of coins to throw into no idea what the correct value is. Also seems to be a chamber in the southwest corner I can't reach.

Atticus Ley's crypt, I haven't not found the key to the door inside.

Is there a point to all these angelic statues that I am activating?

There is an unmarked whisper spot (that is, doesn't have an arcane mark) in the Infested Chambers. A book somewhere in the Bleak Halls/Athenaeum/Infested Chambers complex will tell you what word to speak, and where.

I don't know about the coins in the Renault Family Crypt. There is a chest and mining spot in the southwest corner, but as far as I know (1) there's no way to reach them except with telekinesis and (2) they're not considered part of the secrets anyway (at least, I have all secrets there and can't yet reach that chest).

Don't know about Atticus.

I believe the statues unlock the chest in Kalindraur behind the secret door where Naira is, but that's just a theory of mine. It's kind of frustrating because there are some sword statues I haven't been able to activate, and I'm not sure if it's because I haven't clicked from the correct position, they just can't be activated, or because of incorrect move spots blocking what should be the correct spot to activate.
 

LoreMaster

Red Plume
Developer
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
Messages
63
There is an unmarked whisper spot (that is, doesn't have an arcane mark) in the Infested Chambers. A book somewhere in the Bleak Halls/Athenaeum/Infested Chambers complex will tell you what word to speak, and where.

I don't know about the coins in the Renault Family Crypt. There is a chest and mining spot in the southwest corner, but as far as I know (1) there's no way to reach them except with telekinesis and (2) they're not considered part of the secrets anyway (at least, I have all secrets there and can't yet reach that chest).

Don't know about Atticus.

I believe the statues unlock the chest in Kalindraur behind the secret door where Naira is, but that's just a theory of mine. It's kind of frustrating because there are some sword statues I haven't been able to activate, and I'm not sure if it's because I haven't clicked from the correct position, they just can't be activated, or because of incorrect move spots blocking what should be the correct spot to activate.
Renault Family Crypt: Throw in a few hundred at once and it will unlock an area below you.
Southwest corner is not a place you can go, but you can telekinesis some items.
Atticus Ley's crypt: There is no key. Listen
All angles can be activated, but some require telekinesis. They must be facing away from you, and they change to face you after 1 second
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
11,203
There is an unmarked whisper spot (that is, doesn't have an arcane mark) in the Infested Chambers. A book somewhere in the Bleak Halls/Athenaeum/Infested Chambers complex will tell you what word to speak, and where.

I don't know about the coins in the Renault Family Crypt. There is a chest and mining spot in the southwest corner, but as far as I know (1) there's no way to reach them except with telekinesis and (2) they're not considered part of the secrets anyway (at least, I have all secrets there and can't yet reach that chest).

Don't know about Atticus.

I believe the statues unlock the chest in Kalindraur behind the secret door where Naira is, but that's just a theory of mine. It's kind of frustrating because there are some sword statues I haven't been able to activate, and I'm not sure if it's because I haven't clicked from the correct position, they just can't be activated, or because of incorrect move spots blocking what should be the correct spot to activate.

Ooph, already collected all books and notes and put them away in chests guess I got a lot of reading to do. Done, thanks

I figured out the coin bit and Atticus.

I managed to pick that chest's lock would make sense with all the iconography around it.

Oh that reminds me LoreMaster could you make it so you can read books that are inside containers?

Only mystery I've got left is figuring out if I missed a spellbook that gives Toxic Fumes. After that I guess I should unlock 2 more traits and wait a few years for the sequel.

Edit:
Is Barsuum's gear just a necklace, boots, a cloak, and gloves? Leunamaur's set is a helmet, belt, armor, gloves, boots, and a ring. Tethrys' set is a helmet, belt, gloves, armor, boots and an orb.
 
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LoreMaster

Red Plume
Developer
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
Messages
63
Oh that reminds me LoreMaster could you make it so you can read books that are inside containers?

Only mystery I've got left is figuring out if I missed a spellbook that gives Toxic Fumes. After that I guess I should unlock 2 more traits and wait a few years for the sequel.

Edit:
Is Barsuum's gear just a necklace, boots, a cloak, and gloves? Leunamaur's set is a helmet, belt, armor, gloves, boots, and a ring. Tethrys' set is a helmet, belt, gloves, armor, boots and an orb.
Yes, I could probably do that with books inside containers, but I need to get a few things done first.
Toxic Fumes is one of a few spells that you can't get from a book. You'll have to find it on magical gear.

Barsuum's gear is as you said, 4 pieces
But have you found any of Ashkin's gear? That's one that many miss
 

GentlemanCthulhu

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 10, 2019
Messages
1,479
Oh that reminds me LoreMaster could you make it so you can read books that are inside containers?

Only mystery I've got left is figuring out if I missed a spellbook that gives Toxic Fumes. After that I guess I should unlock 2 more traits and wait a few years for the sequel.

Edit:
Is Barsuum's gear just a necklace, boots, a cloak, and gloves? Leunamaur's set is a helmet, belt, armor, gloves, boots, and a ring. Tethrys' set is a helmet, belt, gloves, armor, boots and an orb.
Yes, I could probably do that with books inside containers, but I need to get a few things done first.
Toxic Fumes is one of a few spells that you can't get from a book. You'll have to find it on magical gear.

Barsuum's gear is as you said, 4 pieces
But have you found any of Ashkin's gear? That's one that many miss
Please make it so you initiate combat only if the MC collides with an enemy and not the companions. This makes fleeing really frustrating. It's a huge time waster.
 

LoreMaster

Red Plume
Developer
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
Messages
63
Please make it so you initiate combat only if the MC collides with an enemy and not the companions. This makes fleeing really frustrating. It's a huge time waster.
This is a tricky issue. I can probably tune it a bit, such as not including the last character or two. Stealth and Talents can help you manage encounters as well. If the collision was just the main character you could almost avoid every single fight in the game with enough speed boost, and I'd have to increase monster speed by a lot for balance, which would likely be more annoying.

I'll play around with some different things and see if I can tune it to feel less frustrating. I do get what you are saying. It is not a great feeling when the last guy in line get tagged by a monster as you are running away.
 

GentlemanCthulhu

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 10, 2019
Messages
1,479
Please make it so you initiate combat only if the MC collides with an enemy and not the companions. This makes fleeing really frustrating. It's a huge time waster.
This is a tricky issue. I can probably tune it a bit, such as not including the last character or two. Stealth and Talents can help you manage encounters as well. If the collision was just the main character you could almost avoid every single fight in the game with enough speed boost, and I'd have to increase monster speed by a lot for balance, which would likely be more annoying.

I'll play around with some different things and see if I can tune it to feel less frustrating. I do get what you are saying. It is not a great feeling when the last guy in line get tagged by a monster as you are running away.
Maybe the solution is not in the actual collision itself, but the overall combat fleeing experience. Being able to exit an encounter quicker could probably improve the situation as well. For instance, you could implement a flee button that:
- Speeds up turns / animations 10x.
- Automatically attempts to move every character to the edge of the screen in a direct path, in their turns.
- Skips the combat result report page.

Whereas the current experience is:
- Wait through turns until you can move a character,
- Manually move each character to the edge of the screen
- Press the flee button
- Repeat until every body is out
- Wait a few seconds for the report menu to appear then click out of it,
- Be given very little time to orient yourself back in the world, to even click away from the enemy
- Have your last companion get caught by the enemy
- Repeat until everybody is dead, so you are left with only one character who now has a realistic chance of escaping.

Anyways, I really like the game, but I think some of the interactions you have with the gameplay are seriously hindered by bad design.

I have issues with the UI as well:
- Overall i think the layouts should be reworked. This includes the inventory, the spells menu, the skills menu, and the camping menu.
- In general i think every UI element takes too much space, without actually improving visibility (eg. buttons, item icons, etc.)
- This is exacerbated somewhat by the low-poly font making it hard to read item descriptions, etc.
- The tooltips should appear much faster on mouse hover
- The button (and general UI element) placement could be much tighter
- UI elements don't feel great to interact with (eg. buttons don't give proper feedback).
- Use scrollbars instead of paging.

Some specific points:
- The inventory menu could perhaps be improved with a searchable list design, instead of the current icon-based design. In a pixelated game, the icon quality really matters when going with a visual approach. As is, it's very hard to tell what an item is, just by its icon.
- Again, a scrolling system would be easier than a paging one.
- There should be a way to filter items based on type. It's very difficult to navigate and find stuff when they are all dumped on the same page. I know there is a sort button, but it's still not enough.
- In the camping menu, you have to hold LMB while you click on the camping role buttons to assign someone to a task. This is odd and inconsistent with every other UI element, which makes it frustrating every time you camp, because the player is not taught by the rest of the UI to expect something like this. So every time, i try to assign someone to a role at camp, i click and let go of the button, and then realize i have to hold it down instead.
- In combat, clicking on an AOE does not immediately show the area of the effect of a spell/ability. Instead you have to click LMB first for them to show up. This is kinda similar to the issue with the camping assignment thing, but not exactly the same.
- I might be dumb, it's not clear to me at all how you can cancel a combat move / ability order. There really should be a option for this.
- The save / load menu is really strange. Again, just go with a list instead of laying out blockly elements like this over the whole screen. I think you tried to improve visibility by utilizing the entire screen in the menus, etc. But I really think it has had the opposite effect. You can achieve a lot here by just using a tighter, better planned layout. People give AAA UI design a lot of shit, and i often agree with them, especially with how soul-less and samey they all look. But I think one reason is that these layouts are battle tested over decades of video game design. They might be soul-less, but they are very functional and use screen real-estate really well.

Overall i'm not a big fan of the block / boxy UI design philosophy.

I realize some of these are very nit-picky, but i think a UI rework could greatly improve the player's experience in an otherwise great game.
 
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Cyberarmy

Love fool
Patron
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
8,706
Location
Smyrna - Scalanouva
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Just another gem that I'll easily skip if it wasn't for RPG Codex. Thanks again for the detailed review Kalarion

I'm liking the exploration aspect and game showing me how bad I was on that map (secrets 1/9 you fucking noob) Also the way that spell books written are awesome. Game really does justice to its name.
Also it is more awesome that we are the only one who still can able to read.
 
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Abu Antar

Turn-based Poster
Patron
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
14,358
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I also started it up. Going monk style. Enemies do 0 damage to my main character. Me and the doggo are H2H, one mage type character, and I gave the last one a bow.

I've found the settlement, but I barely have any secrets found.

First impression is that exploration is fun, and combat is fairly basic.
 

Cyberarmy

Love fool
Patron
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
8,706
Location
Smyrna - Scalanouva
Divinity: Original Sin 2
I tried my luck a bit with the rolling for a caster but then got really good stats for an archer thief. It is nice to set up first 2 party members as I want, thanks to skill up by using skills.
 

Fedora Master

STOP POSTING
Patron
Edgy
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
32,631
Okay, explain it to me like I'm 3:
What's the difference between increasing skills and adding points?
 

LoreMaster

Red Plume
Developer
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
Messages
63
LoreMaster how have sales been? I'm not asking for Vault Dweller-level frankness here (though that's always appreciated), just wondering whether you've done well, whether you view sales as a success etc.
I don't mind answering a bit. Sales were good at first since platform algorithms give you as boost, and now come in bursts. It's quite easy to disappear into obscurity in onslaught of new games and AAA titles if you don't have a marketing team (which I do not). It helps when people discuss the game because it gives it visibility, so this thread is very helpful. At this point my daily sales can range from 0 to 10. Not enough to be a full time job, but also nothing to snuff at. The reception from those who have played and total sales are still more than I ever expected from my little hobby.
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
11,203
Caves of Lore is the kind of game where you want to increase the difficulty as you play not from the very start. I tried turning it up at the start of new game and was getting one shotted by rats (and that might have even just been the second highest difficulty).
 

Jinn

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
5,542
"Brutal" seems to be a good option for early game. I agree with Modron that as soon as you start to feel yourself progressing significantly, turning up the difficulty by degrees is a good call.
 

Kaivokz

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
1,509
Kalarion thank you for the review. Ended up getting this and I'm having a lot of fun already.
Here's the build I decided to try...

lRLuUvm.jpg

I would have went 22/18/14 but the game wouldn't let me progress with 1 left-over attribute point...
 

LoreMaster

Red Plume
Developer
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
Messages
63
Kalarion thank you for the review. Ended up getting this and I'm having a lot of fun already.
Here's the build I decided to try...

lRLuUvm.jpg

I would have went 22/18/14 but the game wouldn't let me progress with 1 left-over attribute point...
Nice! Now, I don't want to ruin your start... but I just uploaded an update that will allow you to pick some different starting abilities. =D
 

Kaivokz

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
1,509
Nice! Now, I don't want to ruin your start... but I just uploaded an update that will allow you to pick some different starting abilities. =D
Ohh, I see... I can swap out strike and knockback for something I might actually use as a mage/cleric. I'm not very far, so I think I will restart :-D
 

Fedora Master

STOP POSTING
Patron
Edgy
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
32,631
I feel the Shepherd looks a bit... chinless.
 

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