DJOGamer PT
Arcane
Like I said
Dogmatic aderence to 1.6 mechanics and absolute refusal to experiment
None of those things would significantly improve CS gameplay, so they are unnecessary
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Counter-Strike 2
- Thread starter BosanskiSeljak
- Start date
Dogmatic aderence to 1.6 mechanics and absolute refusal to experiment
CS is a near perfect esport, and 5v5 tac shooter. There are dozens of more arcadey shooters that exist. Doesn't make it a bad thing.
Also, CS:GO is very different to 1.6
Refusal to experiment - the map pool has changed drastically, major changes to OG maps, the utility is much different than previous iterations (especially with the introduction of mollies), major sound updates have happened twice now, etc.
The new weapons showed how difficult it is to introduce a new gun and still keep the competitive integrity of the game. There's a reason CS is still at these heights after so many years, so again, it's not a bad thing.
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DJOGamer PT
Arcane
The way they currently have things, they could remove half of the arsenal and as along the "classics" were kept (AK, M16, AWP, Deagle) no one would give a shit
They've removed items from 1.6 and no one batted an eye - like the shield, which given CS nature it could been a cool item
And focusing a game's design on what works best for esport competitiveness isn't a garantee of good mechanical design
Take the current state of fighting games - alot of them are having the best financial success in the history of their respective IPs because devs have been focusing on esports and indeed tournaments like EVO have grown immensely
However the games themselves have become increasingly less fun and even less mechanically complex to what they were even 10 years ago, because gameplay that makes tournaments more exciting to watch isn't the same as gameplay that feels good to play
They've removed items from 1.6 and no one batted an eye - like the shield, which given CS nature it could been a cool item
And focusing a game's design on what works best for esport competitiveness isn't a garantee of good mechanical design
Take the current state of fighting games - alot of them are having the best financial success in the history of their respective IPs because devs have been focusing on esports and indeed tournaments like EVO have grown immensely
However the games themselves have become increasingly less fun and even less mechanically complex to what they were even 10 years ago, because gameplay that makes tournaments more exciting to watch isn't the same as gameplay that feels good to play
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luj1
You're all shills
And the big dota update after this
Morenatsu.
Liturgist
meanwhile real gamers play quake 2 and its gloariose tickrate of... 10
Scout, MP9, Mac-10, P250, Dual Berettas, CZ/Tec 9/Five-Seven, etc. are all very important guns. Galil to a lesser extent.
Not a great comparison. Fighting games get less fun because no one wants to memorize 800 button combos.
CS - Very simple to grasp the concept (5v5, T vs CT, Plant/Defuse Bomb), Quick Rounds, Great Commentators, High Energy, etc. All of this while still keeping its simplicity, that's why CS is the GOAT esport.
So no, focusing CS design for what works best for the competitive side is not a negative.
Can you give an example of something they could add to the game (mechanics wise) that would make it "more fun" without fucking up what makes CS great?
ferratilis
Magister
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2019
- Messages
- 2,315
It's funny that they improved graphics a lot, while most pros play at 640x480 or 800x600 stretched on widescreen and lowest settings possible. 
DJOGamer PT
Arcane
Oh c'mon man
Most of those weapons are literally just the cheaper variants of the "real weapons" - people only use them to save up some money
Then weapons like the Dual Berettas exist solely for the memes - its like people picking Tachanka in Siege
Actually combocrafting is a big part of the appeal
And the current decline in figthing is due to the fact that tournaments have shifted the design emphasis towards accessibility and spectacle
Besides other game modes - what the fuck happened to "hostage rescue"?
How about truly significant distinction between weapons - different firing modes; scopes with unique capabilities (like thermal vision); maybe a grenade laucher attachment to one of the shittier assault rifles; a blured vision effect for the LMG when its bullets whiz by, that would at least make it not totally useless; speaking of useless, why not have the shotguns interrupt any action for about 1 second after a hit, that would be cool property that somewhat justified their existance...
How about re-adding items like the Shield, Night Vision Goggles and Gas Mask from previous games - you could design whole new maps thanks to these items and even improve existing ones (imagine Assault map at night, but there's a fuse box you destroy kill all light in the warehouse); or even make new game modes (Inflitration - terrorists have to get inside a compund being guarded by the CT's and steal of item or server data and then get to the evac point)
How about proximity voice chat - have the game detect a microphone being used and make it always enabled in competive matches, so that way the players have to be carefull when and how they communicate
The point is: 20 years later, 4 games released (on the way to a 5th) and not fucking once has there been any significant change or inovation
Oh sure, the tech is improved (a bit subjective as the video comparasion in the previous page proves), the netcode is more efficient and some small adjustments are made (a buff here, a nerf there, some item/map is replaced, some item/map is removed)
But nothing truly substantial is ever made - at the end of the day, you're still pretty much playing the original Counter Strike
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And probably spent $8000 dollars on skins.I have 800 hours in CSGO.
Nah, I spent $20 and made a $100 profit which I spent on various skins.And probably spent $8000 dollars on skins.I have 800 hours in CSGO.
Wrong. Playstyle and positioning change drastically with those weapons. And no, Dualies are not a troll pick. Come on man, why are you trying to argue about a game you're obviously not familiar with.
Neither of which are affecting CS.
I skipped over everything else because it's just ranting about things thay should never be added into CS.
That's the point. People WANT counterstrike. Why the fuck would they add those retarded COD ideas into CS? You literally have Valorant with their constant changes/additions of heroes, COD with "innovative changes", R6, etc.
Just because you don't like the best, most competitive, most pure 5v5 tac fps out there, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.
Morenatsu.
Liturgist
Only thing bad about CS is when people start getting autistic about grenade throws
Learning ~5 of the most used smoke lineups isn't going to kill you. Either way, you don't need to do anything to get to the highest rank or even high elo in relatively high elo in Faceit for that matter.
Autistic util usage is only really going to help you when you're pushing for semi-pro.
Morenatsu.
Liturgist
There's nothing wrong with getting the most out of mechanics, but you've kind of lost the real spirit of the game when it turns into too much of lining up specific positions or whatever the hell it is the best of the best do. At that point I guess you could say they've truly defeated the game.
And it's when you get the whole ‘omg the randumb train knocked my grenade off course, unplayable!!!’ shit that you'd wish competitards would stfu and stop ruining shit with their need for games to be 100% consistent and reliable with zero fun gimmicks or idiosyncrasies. Just turn all the graphics off and delete all the obstacles, we're here to play multiplayer spreadsheets, not Counter-Strike! But I really don't get the feeling that any of the older games were designed for that kind of thing at all. They're called counter-terrorists, not counter-autists.
And it's when you get the whole ‘omg the randumb train knocked my grenade off course, unplayable!!!’ shit that you'd wish competitards would stfu and stop ruining shit with their need for games to be 100% consistent and reliable with zero fun gimmicks or idiosyncrasies. Just turn all the graphics off and delete all the obstacles, we're here to play multiplayer spreadsheets, not Counter-Strike! But I really don't get the feeling that any of the older games were designed for that kind of thing at all. They're called counter-terrorists, not counter-autists.
Even full executes only take ~10 seconds maximum for the whole team to lineup. Even then, a big chunk of utility usage is on the fly, adapting. That's a whole skill set, fun, and difficult to master (because you can't memorize that). The most tactical/execute heavy teams might base most of their game off that, but it takes a very short amount of time to set up. The rest of the round still plays the same way as any other.
The crying about the train in Overpass was funny though, I'll give you that.
Also, T's are the ones who spend their time with autist smoke lineups and stuff, much less important on CT side.
Morenatsu.
Liturgist
Well obviously the terrorists are the autists if they're going against counter-autists, duh.
Anyway you're missing the point.
I'm really not though. You made a claim about how getting autistic about grenade throws "loses the spirit of the game" and I outlined how it takes barely any time out of the round (and that's even if I acknowledge your point as correct).
Utility isn't new at all, it's been around for every iteration. The only thing you can argue is mollies, which are a game changer, I'll give you that. But even then, flashbangs are less powerful than in previous iterations.
Utility is a major component of CS, it's not just "shoot shoot bang bang", and even getting autistic with them takes a negligible amount of time. So if you want to claim everyone who's ever been competitive in CS "lost the spirit of the game", that's at least consistent.
Morenatsu.
Liturgist
You say that, and then proceed to miss the point even harder. Where did I ever say grenades shouldn't be in the game? I like the grenades. I like the clever throws you can do with them. But there's a certain point at which a game feels like it's being deconstructed into something not particularly compelling. Which is where you start to get the mindset that cries about trains running over their grenades and scrubbed-down ‘pro’ maps or whatever the hell.
So, I guess I should rephrase. The only thing bad about CS, or any competitive game, is when it becomes defined by what a bunch of stupid ‘pros’ have made the game into, rather than the game making them (its bitch).
So, I guess I should rephrase. The only thing bad about CS, or any competitive game, is when it becomes defined by what a bunch of stupid ‘pros’ have made the game into, rather than the game making them (its bitch).
You keep using one small example, and I already mentioned that a good portion of utility usage is not pre-planned (even in the "stupid pros" play), so nothing is being deconstructed. Even then, removing that train on Overpass/moving it to a spot that doesn't fuck with util usage would not detract from the game/map at all.
I have no idea what you're referring to when you say "scrubbed-down 'pro' maps".
CS is not defined by what the pros make the game into, they just set the competitive meta for the other players who want to make it pro. But if you have a way that's better and beats them consistently, that's when you set the meta.
So I'll wait for real examples of how pros have defined CS in a negative way (or in any way at all). Pros don't have control over weapon changes/additions, map additions/removals (and even then, the Active Duty Pool maps are not the only maps in the game, pro play has no affect on those either), no control/influence over utility, gameply, etc. etc. I can keep going and list everything. Valve doesn;t give a fuck about them, they're not the money maker.
Morenatsu.
Liturgist
shut the fuck up nigger
Degenerate furry faggot doesn't know what it's talking about, thanks for trying though
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