CD Projekt's Cyberpunk 2077 Update 2.0 + Phantom Liberty Expansion Thread

[Wesp5]

Though I still argue the proper narrative solution would've been to structure Act I around V and Jackie working their Street Cred up to Dex's notice before getting tapped for the Heist.

Yep, that would have been the ideal, and I'm sure that probably was the original intention.

Well, shouldn't this be easy for some modders to implement once CDPR stops supporting the game?

 

[gurugeorge]

But how does that point makes sense when finishing all of side content literally takes weeks ? Not months or years. Moreover like i said Vic is guessing. He literally says weeks tops.

Also my point with Rogue is exactly what you said. It forces you to take part in side content. Yes there is stuff well after that point but narratively wise you are the one that chooses to do those sidejobs and motivation could be varied.

And like i said before. No one forces you to do anything. It is your choice to do everything if you wish so.

I mean if you don't like clock hanging around your neck that is fine. But it has place in narrative and it is perfectly reasonable for V to pursue other things than cure at times. Especially later on depending on your relationship with Johny which kind of teaches you that there are things in life more important than life itself.

This has been rehashed tons, but here it is again:-

1) There is a vast open world with tons of quests, that have absolutely no function in the V/Johnny story as presented. None. That whole pile of stuff might as well not be there.
2) Given the effort to make it, that vast, open world must have been part of the intent of the original design (we also know that they wanted some multiplayer aspect, so that fits too).
3) The V/Johnny story, while good, only makes sense in the context of someone having built up rep in the city, as it starts with being hired by the second biggest fixer in the city for a super-bold heist.
4) Building up rep and the vast open world dovetail so neatly that one can't help but think that was the original intent, but
5) It's only represented by the montage.

Keanu was not guaranteed. But Keanu agreed, they had a window of opportunity, so they made the fateful decision to squeeze as much as possible out of him in the time available and expand what would probably have been either the endgame (with some standard voice actor, if they couldn't get Keanu) or a DLC (if they couldn't get Keanu then for anything more than a cameo, but might have been able to get him later) into virtually the whole game (plus, by all accounts, Keanu got into the story and role himself, and it must be psychologically difficult to deney such a big star's wishes when you have him in the palm of your hand).

There was no time to finish both a) the full open world with quests as originally intended, and b) a very involved story with Keanu, so they plumped for rushing the latter and didn't finish the former, and they rejigged the game to have the V/Johnny story happen far earlier in the game than it otherwise would have.

They've denied this, but the logic of it, and the results in the game we've gotten, are just too obvious to deny. They're lying, just like they lied about the console stuff.

It's really a simple and easy mistake to make and one can understand how the rationale must have looked at the time, but basically it was a mistake. What they should have done is said, "OK we don't have time to do any more than a cameo now, but it would be really cool if you could come back and we'll do a big DLC in the next window of opportunity you have, that fully utilizes your talents." But it might be that they discovered that there was no later window of opportunity, so having the V/Johnny story as DLC was a no-go, so they had to utilize him when they had him, they had no other choice.

To me, it's pretty obvious that the huge, under-utilized voodoo boys area, and the brilliantly-started but rudely truncated AI quest (which obviously must have had ties to the Delamain quest, which fizzles out into nothing in the game we have), betoken that the original plan was to have the uncovering-the-AI plot be the original endgame (much more revolving around the voodoo boys and the net cops - who, be it noted, were presented as a more substantial faction in one of the teasers), with the V/Johnny story (supposing they got Keanu) as DLC. That would have been absolutely perfect. You'd have had the original game being that build up of rep plus the gradual uncovering of a vast AI plot leading to potential armageddon if not stopped, then you'd have had an amazing, surprise DLC with Keanu in the V/Johnny story we have now (with V being in a perfect position to be the guy chosen for the heist), making a perfect, bittersweet ending to V's story arc. It would have raked in an absolute shit-ton of extra money as a substantial linear action/adventure DLC.

 

[Gargaune]

But how does that point makes sense when finishing all of side content literally takes weeks ? Not months or years. Moreover like i said Vic is guessing. He literally says weeks tops.

Because it's not a believable reading of the circumstances, of V's motivations. When someone gets told they've got "a few weeks" to find an unknown cure, that's an extremely urgent situation, they would naturally beeline on that objective. Nobody right in the head would deviate from that goal to help Peralez with his voyeur problem or go to River's for a barbecue, and these happen well after Rogue's fee. You gotta remember, V doesn't know exactly how much time they've got nor whether there's a cure, let alone how long it would take to get it.

I think gurugeorge has covered most of it above, the urgent nature of the plot is sold hard to the player, both through the events of the critical thread and in various open world interactions, but then altogether ignored in the larger narrative scope of V's engaging with the side content. And I think he's right about the behind-the-scenes too, the plot really feels like it was suddenly rewired midway through development and certain critical elements were overlooked. Though I don't believe the hypothetical, original plot wasn't based around Silverhand - with or without Reeves, I suspect V getting stuck with the Relic was always the plan, but that the first chapter leading up to the Heist got cut down when a big Hollywood name came back asking for a larger part.

But I'd like to add a little story onto that to demonstrate the issue, because I'm long-winded like that...

You may find this text too long and therefore not read it

So here I am, playing Cyberpunk 2077. For some darn reason, I'd decided to do a follow-up mission with Panam, something after I'd already gotten what I needed from her for the main plot. Can't remember what possessed me to do so, but I do recall quite clearly I was fighting a gut instinct on it. So Panam and her merry band of junk cowboys have decided to rob a train. We go in, kill some poor dudes who were just minding their own business, squatting in a train station, then we fall back into CBP's "social" gameplay - follow marker, click button, receive heartfelt cinematic moment, you know the drill. And at one point Panam asks me a question, and pay attention 'cause here's where it gets good...

She asks me why I'm helping her. And my options are to tell her:
a) that we're ch00ms;
b) some other stupid shit along those lines;
c) that I wanna get paid.

And this is the moment where my gut instinct turned into a full blown realisation, the one that I was missing the proper dialogue option:
d) because I paid €60 for this fucking game and I'm trying to wring the fucking content out of it!

See, here's the rub, at this point in the plot, there is no reason for V, short of being a literal imbecile (in the deprecated medical sense), to engage with Panam's bullshit. You're on the clock, you're past Rogue's money gate, you're not "chooms" with someone you met 24 hours ago and even if you were, you've a far more urgent need than she does. Unwittingly, the devs shone a light on their own gaping inconsistencies.

So I wrapped up and never came back for any of Panam's content until I was done with the main plot. Didn't even think about doing Judy's crap. "Help me get revenge for Evelyn." But I did, the Voodoo Boys are dead, Netwatch fried the eggheads and I mopped up Flacide. "No, no, I mean help me in this labour dispute with Pimps-R-Us." Bitch, I'm dying here! The irony is that I ended up preferring Gigs for side content, because they were mostly gameplay-driven and it was easier to turn my brain off and just pew-pew without having to face these glaring reminders that the plot progression wasn't structured correctly.

And that's how I became the fresh prince of Night City.

Bottom line is, sure, you can ignore the urgency of the main plot and plenty of games ask you to gloss over certain details to play your own way, but CBP2077 is particularly and gratuitously egregious in this department.

Well, shouldn't this be easy for some modders to implement once CDPR stops supporting the game?

No, there's pervasive quest flows, dramatic assets, modders just don't have the tools for that sort of thing, not for a seamless refactor. Fallout 4 has something like that with Start Me Up, but you're talking about a game with a systemic approach to cinematic interactions and one of the most powerful public toolsets in the industry.

 

[Barbarian]

I am having quite a bit of fun with the game, honestly. It is quite playable now, regardless of remaining flaws.

(I'm at the meet Hanako part - holding off on it to complete side quests).

Mostly liked the writing so far, specially on some of the side quests. Also contrary to what I expected, woke BS didn't jump the eye or ruin things. There are a lot of strong independent wymmin, sure, and many nods to fags and dykes, but nothing that feels out of place in a urban cyberpunk dystopia that is supposed to mirror our bleak future. There was no forced YOU WILL TOLERATE DIVERSITY AND ENJOY GAY BUTTSECKS and surprisingly no focus on RAYCYSM! discussions or things of the sort.

 

[gurugeorge]

I suspect V getting stuck with the Relic was always the plan

Yeah I do believe that part of their disclaimer, I'm pretty sure that the game was always meant to lead up to that in one way or another. There are too many links to the other big side-quests for that not to be the case. The doubt for me is whether that was intended for the endgame of the main game or for a major DLC (with Johnny if they could get him, without if not, Plan A and Plan B). At any rate, it's definitely shoehorned in as the main story throughout the game, right from the beginning of when you're playing the game proper, the other design elements like the open world just don't gel with it.

Another thing that makes me lean that way: they seem to be floundering around for the DLC, but aren't DLCs usually planned out well in advance? It would make a lot of sense if the V/Johnny story was the "missing DLC" so to speak.

An AI plot involving the Voodoo Boys and Netwatch might have been more cliched as an endgame for the main game for diehard cyberpunk fans, but it would have been satisfactory enough for most people (especially if you consider how well the introduction of it is handled - it's hella immersive and really feels like you're lifting the corner on something big). I also think that Alt Cunningham would have formed the link between that main story (probably as a deus ex machina at the end of the main game) and the heavily Johnny-oriented DLC.

 

[Gargaune]

Yeah I do believe that part of their disclaimer, I'm pretty sure that the game was always meant to lead up to that in one way or another. There are too many links to the other big side-quests for that not to be the case. The doubt for me is whether that was intended for the endgame of the main game or for a major DLC (with Johnny if they could get him, without if not, Plan A and Plan B). At any rate, it's definitely shoehorned in as the main story throughout the game, right from the beginning of when you're playing the game proper, the other design elements like the open world just don't gel with it.

Another thing that makes me lean that way: they seem to be floundering around for the DLC, but aren't DLCs usually planned out well in advance? It would make a lot of sense if the V/Johnny story was the "missing DLC" so to speak.

An AI plot involving the Voodoo Boys and Netwatch might have been more cliched as an endgame for the main game for diehard cyberpunk fans, but it would have been satisfactory enough for most people (especially if you consider how well the introduction of it is handled - it's hella immersive and really feels like you're lifting the corner on something big). I also think that Alt Cunningham would have formed the link between that main story (probably as a deus ex machina at the end of the main game) and the heavily Johnny-oriented DLC.

The way I recall it, CDPR came out and said that they changed some stuff through development when Keanu Reeves "came back and asked for a bigger part", so he was already cast and recorded by that point. I don't think they'd have relegated such a publicity asset like Reeves to DLC material, by the point he was cast, Silverhand would've already been central to the base game's plot. And this tracks with the nature of the changes on the assumption that we were originally supposed to get a larger Chapter 1, focused on grinding V's rep in the open world, followed by a more linear roll through Chapters 2 and 3 with Johnny. You can easily see how such a refactor, downsizing Chapter 1 to have Johnny through most of the adventure, would result in the structural mistakes we got in the final product.

As for the delayed DLC, the thing is that this game's development has been unusually slow in general as we saw post-launch. For example, patch 1.5 was a good patch for the fixes and polish it offered... or rather, it would've been had it come a full year in advance, back in February 2021. Between the absurdly lethargic progress rate on CBP and how much CDPR's reputation is riding on this one and only expansion, I wouldn't read too much into the delay.

 

[gurugeorge]

I don't think they'd have relegated such a publicity asset like Reeves to DLC material, by the point he was cast, Silverhand would've already been central to the base game's plot.

That might be the mistake though, thinking they needed to have Keanu as the main game for the publicity. I mean it's not as if the game was lacking in hype is it? At the point of the Keanu reveal, the hype was already through the roof. The world and its mother was already set to buy the game anyway. And at the point of the Keanu reveal, did anyone expect more than a cameo, as the icing on the cake?

IOW, maybe they just over-thought it. (It would be interesting to see if the post-Keanu-reveal preorders were all that different from the pre-reveal, like some giant leap.)

But yeah, your scenario is possible too, and my AI-endgame might just be wishful thinking. We may never know

 

[Gargaune]

That might be the mistake though, thinking they needed to have Keanu as the main game for the publicity. I mean it's not as if the game was lacking in hype is it? At the point of the Keanu reveal, the hype was already through the roof. The world and its mother was already set to buy the game anyway. And at the point of the Keanu reveal, did anyone expect more than a cameo, as the icing on the cake?

IOW, maybe they just over-thought it. (It would be interesting to see if the post-Keanu-reveal preorders were all that different from the pre-reveal, like some giant leap.)

Sure, the game was in development long enough to accommodate multiple internal reboots. But I guess I'm just interested in the point where things went wrong to account for what we go, and I believe that was well after Reeves was already a definite part of the core game, specifically when they expanded his role. Based off what we see in the game today, I suspect this hypothetical "previous" iteration of the narrative design, with an open first chapter and a Silverhand-centric rest, would've worked well and they'd have still had enough Keanu™ to use him for publicity.

As for Reeves himself, I object to Hollywood castings and the longterm marketing effects on the industry, but I can't fault him for wanting "more work" and I felt his performance was good. The issue is that CDPR decided to cram a square peg into a round hole when they expanded his role and didn't fully track what they needed to shave off. At a minimum, they should've done what you suggested and downplayed the urgency of the Relic's threat to V, staggered its reveal with the progress of Chapter 2.

But yeah, your scenario is possible too, and my AI-endgame might just be wishful thinking. We may never know

Chin up, a former dev will squeal sooner or later. It's just too juicy a story to never make it into the public.

 

[CyberWhale]

At this point, only a stand alone expansion makes sense. It's been more than 18 months since the base game was released.

 

[Wesp5]

Well, shouldn't this be easy for some modders to implement once CDPR stops supporting the game?

No, there's pervasive quest flows, dramatic assets, modders just don't have the tools for that sort of thing, not for a seamless refactor.

I know nothing about modding Cyberpunk, but in Bloodlines for example there is a simple variable called Story_State which follows the main quest and is set in maps or dialogues. If there was something similar in Cyberpunk we would only need to join the intro to the main game, maybe skipping the montage, and then trigger the heist mission when a certain high street credit is reached! The main problem that I see is that in the thus enlarged part before the heist, Jackie would have been at our side and they pretty much did not plan for that.

 

[Gargaune]

I know nothing about modding Cyberpunk, but in Bloodlines for example there is a simple variable called Story_State which follows the main quest and is set in maps or dialogues. If there was something similar in Cyberpunk we would only need to join the intro to the main game, maybe skipping the montage, and then trigger the heist mission when a certain high street credit is reached! The main problem that I see is that in the thus enlarged part before the heist, Jackie would have been at our side and they pretty much did not plan for that.

It's not that simple, there are other complications (like Jackie) that you'd need to address. You'd also have to change world states to open up Night City, suppress Johnny's appearences and provide alternative guidance in applicable quests, scour the entire dialogue tables for pruning V's references to their situation, build new interactions for prologue characters like Misty, Mama Welles etc. rebuild quest availability triggers from scratch and so on.

It's just not really feasible for a mod project, what's done is done and CBP2077's narrative structure was shipped to revolve around Silverhand being in the mix right after the game takes the training wheels off.

Oh, and CBP's modding scene is a yet progressing car crash of nested dependencies.

 

[Wesp5]

It's not that simple, there are other complications (like Jackie) that you'd need to address. You'd also have to change world states to open up Night City, suppress Johnny's appearences and provide alternative guidance in applicable quests, scour the entire dialogue tables for pruning V's references to their situation, build new interactions for prologue characters like Misty, Mama Welles etc. rebuild quest availability triggers from scratch and so on.

This might be true, but then some modder might still be able to change it. On the other hand I can understand why CDPR did not go this road: It might make more sense for RPG gamers like us, but mainstream GTA or CoD players who bought CP might have been very dissappointed being forced to play hundreds of hours open world before Keanu Reeves even appears in the game!

 

[Gargaune]

This might be true, but then some modder might still be able to change it.

I'd suggest taking a look at the current state of the CBP modding scene before getting your hopes up. Don't get me wrong, it's remarkable how much modders have build on top of what little CDPR gave 'em, but we're not in Bethesdaland anymore.

On the other hand I can understand why CDPR did not go this road: It might make more sense for RPG gamers like us, but mainstream GTA or CoD players who bought CP might have been very dissappointed being forced to play hundreds of hours open world before Keanu Reeves even appears in the game!

Not necessarily, this is why I've referenced BG2 repeatedly, you can set soft target ranges and let the player decide when to press that button. You could've had Chapter 1 ostensibly work as a Street Cred grind but set the minimum level quite low, three or four hours' worth in, and then Jackie would tell V to let him know when to set up the meet with Dex. But CDPR must've figured Reeves coming back and voluntarily asking for a bigger part was too good to pass up, so they decided to put Johnny in everything, including making him a functional part of much of the open world side content. Fair enough, that has some design upsides too, but then they should've at least moved that urgent "the Relic's killing you" realisation to Chapter 3, like gurugeorge said.

 

[Kjaska]

You mean like what ?

Hard limit on the types of interactions possible in the game world. You can only pacify enemies, drive vehicles and "press F to pay respects" on the different objects in the world that have just 1 possible interaction baked in. Any complex cool action you do is part of a set piece or mission (brain dancing, uploading viruses, scuba diving etc.). No faction systems to lay the foundation for MaxTac, Trauma Team or proper Gangs. No 3rd person view support.

Most of criticism i saw was mostly coming from people expecting GTA

Most popular thing right now in GTA is to roleplay.

transforms from action game into something closer to MGS5 and action is not rewarded but stealth and thinking is.

You can do this already. Game even rewards you more credits for missions, if you can do it undetected.

On other hand thanks to structure of game it is way easier to add new content to C77 than to something like TW3. For one you don't need to create new land as there are bajilions of buildings you could make interior for and just connect it to "locked door" you see often in city. GIGs are now received as sms same as resolve of it so you don't need to record any voice for them.

I highly doubt the modders will be able to create anything more than copy-pasta looking interiors and second rate writing for basic gigs. I can see modders adding secluded areas that are only accessible via elevators (low impact on the feel of the world), but I don't see them populating the unused buildings accessible via door on the street (high impact on the feel of the world).

 

[Wesp5]

You could've had Chapter 1 ostensibly work as a Street Cred grind but set the minimum level quite low, three or four hours' worth in, and then Jackie would tell V to let him know when to set up the meet with Dex.

Yes, this would work nicely, but who would not take the first chance to continue on their first playthrough ?

 

[Sarkile]

You could've had Chapter 1 ostensibly work as a Street Cred grind but set the minimum level quite low, three or four hours' worth in, and then Jackie would tell V to let him know when to set up the meet with Dex.

Yes, this would work nicely, but who would not take the first chance to continue on their first playthrough ?

Me, but I'm weird like that.

 

[Mikeal]

 

[Haplo]

Why is he swinging that wire all the time like a retard?

 

[Perkel]

Why is he swinging that wire all the time like a retard?

Because he spiderman ?

Neat modding skills.

 

[Yosharian]

How the fuck would a monofilament wire enable you to become Spiderman? Fucking retarded man

 

[jfrisby]

That's just the old grapple hook mod from Jedi Knight or Quake... the physics don't even look as good, somehow.

 

[gurugeorge]

Monofilament is supposed to cut through almost anything, so he'd be ripping up parts of the freeway there

 

[mediocrepoet]

Monofilament is supposed to cut through almost anything, so he'd be ripping up parts of the freeway there

It also tends to be described as generally frictionless, so he'd cut through the overpass and plummet to his death. I'd enjoy watching that more than this dumb video.

 

[Caim]

Monofilament is supposed to cut through almost anything, so he'd be ripping up parts of the freeway there

It also tends to be described as generally frictionless, so he'd cut through the overpass and plummet to his death. I'd enjoy watching that more than this dumb video.

Sounds like a quest in a Fallout game where you help someone invent something, but if you have a high enough Intelligence stat you can tell them "bro stop it this is gonna get you killed", which won't actually get him to stop and does get himself killed (with you looting some kind wrist-mounted gun that shoots piercing monofilament wires). If you also have high Charisma to actually get him to stop and do something else with the materials you find for him, he'll help you craft hand grenades that detonate in a cloud of monofilament wire that deals armor piercing regular damage instead of explosion damage.

 

[Fedora Master]

Dead game.
Move on.