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From Software Dark Souls 3

nomask7

Arcane
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
7,620
I fail in this fame so hard. Problem is, there is no learning curve here. No gradual growth of difficulty so I can gradually learn. There are three types of enemies with nothing in between - no effort 30soul mooks, FUCK YOU knights that fuck me up unless I get lucky or kill the from afar with fireballs, and INVINCIBLE bosses.

Yeah, kind of. But if you're fighting knights, then you've already beaten the first boss. Fireballs? I'd recommend a character build based on heavy shields and melee weapons. That's how I got going as a noob, and I'd say it's still a more interesting, less shallow way to play than dexterity + rolling, let alone magic.

Oh, and try to avoid knights in the beginning.

If all else fails, read boss pages at various wikis on how to defeat them.
 

Matador

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At least you have hyperarmor when swinging the weapon. But I don't know if it's enough.

The changes from DS1 only make sense to achieve balance (avoid backstab cheesing) in multiplayer PVP, it's bad for roleplaying in single player.There is no balance if the heavier armors are worse than lighter ones.

You can explain what you want, but watching a naked man stagger someone wearing the most bulky armor in the game, wit his fists, is retarded. Maybe a good solution could be having some hyperarmor while standing that resets after some time if not being hit enough times.
 

Perkel

Arcane
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Mar 28, 2014
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So i found this answer by some reddit dude on poise status after months of research:

That is a really nice find, well done morninglord! I had some trouble to comprehend the procedure to calculate the poise damage at first though since I am not that well-versed in Souls mechanics. Just in case there are others like me, please allow me to state how I understood your findings (and fell free to correct me if necessary):

Your character has a stat called poise health (PH) which starts at a value of 100. If that value drops to 0 during a fight you will get interrupted and staggered briefly, which is obviously bad. So if you enter a fight and get hit by an enemies attack, this attack does poise damage (PD) to your poise health (PH). This means that after you take a hit your poise health would - in the simplest case - calculate like this:

PH=100-PD

Now if you are wearing any armor the poise stat on that armor leads to an equivalent percentage of poise damage reduction (PDR), e.g. an armor with 30 poise would give you 30% poise damage reduction. So the total poise damage you take would be 100%-30%=70% or (according to the conversion I will use from now on) 1-0.3=0.7. This means that in a more general case your poise health after an enemy attack would amount to:

PH=100-(1-PDR) * PD

Now you say that your character's poise health value will change (usually drop) during a player's attack. The end value of the poise health during this change is calculated by applying a multiplier to the base value of your poise health. The multiplier is based on the weapon the player uses and the attack he is doing with it. This weapon attack modifier (WAM) modifies the player's poise health like this during an attack:

PH=100 * WAM

In case of the 2h r1 of the greatsword you cite a WAM of 21.1% or 0.211 which leads to a drop of the player character's poise health to 21.1 during an attack.

This means that getting hit the first time in a fight and during the player's attack animation will set your poise health to:

PH=100 * WAM-(1-PDR) * PD

If that goes to zero you get staggered briefly.

Now the next phenomenon appears. After a player gets hit for the first time in a fight, him attacking resets his poise health to 80 after the attack, not to 100, except if you are using a weapon art to attack which sets it back to 100. So after you take the first enemy hit the calculation for your poise health during your attack animation (assuming you attacked yourself before taking a second hit) is actually:

PH=80 * WAM-(1-PDR) * PD

This means if you have enough poise to tank through this without staggering and you manage to attack at least once before you get hit a second time to reset you poise health to 80, you should be able to get hit indefinitely without getting interrupted.

The poise damage reduction you would need for this is, according to the formula above:

PH=80 * WAM-(1-PDR) * PD <=> PH/PD=80 * WAM/PD-(1-PDR) <=> PH/PD=80 * WAM/PD-1+PDR <=>

PDR=PH/PD-80 * WAM/PD+1

Taking into consideration that you would want to stay above PH=0 we can simplify this to:

PDR>0/PD-80 * WAM/PD+1 or PDR>1-80 * WAM/PD

Quick test: In your video your weapon and attack used have an WAM of 21.1 and the fireball the player gets hit by does 30 PD, so we get:

PDR>1-80 * 0.211/30=0.4373

Which would explain why you staggered in your video at first when you had 43.72 poise (or PDR=0.4372). Assuming the other values are correct you were 0.01 points of poise away from being safe ;)

I hope this was a correct elaboration on your findings and that this is at least somewhat helpful to people being as overwhelmed by this mechanic as I was at first.

ELI5:
- Poise works and always worked.
- It only works when you attack, it doesn't work if you don't attack (which is opposite to DS1 and DS2). It basically switches on/off poise. Same thing people were using to get "normal" poise since long time ago by enabling poise=1

DS3 basically uses both hyper armor from DeS1 and poise from DS1/2. With caveat that it only works during attack but at the same time you are given hyper armor during some part of swing like in fighting game.

Just watch video it explains everything with cheat engine realtime hooked up to DS.



If you are aggressive and know how to fight technically it works better than DS1 and DS2 (since they don't have hyper armor)
If you don't know what you are doing and play it defensively then it penalizes you more than in DS1 and DS2.


So in other words to play as bulky two handed hammer dude in DS3 you not only need to wear armor but also need to understand how to properly attack without running away like a bitch. Unless you do that you might as well drop armor and run only with huge club.

On other hand people in no or light armor can use hyper armor to their advantage (provided weapon does give you ha in first place). What is clear is that if you do not attack or play agressively you will be stunned a lot.


edit: redacted
 
Last edited:

baturinsky

Arcane
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Apr 21, 2013
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Russia
I play with Pyromancer now, but mostly knight-style, with Silver Eagle Kite Shield, armor (mostly Lothric) and +2 raw uchigatana. Any suggestion for good early game weapon?
Btw, looks like fireballs work well as openers against Knights - first fireball stagger them, so I can squeeze several slashes afterwards. Problem is, how to survive what happens next without shield in left hand...
 

Hyperion

Arcane
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Messages
2,120
Problem is, how to survive what happens next without shield in left hand...

NEVER fully deplete stamina (or go into "negative stamina" as some people say) to attack unless you're 100% sure you can pull it off without fear of reprisal.

As for weapons, the Uchigatana is actually not that bad early on if you build Dex, but the Raw enchant nullifies that. Arstor's Spear is another pretty good Dex-based weapon that has the added bonus of potentially poisoning enemies.

For pure Physical, the Brigand Axe is a great weapon if you don't mind the mediocre range. The thing hits like a truck for a relatively quick weapon that doesn't use too much stamina. The Deep Battleaxe that drops from the Mimic inside the tower guarded by the Dragon in the High Wall of Lothric is decent, even if split damage sucks again. If you level your strength a lot early on, the Butcher Knife is a good weapon that gets an S scaling at +10, and is gotten at the same spot as the Brigand Axe. As always, the Claymore is a solid weapon and gotten REALLY early - on the back part of the platform where the Dragon breathes fire. The Irithyll Straight Sword deserves a mention, but the fact it uses Twinkling Titanite to level drags it pretty far down the list for me.

If you really want to focus on your Int stat, the Crystal Sage Rapier is a pretty good choice, too. It's a boss soul weapon that should be pretty tough to miss.

I know it was nerfed, but the Dark Sword is still a good weapon. Didn't want to mention it because of its notoriety. It's a random drop from Darkwraiths, so farm them if you want it.
 

cvv

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The Irithyll Straight Sword deserves a mention, but the fact it uses Twinkling Titanite to level drags it pretty far down the list for me.

The real problem is its only bragging feature is the Frost effect which is completely useless. Another system in DS3 From has obviously put a tremendous amount of thought and care into. Twinkling is not a problem, you hardly ever use them since ALL of the weapons that need them for upgrades suck balls because see, From wanted them to suck. It's one of their ingeniously mysterious design decisions we all adore so much.
 

baturinsky

Arcane
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Apr 21, 2013
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Defeated the second boss. It was easy - took only three tries. But only AFTER I have watched the guide. Otherwise I would never guessed that I have to be literally under (and partially inside) him to avoid his attacks.
 

sullynathan

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baturinsky you must be really shit to have had a problem or even die against vordt. Its going to be an uphill battle for you without a guide. You forgot on thing, go back into the church and kill the old woman that gave you a banner. There's a secret late game item that you get that will really help you.
 

baturinsky

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sullynathan

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FUCK. I killed the "give me death" guy in the Undead Settlement. So, now I'm missing a NPC?
who? go back into the church and kill the old woman that gave you a banner. There's a secret late game item that you get that will really help you.
This guy http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Yoel+of+Londor
And wouldn't that woman die by herself a little bit later anyway with same result?
shouldn't have killed that guy, he gives free levels.
You get something special for killing her early.
 

nomask7

Arcane
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
7,620
This guy http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Yoel+of+Londor
And wouldn't that woman die by herself a little bit later anyway with same result?

Did he sell magic you would have needed? If not, not a big deal.

Souls games are pretty hard if you don't read walkthroughs - I always get stuck at least a couple times, lose my patience and have to google for a solution or strategy. Dark Souls III is the hardest of all due to all the difficult end game boss battles. Many of those hinge on you having some optional NPC to assist you in the battle. These are the most important NPCs if you want to get through the game in a reasonable manner.
 

Rolk's Drifter

Scholar
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
125
FUCK. I killed the "give me death" guy in the Undead Settlement. So, now I'm missing a NPC?

He dies anyway so don't worry. The free levels are just free souls and since you get them early, they'll probably never amount to more than 20k souls. That's nothing.

As for Vordt. Yeah DS is like that. It can seem really hard but that's 80% of time only because you haven't figured how to cheese the boss/situation. It's shameful how many bosses can be broken just by standing in a certain spot. But... when it's good it's pretty awesome.

My favourite early weapon is the Great Axe. It's also one of the first things you can get. Just farm the guy by the first bonfire at the High Wall. He guards the shorcut lift to Vordt. It takes 32 strength but only 22 if you two hand it. That's only 6 levels for the warrior class.

Imo, it's worth starting a new char and giving it a try. I've found strength weapons to be most fun. Especially with the charged R2 which as well as being powerful can knock enemies down. That can trivialise even tough enemies. Especially true for greatswords with charged thrusts. Range + power = heaven! Later on you can get the Demon's Greataxe which is basically the same as GA but longer, has innate fire damage and scales with pyro stats. So you could always add pyromancy later if it's a big deal. You'd have a better selection of spells by then.

Still, the katana is a good weapon if you play to it's strengths. I.e. the running attack. But you need to be light and nimble, so it's probably not a good starting weapon for a beginner.

Lothric Knights... haha yeah, they can be pretty tough. The good thing is now you've beaten Vordt, you've unlocked a nice little practise area. Once you've levelled up a bit, got some better equipment etc, I recommend going back there and practise fighting them again. Like many mid-tier enemies, they are often weak to either parries or back stabs. For me the sword and shield knights are weak to parries (especially set up parries), while the spear dudes are weak to back stabs.


Actually I would. If Gothic and/or Gothic 2 had hack and slash combat inspired by ninja gaiden or even combat as good as Dark Souls, then it would pretty much be nearly perfect but it doesn't.

On the topic of Ninja Gaiden, of course it would have all that wall jumping and shit. Its about a super powered ninja. If Gothic's combat needed as much skill as Ninja Gaiden's, then it would be a lot better. I don't know why that part is hard to understand.

Also, what arpg standards are you talking about? If you're thinking what I'm thinking, then this pretty much excuses any flaws about Gothics combat.

God damn it. Yeah, there was a typo. "Would you still like NG if it had NG combat" is obviously retarded. I only meant Gothic.

The part I don't understand is how you can think super fast somersaulting could fit into Gothics setting. It's just absurd in my eyes.

The arpg standards I'm talking about boil down to: it's still an RPG, not an action/twitch/skill game. An arpg has to limit player skill or else it renders the rpg aspects entirely moot.
 

nomask7

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Apr 30, 2008
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As for Vordt. Yeah DS is like that. It can seem really hard but that's 80% of time only because you haven't figured how to cheese the boss/situation. It's shameful how many bosses can be broken just by standing in a certain spot. But... when it's good it's pretty awesome.

Not sure I'd use the word broken. You still have to move around and manage stamina, i.e. play the game. You're probably just meant to figure out bosses on your own, the way you figure out strategies and weaknesses in many other RPGs. It becomes cheesy if you just read up on them online right away or have acquired so much experience you only need one try to beat a certain boss. And of course like you said it's not always the case; it's sort of reasonable that early bosses can be beaten more easily. Try to pull off a strategy like that against the Dancer and see what happens. :lol:
 

sullynathan

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The arpg standards I'm talking about boil down to: it's still an RPG, not an action/twitch/skill game. An arpg has to limit player skill or else it renders the rpg aspects entirely moot.
I don't even mind this to be honest. Even the souls games depend on player skill more than stats. It's why you have SL1 playthroughs. Pretty much Gothic's combat would have been better if it had more combat mechanics that took player skill in mind. Gothic 3 was on the right track.
The super jumps and all that stuff doesn't have to be in Gothic, the reliance on player skill is what I would have liked.
 

Haplo

Prophet
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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Twinkling is not a problem, you hardly ever use them since ALL of the weapons that need them for upgrades suck balls because see, From wanted them to suck. It's one of their ingeniously mysterious design decisions we all adore so much.

Not ALL of the Twinkling upgrade weapons suck. Notably Black Knight arms rock. Some nice shields also use TT.
 

Perkel

Arcane
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Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,957
7.40 is now breakpoint for proper anti light weapon stagger poise with greatsword.


As long as you use greatsword and you have 7.40 poise you can't be staggered mid attack by any of "light" weapons.
 

Perkel

Arcane
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Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,957
Steam says that in aprox 3-4 hours DLC will be available to play.
 

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