Diablo IV

[Kane]

I have yet to see a "meaningful endgame" in any diablolike hack & slash action computer role playing game

The map device system in Path of Exile

How and why is PoEs mapping 'meaningful endgame'? It is just another fantastic grind.

 

[ADL]

I'm no PoE1 dick sucker by any means but Path of Exile's endgame is brilliant game design. There's a reason poe has the retention it does. You can focus on any number of endgame activities. Harvest, blight, delve, delirium, bestiary, legion, sanctum, settlement of kalguur etc. and it's all economically rewarding.

 

[Just Locus]

D1 > D2

Diablo I is a good game, but Diablo II takes the cake for being a massive improvement in every direction.

Nonsensical garbage. D1/2 are simply outdated at this point.

Disagree. Diablo I can still be played today with next to no effort, I finished the game and I didn't install any resolution or QoL mods. I did the same for Diablo II but most of the "outdated" aspects of that game come down to the FPS-lock and limited resolution options, They've stood the test of time and are great ARPGs.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

How many mods for D1/HF?
How many mods for D2/LOD?
How many mods for D3/ROS?
How many mods for D4/VOH?
How many mods for Diablo Immortal?
How many phones are playing DI?
How many Diablos does it take to rape your life time away?

 

[ArchAngel]

I'm no PoE1 dick sucker by any means but Path of Exile's endgame is brilliant game design. There's a reason poe has the retention it does. You can focus on any number of endgame activities. Harvest, blight, delve, delirium, bestiary, legion, sanctum, settlement of kalguur etc. and it's all economically rewarding.

And it is all same pointless boring content.
I didn't need endgame in D1 and D2.

I've tried focusing on blight this league, got bored of it after doing 3 blight maps. Same every league on whatever I focused on (heist, delve, whatever)

 

[Peachcurl]

I agree that late game isn't "needed" for the genre. But that's unfortunately PoE's business model. If you don't ask money up front, you have to keep people invested for a longer time.

This isn't even a problem by itself, it's perfectly fine to stop once bored with the game. The problem is that the design of the "early" game is going to be affected by this.

 

[Ryzer]

The problem is that the early game is boring as fuck in 99% of hack and slash games.

 

[ArchAngel]

The problem is that the early game is boring as fuck in 99% of hack and slash games.

I enjoyed D1, Grim Dawn and D2 (on players X) single players campaign.
Even D4 had fairly OK campaign part compared to its boring endgame (more boring than PoE).

Shit games like Last Epoch on the other hand went full retard and made worst campaign yet and still boring endgame.

 

[Peachcurl]

The problem is that the early game is boring as fuck in 99% of hack and slash games.

Yeah. Because it's just seen as a means to an end. A more or less protracted tutorial.

 

[luj1]

The problem is that the early game is boring as fuck in 99% of hack and slash games.

D2 campaign is actually great. Especially if you play Hardcore and need to take it slower, walk instead of run, etc. You suddenly began noticing a bunch of stuff, intricate details in the story and environments, etc.

 

[Desiderius]

No, I only bought this recently. I don't buy on launch day and wait for a sale.

In that case, you don't know how bad it was previously. You'd get tons of boring items with shitty modifiers that completely killed the joy of finding new items. In a game based around... finding loot. Reading tooltips with a bunch of shitty flat bonuses makes you want to stop playing.

As for progression, it's the same problem that D3 had, artificial sense of progression through stat bloat, where you would see crazy numbers in endgame that didn't feel meaningful while playing.

When you're playing D2, you're constantly finding stuff that is useful and interesting, which keeps you want to play more, D4 gets boring very fast, even in its current state.

Agree, D4 is boring af, even more so than D3 which is a weird and difficult achievement.

D3 was fun until I found the public auction house.

Strangely have never played any Diablo since

 

[luj1]

And it is all same pointless boring content.
I didn't need endgame in D1 and D2.

Perhaps you didn't need it, but D2 had endgame (Uber bosses)

It's optional content though. If you don't *need* endgame then just don't play it.

Though I think the problem with PoE is that that endgame *is* the game. Whereas with Diablo 2 it was the opposite (campaign was much more interesting than endgame).

However if endgame is what you want, PoE is the best.

 

[ferratilis]

However if endgame is what you want, PoE is the best.

Project Diablo 2 is also there, it adds a robust endgame system to D2.

 

[Kane]

Path of Exile is a mediocre game overall that saw success because of lack of competition. Technically it is absurdly bad, even worse than Diablo II*, which at least has the excuse that it is old. PoE is largely carried by its replayability through the skill system but fighting the absurd controls and terrible engine makes this a steady uphill battle, even for the developers.

It is then not surprising that PoE2 is developed largely for GGG itself, not for you the player, so they can continue to actually develop the game. Anyone who thinks PoE2 will solve the fundamental problems of PoE will be sorely disappointed. GGG is not a very competent company and it never was.

I still don't see any argument as to why PoE mapping is 'the best' or 'brilliant game design'. It is an interesting idea, sure but not something I would certify as 'good'.

In any case, this is the Diablo thread, so it is important to remind you that we're here to discuss not PoE but why Diablo IV is the best Diablo and Diablo II is just bad.

*Actually a testament to Old-Blizzards skill to dredge something like Diablo II out of that garbage heap.

 

[luj1]

Anyone who thinks PoE2 will solve the fundamental problems of PoE will be sorely disappointed

Well they already solved two big problems, by adding gold and removing skills from gems and sockets from gear

 

[ArchAngel]

Well the fundamental problem of PoE is minute to minute gameplay where monsters "one shot" almost all characters and loot that drops is useless except for selling so you can craft or buy useful loot, you know the two staples of Diablo like games.. both result in needing to zoom zoom, kill monsters faster than they can attack you and clear maps in 2 minutes so you can earn money to buy stuff in days instead of weeks of playtime.
D2 had neither of those problems.

PoE2 will try to address both, hopefully they are able to fix one (gameplay) and somewhat fix 2nd one (loot).

 

[Kane]

D2 had neither of those problems.

What?

Sir, did you ever actually play D2?

 

[Daedalos]

For all thats said and done, nothing still comes close to beating D4 in terms of actual combat FEEL, fluidity of combat, sound design, animation, graphics and so on, general presentation.
And that matters a fucking lot to me.

I am waiting to see if PoE 2 can actually bring next-gen design in terms of the above mentioned things. If not, eh, I might stay with D4, still, even if its mechanically worse and less/worse content.

 

[Reinhardt]

GOTHIC HORROR!

 

[Nathir]

For all thats said and done, nothing still comes close to beating D4 in terms of actual combat FEEL, fluidity of combat, sound design, animation, graphics and so on, general presentation.
And that matters a fucking lot to me.

I am waiting to see if PoE 2 can actually bring next-gen design in terms of the above mentioned things. If not, eh, I might stay with D4, still, even if its mechanically worse and less/worse content.

Both D2 and D1 are way ahead of D4 in the above mentioned departments.

 

[Daedalos]

For all thats said and done, nothing still comes close to beating D4 in terms of actual combat FEEL, fluidity of combat, sound design, animation, graphics and so on, general presentation.
And that matters a fucking lot to me.

I am waiting to see if PoE 2 can actually bring next-gen design in terms of the above mentioned things. If not, eh, I might stay with D4, still, even if its mechanically worse and less/worse content.

Both D2 and D1 are way ahead of D4 in the above mentioned departments.

I mean debateable, but yea, I guess I could agree with D2 and D2rR. beautiful artstyle for sure. D4 comes close tho, but yea, definitely more modern. D4 to me feels alot like playing a modern day version of D2 in terms of just the presentation tbh.

A critical component, that Diablo 3 totally missed. Diablo 3 felt nothing like D2, which fans were very upset about, me included. shit artstyle etc.

 

[ArchAngel]

D2 had neither of those problems.

What?

Sir, did you ever actually play D2?

Yes and finished it on hell difficulty with multiple characters in single player with no trading or farming needed. It felt finished once you beat Bhaal on hell and you could start over to play another character.
Something that has been missing since shit diablo likes decided to make shit campaigns so they would force you to play shit endgames.

 

[Lyric Suite]

For all thats said and done, nothing still comes close to beating D4 in terms of actual combat FEEL, fluidity of combat, sound design, animation, graphics and so on, general presentation.
And that matters a fucking lot to me.

I am waiting to see if PoE 2 can actually bring next-gen design in terms of the above mentioned things. If not, eh, I might stay with D4, still, even if its mechanically worse and less/worse content.

Both D2 and D1 are way ahead of D4 in the above mentioned departments.

I mean debateable, but yea, I guess I could agree with D2 and D2rR. beautiful artstyle for sure. D4 comes close tho, but yea, definitely more modern. D4 to me feels alot like playing a modern day version of D2 in terms of just the presentation tbh.

A critical component, that Diablo 3 totally missed. Diablo 3 felt nothing like D2, which fans were very upset about, me included. shit artstyle etc.

While an improvement over Diablo 3, what i've seen of Diablo 4 doesn't actually come "close" to D2 at all.

 

[Just Locus]

[...] A critical component, that Diablo 3 totally missed. Diablo 3 felt nothing like D2, which fans were very upset about, me included. shit artstyle etc.

Diablo 3 felt more like a template to Diablo 4 than a sequel to 2.

[...] even worse than Diablo II*, which at least has the excuse that it is old. [...]

Sir, did you ever actually play D2?

I've still yet to hear why you think D2 is inferior to Diablo 4 excluding the fact that it's "Old" which is true in a technical sense, in that yes the limited resolution options are annoying and the FPS-lock makes the game feel way more clunkier than if you played on 60 FPS with PlugY. But if the bulk of the problems with a game come down to technical issues that can be attributed to the limitations of the time? That must be a pretty damn good game. I don't know why you feel the urge to constantly bring down PoE and Diablo II to prop up Diablo IV as something greater.

 

[Cohesion]

The problem is that the early game is boring as fuck in 99% of hack and slash games.

D2 campaign is actually great. Especially if you play Hardcore and need to take it slower, walk instead of run, etc. You suddenly began noticing a bunch of stuff, intricate details in the story and environments, etc.

Yeah, hardcore is the only proper (not boring) way to play Diablo clones. Diablo itself was inspired by roguelikes:

The origin of the first Diablo came from David Brevik while at Condor Games around 1994. Brevik was heavily inspired by the roguelike genre with turn-based combat, but with simplified role-playing game elements and a more expansive loot system.