Divinity Divinity: Original Sin - Enhanced Edition

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

I can accept 1985 if you can accept 1995. A lot of good came in 1994 and 1995. Besides, a decade is a nice.

It was a bad time for the genre. I can remember only a few good cRPGs from this period: Arena, RoA 2, Albion...
and System Shock, which, while awesome, isn't a real cRPG.

Ultima VII was a harbinger of decline, if you ask me. It was a very good game (as a matter of fact, Serpet Isle is one of my all-time favorites), but it spoiled the essence of cRPG by making accent on IMMERSION, larping, hiking, etc.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

I can accept 1985 if you can accept 1995. A lot of good came in 1994 and 1995. Besides, a decade is a nice.

It was a bad time for the genre. I can remember only a few good cRPGs from this period: Arena, RoA 2, Albion...
and System Shock, which, while awesome, isn't a real cRPG.

Ultima VII was a harbinger of decline, if you ask me. It was a very good game (as a matter of fact, Serpet Isle is one of my all-time favorites), but it spoiled the essence of cRPG by making accent on IMMERSION, larping, hiking, etc.

Re Ultima7: Don't fault U7 for the sins of those that failed to emulate it. "Genre got flooded with games seeking to emulate the simulation and sandbox aspects, and delivered shit in the process therefore U7 should be looked on with contempt".

Actually I think Ssytem shock was in '93.

So I checked a list and on PC we had 1994/1995: Arena, Jagged Alliance / Deadly Games, World of Xeen / Swords of Xeen, Arkania 2, Albion, Entomorph

Also lots of compilations and gold editions etc. I thought I remembered the period being better than this. I think my views on these two years are influenced by the influx of solid JRPGs such as the early FF, Chrono Trigger, Saiken Detsu, Immortal and others. There was a lot worth playing on the NES so perhaps my view is biased in that sense.

 

[Crospy]

U7 isn't something that should be emulated at all. It's pure larp with almost no gameplay to speak of. People criticize Oblivion for much lesser sins than abominations like U7 in its combat and character progression.

 

[Sceptic]

Joined: Aug 9, 2014
Messages: 1

 

[groke]

Joined: Aug 9, 2014
Messages: 1

Crospy.

 

[Jools]

Joined: Aug 9, 2014
Messages: 1

Username: Crospy

Either a spy from Croatia, or someone's alt.

EDit - brofisting groke for beating me to it by a jiffy.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

Re Ultima7: Don't fault U7 for the sins of those that failed to emulate it.

Agree. Therefore it's not a pioneer of decline but a harbinger.

World of Xeen

Actually, it's 1993. 'cause, in fact, Clouds and Darkside installed on same PC automatically merge into it.

 

[Waterd]

That picture tells me nothing about what game design elements wizardry V has that it was good.

 

[Nikaido]

Final diagnosis: terminal retardation. The pic shows you a dungeon map. If you can't tell the difference in good design between a Wizardry (or even non-RPG classic games like Doom) level and abominations like these :

You are beyond saving.

 

[V_K]

Final diagnosis: terminal retardation. The pic shows you a dungeon map. If you can't tell the difference in good design between a Wizardry (or even non-RPG classic games like Doom) level and abominations like these :
...
You are beyond saving.

By that logic this should be the best gmae eva:

So should we include 1996 in the incline era too?

(For the record, I agree that Wiz5 is a good game and DA2 is shit, but this has nothing to do with labyrinthine maps)

 

[Nikaido]

While daggerfall's randomly generated dungeons aren't as great as handmade ones, they certainly were much better than the sorry excuses found in later TES games, and THAT ALSO includes Morrowind.

You just said.. good area design had nothing to do with what made Wiz5 a good game? Are you serious? decent level design is what was forgotten in every single genre of games (and not just RPGs) in the past decades.

First person shooters used to look like this :

While nowadays everything is a fucking linear corridor with barely anything to explore.

Would I play a Wizardry 5 clone where all maps are linear corridors? You can't be serious.

 

[V_K]

You just said.. good area design had nothing to do with what made Wiz5 a good game? Are you serious? decent level design is what was forgotten in every single genre of games (and not just RPGs) in the past decades.

Nope. I said that labyrinthine maps do not equal good level design. Good level design has to do with having varied and interesting encounters and pacing them in a sensible way. Wiz games generally succeed at that, but wouldn't loose much of theit charm if their maps were a bit less convoluted - like the ones in MMX for example (though it would be a much shorter game then). On the other hand, there's Elminage Gothic that has quite the labyrinths, that are devoid of anything other than (mostly random) fights - and that's bad level design, no matter how its maps look.

 

[Jasede]

How many Wizardry 5 clones do you know with linear corridors?

 

[V_K]

It's not necessary either linear corridors or noodles, you know. There are numerous other options inbetween.

 

[Nikaido]

How many Wizardry 5 clones do you know with linear corridors?

It was purely hypothetical, he was implying that the level design was irrelevant to why the games were good. If such a game did exist, would anyone play it here?

 

[Jasede]

No. The point I was making is that level design depends on the genre of the game. It's kind of invalid to bring up Wizardry 5 maps when most (all?) dungeon crawlers have complex maps, except for Casual Sorcerer. You can't really trace a decline there.

 

[Waterd]

So now the difference between good game design and bad game design is open maps vs linear maps?

 

[Volrath]

So now the difference between good game design and bad game design is open maps vs linear maps?

It's definitely a very big part of it yes. That's obvious to anyone who isn't

 

[Waterd]

What are the advantages for the purposes of a game, to have open maps instead of linear maps. How , from a game design Point of view, open maps are strictly superior to linear maps?

 

[Mangoose]

Depends on what you mean by "linear."

Linear in terms of limiting options is bad.

Linear in terms of having of corridor-y design but with a lot of branches and options is fine.

And linear is not superior or inferior to open maps. It depends on overall level/encounter design in that there are enough (consequential) choices to make, whether the map is linear or open.

No. The point I was making is that level design depends on the genre of the game. It's kind of invalid to bring up Wizardry 5 maps when most (all?) dungeon crawlers have complex maps, except for Casual Sorcerer. You can't really trace a decline there.

The topic is not specifically about dungeon crawlers.

 

[V_K]

Back on topic, started playing DOS some days ago. As expected, loving what they did with narrative design and environment interactions. But man, this game is soooooo sloooooooow - not FPS but pacing. Walking around takes forever, combat takes forever (thankfully, it's fun too), inventory management and bartering takes more than forever (DOS probably has one of the worst interfaces I've ever seen). I don't know if I'll be able to finish it - which would be a pity since there's a gret game at the core - but this snail's pace is killing all the fun for me.
Are there maybe some tricks to speed it up?

 

[abnaxus]

https://twitter.com/LarAtLarian/status/523088859689926657

 

[Kirkpatrick]

Quite the tease.

 

[Jaesun]

Where is my Isle of the Serpents expansion for D:OS.

 

[Perkel]

they created plugin for dwarf fortress adventure mode that will take gameplay and data from DF and put it in their shiny engine + all awesome things DOS did.