Diablo IV

[mediocrepoet]

No, I only bought this recently. I don't buy on launch day and wait for a sale.

In that case, you don't know how bad it was previously. You'd get tons of boring items with shitty modifiers that completely killed the joy of finding new items. In a game based around... finding loot. Reading tooltips with a bunch of shitty flat bonuses makes you want to stop playing.

As for progression, it's the same problem that D3 had, artificial sense of progression through stat bloat, where you would see crazy numbers in endgame that didn't feel meaningful while playing.

When you're playing D2, you're constantly finding stuff that is useful and interesting, which keeps you want to play more, D4 gets boring very fast, even in its current state.

Agree, D4 is boring af, even more so than D3 which is a weird and difficult achievement.

 

[Kane]

In that case, you don't know how bad it was previously.

Probably. Do I care? Not really.

As for progression, it's the same problem that D3 had, artificial sense of progression through stat bloat, where you would see crazy numbers in endgame that didn't feel meaningful while playing.

How exactly is this different to any other game in the series or any other diablolike for that matter? That is a general 'weakness' of this entire genre, if you want to see it like one. But many people myself included play these games precisely because they want to become the ubergod demon slayer.
I have yet to see a "meaningful endgame" in any diablolike hack & slash action computer role playing game, whatever that even means.

When you're playing D2, you're constantly finding stuff that is useful and interesting, which keeps you want to play more, D4 gets boring very fast, even in its current state.

I disagree. I find that Diablo IV is much better wrt 'finding interesting stuff' simply because you can do a lot of different things other than Mefi/Baal runs. Don't get me wrong, they have a special place in my heart. But I cannot bring myself to do them anymore. Reminder that Diablo II did not even have anything that would resemble 'endgame content' today.

 

[ferratilis]

If you don't see a difference in how progression works in D2 (pure arpg) and D4 (MMO-like arpg), there's no point arguing. Yes, D2 didn't have endgame in modern terms, but everything up to that point felt great. In D4, you do campaign once, then on subsequent playthroughs look for ways to speedrun the leveling process and reach the highly coveted endgame, which puts activities ahead of itemization. Even with the current "loot reborn" finding something interesting feels like tedium.

And even with the so-called variety of endgame activities in D4, you're still railroaded into doing the most optimal ones that yield the best items. In D2, you make your own endgame, there is a moment where you can say "I'm done with this character and want to start a new one." It's a concept modern arpgs are afraid of because they want to make you chasing that carrot forever, as bloated as it is. Some people might like it, but I certainly don't.

 

[Kane]

If you don't see a difference in how progression works in D2 (pure arpg) and D4 (MMO-like arpg), there's no point arguing.

No, I don't see any. You slaughter foes at high speed and earn XP and loot. That's it. I don't even see what kind of relevant intricacies I could be missing here, sorry.

Yes, D2 didn't have endgame in modern terms, but everything up to that point felt great.

D4 feels even better than D2, at any stage of the game, because it is technically far superior than D2, as in it clearly profits from a quarter century of experience. Even D3 forgettable as it was feels better than D2.

In D4, you do campaign once, then on subsequent playthroughs look for ways to speedrun the leveling process

Wrong. In D4 you press the button 'skip campaign' to not having to endure the campaign again. Which is only possible b/c D4 is "open world", which is a good addition to the series. I still remember wishing for an open world (and a 'skip campaign' button) in D2.

the highly coveted endgame, which puts activities ahead of itemization

And I presume it shouldn't? What would 'putting itemization ahead of activities' look like and why would it be better?

Even with the current "loot reborn" finding something interesting feels like tedium.

I run a dungeon or two, knock over some loot goblins and I have to the vendor because I am full and have to sift through the mountain of loot. What exactly here is 'tedium' beyond of what is part-and-parcel of the genre?

And even with the so-called variety of endgame activities in D4, you're still railroaded

You're not railroaded if you have got a choice. In D2 you have got no choice because there simply isn't anything to do.

into doing the most optimal ones that yield the best items.

And that one choice is better than another at a given point in time is an unavoidable consequence of living in a universe with entropy. What is Blizzard supposed to do about that? Play the game for you? Simply don't do the most optimal one if you don't like it and do another.

In D2, you make your own endgame, there is a moment where you can say "I'm done with this character and want to start a new one."

What prevents you from doing the same in D4?

they want to make you chasing that carrot forever, as bloated as it is

No, you (collectively) want a carrot to chase, Blizzard just delivers that. Chasing the carrot goblin is the point of the game. How can Blizzard even win here? Not put any content into the game whatsoever besides the campaign, aka D2? Many people will complain, including you, for lack of endgame content.

 

[luj1]

My final rating: Diablo IV is best Diablo.

lol this nigga

Gameplay is a fluid banger, 60 FPS everywhere regardless of monster count on the screen. Take note LE and PoE: This is how games are supposed to be delivered. 60. FPS. Always. Blizzard putting the standard where it belongs again.

could be, blizzard was really known for polish back in the day. I never had any of their games crash

 

[luj1]

it's the same problem that D3 had, artificial sense of progression through stat bloat, where you would see crazy numbers in endgame that didn't feel meaningful while playing.

How exactly is this different to any other game in the series or any other diablolike for that matter? That is a general 'weakness' of this entire genre

There is a big difference between doing 7k or 15k damage in D2 than doing millions of damage in D3. Quite big stat inflation. So it wasn't the problem of the genre. Other Diablo clones of the time like Titan Quest, Sacred, Harbinger, Prince of Qin had OK numbers too.

 

[Kane]

My final rating: Diablo IV is best Diablo.

lol this nigga

Complain all you want, the truth will set you free.

Gameplay is a fluid banger, 60 FPS everywhere regardless of monster count on the screen. Take note LE and PoE: This is how games are supposed to be delivered. 60. FPS. Always. Blizzard putting the standard where it belongs again.

could be, blizzard was really known for polish back in the day. I never had any of their games crash

It is a miracle in this day and age of "Matt 'we're targeting 30 FPS' Hanssen" paying for a full price game and being handed something fulfilling the minimum requirements on a technical level.

it's the same problem that D3 had, artificial sense of progression through stat bloat, where you would see crazy numbers in endgame that didn't feel meaningful while playing.

How exactly is this different to any other game in the series or any other diablolike for that matter? That is a general 'weakness' of this entire genre

There is a big difference between doing 7k or 15k damage in D2 than doing millions of damage in D3. Quite big stat inflation. So it wasn't the problem of the genre.

Possible. I do not remember my playtime with D3 at all for some reason. But I don't even see stat inflation as a big problem in ARPGs tbh. I always toggle off damage numbers because I find them annoying so I only broadly know the amount of damage I do from gauging the red line going down. I read somewhere that Blizzard wants to 'squish the numbers' in D4 so I suppose that "problem" continues to exist?

Other Diablo clones of the time like Titan Quest, Sacred, Harbinger, Prince of Qin had OK numbers too.

Nitpick: TQ is way before D3. You are probably meant to say Grim Dawn from the same guys. Never got into TQ or GD, I just cannot build motivation to play these games.

 

[Cohesion]

D4 feels even better than D2, at any stage of the game, because it is technically far superior than D2, as in it clearly profits from a quarter century of experience. Even D3 forgettable as it was feels better than D2.

Feeling fucking old. 1/4 of a century. Wtf? Time flies.
Also, you are wrong. D1 > D2 >>>> D3 ~ D4.

 

[luj1]

I have yet to see a "meaningful endgame" in any diablolike hack & slash action computer role playing game

The map device system in Path of Exile. The game practically beings in endgame.

 

[Kane]

D4 feels even better than D2, at any stage of the game, because it is technically far superior than D2, as in it clearly profits from a quarter century of experience. Even D3 forgettable as it was feels better than D2.

Feeling fucking old. 1/4 of a century. Wtf? Time flies.
Also, you are wrong. D1 > D2 >>>> D3 ~ D4.

Nonsensical garbage. D1/2 are simply outdated at this point. I would say that every iteration in the diablo series is clearly superior to its respective predecessor, D3 having an unfortunate spot to fight as contestant in the 'always-on or not' wars and having a "Star Wars Era" style epic cringe story.

 

[luj1]

Other Diablo clones of the time like Titan Quest, Sacred, Harbinger, Prince of Qin had OK numbers too.

Nitpick: TQ is way before D3. You are probably meant to say Grim Dawn from the same guys.

No, I mean clones of Diablo and Diablo II, in that time

 

[Kane]

I have yet to see a "meaningful endgame" in any diablolike hack & slash action computer role playing game

The map device system in Path of Exile

How and why is PoEs mapping 'meaningful endgame'? It is just another fantastic grind.

 

[ADL]

I'm no PoE1 dick sucker by any means but Path of Exile's endgame is brilliant game design. There's a reason poe has the retention it does. You can focus on any number of endgame activities. Harvest, blight, delve, delirium, bestiary, legion, sanctum, settlement of kalguur etc. and it's all economically rewarding.

 

[Just Locus]

D1 > D2

Diablo I is a good game, but Diablo II takes the cake for being a massive improvement in every direction.

Nonsensical garbage. D1/2 are simply outdated at this point.

Disagree. Diablo I can still be played today with next to no effort, I finished the game and I didn't install any resolution or QoL mods. I did the same for Diablo II but most of the "outdated" aspects of that game come down to the FPS-lock and limited resolution options, They've stood the test of time and are great ARPGs.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

How many mods for D1/HF?
How many mods for D2/LOD?
How many mods for D3/ROS?
How many mods for D4/VOH?
How many mods for Diablo Immortal?
How many phones are playing DI?
How many Diablos does it take to rape your life time away?

 

[ArchAngel]

I'm no PoE1 dick sucker by any means but Path of Exile's endgame is brilliant game design. There's a reason poe has the retention it does. You can focus on any number of endgame activities. Harvest, blight, delve, delirium, bestiary, legion, sanctum, settlement of kalguur etc. and it's all economically rewarding.

And it is all same pointless boring content.
I didn't need endgame in D1 and D2.

I've tried focusing on blight this league, got bored of it after doing 3 blight maps. Same every league on whatever I focused on (heist, delve, whatever)

 

[Peachcurl]

I agree that late game isn't "needed" for the genre. But that's unfortunately PoE's business model. If you don't ask money up front, you have to keep people invested for a longer time.

This isn't even a problem by itself, it's perfectly fine to stop once bored with the game. The problem is that the design of the "early" game is going to be affected by this.

 

[Ryzer]

The problem is that the early game is boring as fuck in 99% of hack and slash games.

 

[ArchAngel]

The problem is that the early game is boring as fuck in 99% of hack and slash games.

I enjoyed D1, Grim Dawn and D2 (on players X) single players campaign.
Even D4 had fairly OK campaign part compared to its boring endgame (more boring than PoE).

Shit games like Last Epoch on the other hand went full retard and made worst campaign yet and still boring endgame.

 

[Peachcurl]

The problem is that the early game is boring as fuck in 99% of hack and slash games.

Yeah. Because it's just seen as a means to an end. A more or less protracted tutorial.

 

[luj1]

The problem is that the early game is boring as fuck in 99% of hack and slash games.

D2 campaign is actually great. Especially if you play Hardcore and need to take it slower, walk instead of run, etc. You suddenly began noticing a bunch of stuff, intricate details in the story and environments, etc.

 

[Desiderius]

No, I only bought this recently. I don't buy on launch day and wait for a sale.

In that case, you don't know how bad it was previously. You'd get tons of boring items with shitty modifiers that completely killed the joy of finding new items. In a game based around... finding loot. Reading tooltips with a bunch of shitty flat bonuses makes you want to stop playing.

As for progression, it's the same problem that D3 had, artificial sense of progression through stat bloat, where you would see crazy numbers in endgame that didn't feel meaningful while playing.

When you're playing D2, you're constantly finding stuff that is useful and interesting, which keeps you want to play more, D4 gets boring very fast, even in its current state.

Agree, D4 is boring af, even more so than D3 which is a weird and difficult achievement.

D3 was fun until I found the public auction house.

Strangely have never played any Diablo since

 

[luj1]

And it is all same pointless boring content.
I didn't need endgame in D1 and D2.

Perhaps you didn't need it, but D2 had endgame (Uber bosses)

It's optional content though. If you don't *need* endgame then just don't play it.

Though I think the problem with PoE is that that endgame *is* the game. Whereas with Diablo 2 it was the opposite (campaign was much more interesting than endgame).

However if endgame is what you want, PoE is the best.

 

[ferratilis]

However if endgame is what you want, PoE is the best.

Project Diablo 2 is also there, it adds a robust endgame system to D2.

 

[Kane]

Path of Exile is a mediocre game overall that saw success because of lack of competition. Technically it is absurdly bad, even worse than Diablo II*, which at least has the excuse that it is old. PoE is largely carried by its replayability through the skill system but fighting the absurd controls and terrible engine makes this a steady uphill battle, even for the developers.

It is then not surprising that PoE2 is developed largely for GGG itself, not for you the player, so they can continue to actually develop the game. Anyone who thinks PoE2 will solve the fundamental problems of PoE will be sorely disappointed. GGG is not a very competent company and it never was.

I still don't see any argument as to why PoE mapping is 'the best' or 'brilliant game design'. It is an interesting idea, sure but not something I would certify as 'good'.

In any case, this is the Diablo thread, so it is important to remind you that we're here to discuss not PoE but why Diablo IV is the best Diablo and Diablo II is just bad.

*Actually a testament to Old-Blizzards skill to dredge something like Diablo II out of that garbage heap.