Dragon Age must sell 2 million copies

[Elzair]

Eh? You have a very weak argument there buddy ol' boy. Even EA has forfeited the most rigid forms of DRM, mainly because of lessons from Spore. A DRM was planned for DA:O, but later scrapped. The numbers are in this case hidden, since companies don't make their market shares public. So we don't know whether it hurt the industry. But we do know they're moving away from rigid DRM, and we also know that tech support has gotten more complaints over DRM than any other problem in 07/08.

I notice you did not respond to the second part of my statement. The kerfuffle over SecurROM, etc. is a feint. Game companies are very interested in consoles because they represent a heavily locked-down environment largely free of piracy. Any remaining PC game companies are probably quite interested in TCPA.

 

[Trash]

The Amiga died a slow death because of piracy.

No, son. CBM killed the Amiga through mismanagement. You might want to read up on the company's history before throwing around blanket catchphrases.

I did. Better even, I was around during those days. The times I saw someone with legitimate software can be counted on one hand. Plenty of developers simply stopped developing for the Amiga since they hardly made any money with their products. Piracy might not have been the final undoing of the Amiga, it sure as hell didn't help.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Hmm... am I ripping people off?

From Meriam Webster:

1 : an act or instance of stealing : theft; also : a financial exploitation
2 : a usually cheap exploitive imitation

Well, we've already established that it's not theft, and I'm not cheaply imitating them... so where is the ripping off from?

Basically, who is being hurt by piracy? And if no one is being hurt by it, is it wrong?

 

[hal900x]

Gotta agree with Trash, without commenting on the effects on the industry at that time. I have never seen more rampant piracy than in the Amiga era. I never owned one, but every person I knew that had an Amiga had a virtual fucking pirate factory running in their office. Pirating those games was mostly as simply as a disc copy command, from the looks of it.

 

[Trash]

Hmm... am I ripping people off?

From Meriam Webster:

1 : an act or instance of stealing : theft; also : a financial exploitation
2 : a usually cheap exploitive imitation

Well, we've already established that it's not theft, and I'm not cheaply imitating them... so where is the ripping off from?

Basically, who is being hurt by piracy? And if no one is being hurt by it, is it wrong?

Semantics and bull. Piracy is stealing. Then again, who cares.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Go away Trash, you're too level-headed and non-extremist for this forum.

 

[Forest Dweller]

If rentals were a possibility for PC games, I would gladly shell out the $8 to try out a game that I'm not sure of. I doubt I'd pirate a single game.

My local video shop rents out computer and console games. Is it the computer game producers fault that you are either 1) too lazy to extend your search further to find a store that rents video games or 2) unlucky enough to not have any stores in your town/city that rent video games?

No, but it's their fault for not making a game that's worth my fifty bucks. Console developers don't get my money when I rent a game either. Yeah I know, the rental places buy the games based on number of rentals, but still. Many rentals have to add up to one purchase, from the developer's/publisher's perspective. Why should any greater courtesy be extended to PC developers?

Like I said, I know it's stealing, but the alternative is paying fifty dollars for every mediocre and/or short game you want to play, or a game you're not sure about, and that's even worse.

But PC rentals do exist in some stores, huh? Well then it needs to become more widespread. Some entrepeneur needs to get on that shit. Is it a good selection in the stores you're talking about? Also, where do you live? A big city?

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Hmm... am I ripping people off?

From Meriam Webster:

1 : an act or instance of stealing : theft; also : a financial exploitation
2 : a usually cheap exploitive imitation

Well, we've already established that it's not theft, and I'm not cheaply imitating them... so where is the ripping off from?

Basically, who is being hurt by piracy? And if no one is being hurt by it, is it wrong?

Semantics and bull. Piracy is stealing. Then again, who cares.

It may be semantics, as in by definition piracy isn't stealing. Call it piracy, don't call it stealing.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Go away Trash, you're too level-headed and non-extremist for this forum.

Yes - Stick to the GD forum where your well thought out arguments will have a receptive and understanding audience.

 

[Elzair]

Hmm... am I ripping people off?

From Meriam Webster:

1 : an act or instance of stealing : theft; also : a financial exploitation
2 : a usually cheap exploitive imitation

Well, we've already established that it's not theft, and I'm not cheaply imitating them... so where is the ripping off from?

Basically, who is being hurt by piracy? And if no one is being hurt by it, is it wrong?

Here is the Wiktionary definition

Rip off
1: To pull off by ripping
2: (idiomatic) to steal, cheat or swindle
3: (idiomatic) to copy, especially illegally. They ripped off the whole idea from their competitors.
4: (idiomatic) to charge an exorbitant or unfair rate. I can't believe how the car dealerships try to rip off their customers.

 

[Lingwe]

Basically, who is being hurt by piracy? And if no one is being hurt by it, is it wrong?

The people who legitimately pay for the product obviously. You are consuming a product for free while they are paying for it.

Nope. Didn't know that. But that's probably because it's a load of horseshit. No playing them/boycott is political consumption. It has all the documented effect of healing by crystals.

Hmm, I guess you forget then that it was lack of sales that killed any FOBOS sequels, not piracy. Lack of sales is just as effective as sales lost through piracy. If the game doesn't make a decent enough return on the investment then the publisher is unlikely to fund a sequel or a different game from that that developer.

I pirate as a 'fuck you' to the industry. It's called civil disobedience. The true fucking atrocity isn't me, it's you. You mindless fucks, throwing around money like it's the industry's birthday, sucking the milk in from their lactating titty of shit. And you're happy about it.

I'm guessing your complaints are about the quality of the games they are producing then. I'm quoting this part because...

Piracy has a well-documented effect for pushing new buisnessmodels.

Try and keep at least some consistency in your arguments, particularly when you are defending your actions when they are illegal. First you claim that piracy is your way of telling computer game producers that you are unhappy with the quality of the product. Then you change your argument to claiming that it will push a new business model. What part of quality of gameplay and distribution/content addition methods have to do with each other?

Also you don't need to swear so much, it lessens the effectiveness of the times when you do swear.

Oh and I've only purchased one game this year (Dragon Age). So it's hardly like I am throwing around money like its the industry's birthday. Conversely I've only played games that I bought in previous years. So somehow I managed to make do without playing all but one of the new games released this year and you weren't able to. Perhaps the problem is just with your attention span and willingness to replay older games...

 

[Elzair]

B) No, I've never said that. That's idiotic. Part of piracy represents lost sale, but not by a long shot all of it.

So you are aware that most pirates have no ideological motivations for their activities. If you are aware of it, then publishers are as well. Any "ideological" pirates will be ignored in the vast seas of the "ZOMG Free Gamez" pirates.

You are not "fighting" the industry in any way. The only message you are sending is that you are happy to play the shit that they spew out, but you are not willing to buy it (i.e. their games are not worth your money, but they are worth your time). This has much less bearing on the industry and much more bearing on your system of values. If you REALLY wanted to fight the industry, you would completely avoid industry games and support (yes with your hard-earned money) developers outside the industry.

 

[Grunker]

B) No, I've never said that. That's idiotic. Part of piracy represents lost sale, but not by a long shot all of it.

So you are aware that most pirates have no ideological motivations for their activities. If you are aware of it, then publishers are as well. Any "ideological" pirates will be ignored in the vast seas of the "ZOMG Free Gamez" pirates.

You are not "fighting" the industry in any way. The only message you are sending is that you are happy to play the shit that they spew out, but you are not willing to buy it (i.e. their games are not worth your money, but they are worth your time). This has much less bearing on the industry and much more bearing on your system of values. If you REALLY wanted to fight the industry, you would completely avoid industry games and support (yes with your hard-earned money) developers outside the industry.

In the name of my mothers left titty, I must explain everything from point 0 with you, eh?

Okay.

Step 1: There are a slim number of ideological pirates.

Step 2: The industry doesn't care about their motivation.

Step 3: A given number of the pirates would buy the game, if there was no other option.

Step 4: Another given number are potential future customers.

Step 5: Piracy is spreading.

Step 6: This means the industry does not like piracy.

Step 7: So they will try killing it.

Step 8: They've tried, tried again, and failed.

Step 9: So what will kill pirates? Well, according to the research, most people would really, really like to be legal. People actually go rather far to legalize themselves. The research thus concludes, that piracy exists the easyness of is huge enough to outweigh the claim of law.

Step 10: Thus, solving the issue requires one of two things: Making pirating harder, or making acquiring entertainment easier.

Step 11: Making pirating harder is impossible.

Step 12: Making the market more flexible is very possible.

Step 13: Lessons from the music industry show that the most money to be had, comes from alternative business models.

Step 14: The gaming industry must make an alternative model. Digital distribution is a step in that direction, a failed attempt.



So you see, I don't really give a fuck as to whether you think I'm immoral, or whether you think the gaming industry don't give a fuck or somesuch. The issue will solve itself. Rather ironically, it will solve itself because of the reasons the problem even arised:

We have a free market, and thank God for that. They pushed the envelope for making money hard in the gaming industry, and they are pushing it further still. Piracy arose. Now, at some point, someone's gonna figure out a way to make money off of these guys (i.e. giving the service away for free (see Google, Last.fm, Radiohead)), making alternative business models that work in the same fashion (i.e very little so far, TDC music perhaps) or entirely reforming the system.

Now you might call me a dreamer or some such, but I don't give a fuck, 'cause you know what?

In the end, I'm still playing games, and I'm not endorsing an abusive industry. That's why my tears stay on the inside of my skull.

 

[DemonKing]

I've played pirated stuff in the past - but only when I was a poor student who couldn't afford to play games any other way (back in the Apple II/C64 days!).

It's all very well to say you pirate for idealogical reasons to punish evil corporations for trying to feed you dross, but the problem I have is that pirates are:

1. Encouraging publishers to move away from the PC platform (even though there are plenty of console pirates).
2. Spitting on the efforts of those individuals who put a lot of time and effort into creating games.

You probably don't care either way, but that's why I try to support the PC platform by buying legitimate copies of games I want these days.

 

[circ]

The Amiga died a slow death because of piracy.

No, son. CBM killed the Amiga through mismanagement. You might want to read up on the company's history before throwing around blanket catchphrases.

I did. Better even, I was around during those days. The times I saw someone with legitimate software can be counted on one hand. Plenty of developers simply stopped developing for the Amiga since they hardly made any money with their products. Piracy might not have been the final undoing of the Amiga, it sure as hell didn't help.

Piracy killed Amiga partially? No. /Volourn
Mismanagement, ever cheaper PC's and the second coming of consoles killed the Amiga. CD32 killed Amiga. Philips killed Amiga. Everything but rampant piracy. And add to that that the Amiga in retrospect wasn't as popular as one might think. I, and many others, still used a C64 for a while after the Amiga had been released. I switched to an Atari because its OS wasn't a piece of crap. Some people traded down their Amigas for a SNES. Nostalgia might make one think that Amiga was better than it was.

Did piracy fire loony Steve Jobs? Did piracy cause the close call dissolvement of Apple in the 90s? Just because you no longer saw tapes or disks with 100+ games on them on the PC didn't mean that piracy took a break. VHS didn't kill the movie industry any more than tapes or CD's killed the music industry.

Piracy is little more than an excuse used by ignorant or not so ignorant publishers and developers to excuse buggy unplayable repetitive shit.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Piracy is little more than an excuse used by ignorant or not so ignorant publishers and developers to excuse buggy unplayable repetitive shit.

Bingo. EA used it to justify Spore's poor (in relation to the hype) sales.

Ultimately, the sales "lost" from piracy are fairly minute by most accounts. Sales are always going to be a reflection of the quality of the product, and while popular games will get pirated more, they'll also sell more.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

That's avoiding the question.

A simple statement was made. People who pirate wouldn't buy the games anyway, therefore nothing is really lost by the industry when people pirate their games.

Therefore, if no harm is done to the industry, why is piracy wrong? Who is the victim? Who is wronged?

That's beside the point. You're supposed to pay for the games, no matter how shitty banalboring they are. If you play them without paying, even if you consider them shit but get them anyway because, well, they're there, you're doing a wrong thing.

Again, pirate all you want, but don't come up with silly excuses.

 

[Grunker]

That's avoiding the question.

A simple statement was made. People who pirate wouldn't buy the games anyway, therefore nothing is really lost by the industry when people pirate their games.

Therefore, if no harm is done to the industry, why is piracy wrong? Who is the victim? Who is wronged?

That's beside the point. You're supposed to pay for the games, no matter how shitty banalboring they are. If you play them without paying, even if you consider them shit but get them anyway because, well, they're there, you're doing a wrong thing.

Again, pirate all you want, but don't come up with silly excuses.

You're certainly doing the unlawful thing, but your assessment of wrong is highly subjective, and your arguments are worth a clown and a hairy pussy. Sorry man.

In a state, doing the lawful thing is almost always the right thing; but there are cases in which the state overrules the premise of it's own existense: To protect the citizen. But fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-

This discussion could continue for years. Gonna have a brew and forget about it.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

and your arguments are worth a clown and a hairy pussy.

Is this a Danish saying or something?

 

[Lingwe]

I pirate as a 'fuck you' to the industry. Poor quality blah blah.

Step 14: The gaming industry must make an alternative model. Digital distribution is a step in that direction, a failed attempt.

Does not compute. Does not compute.

First you argue that you do it because the game quality is poor. Then you do it because you are forced to get off your fat ass and walk down to the store to purchase a game.

The silence is defeaning.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

That's avoiding the question.

A simple statement was made. People who pirate wouldn't buy the games anyway, therefore nothing is really lost by the industry when people pirate their games.

Therefore, if no harm is done to the industry, why is piracy wrong? Who is the victim? Who is wronged?

That's beside the point. You're supposed to pay for the games, no matter how shitty banalboring they are. If you play them without paying, even if you consider them shit but get them anyway because, well, they're there, you're doing a wrong thing.

Again, pirate all you want, but don't come up with silly excuses.

Illegal =/= wrong

 

[Grunker]

and your arguments are worth a clown and a hairy pussy.

Is this a Danish saying or something?

Sorry to disappoint, but no. Would like to hear it in the public more often though.

I pirate as a 'fuck you' to the industry. Poor quality blah blah.

Step 14: The gaming industry must make an alternative model. Digital distribution is a step in that direction, a failed attempt.

Does not compute. Does not compute.

First you argue that you do it because the game quality is poor. Then you do it because you are forced to get off your fat ass and walk down to the store to purchase a game.

The silence is defeaning.

Wat? I no undastand. My fat ass, weighty as it may be, has got nothing to with it. The development of an alternative business model is a means to make games cheaper, heighten availability, and make the terms of the market more fair. That's where DD failed.

I don't think I indicated anywhere that I was using piracy to make the industry cater to my lazyness. Although, now that you mention it...

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Illegal =/= wrong

row row fight the powa

You're certainly doing the unlawful thing, but your assessment of wrong is highly subjective, and your arguments are worth a clown and a hairy pussy. Sorry man.

I'm p sure paying for stuff you're supposed to pay for is the right thing, unless you live in Bizzarro wold or something

but I too, don't care. Gonna have chocolate milk, btw

btw, what's wrong with hairy pussy? Pedo.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

anyone who views piracy as some ideological battle and not as a way to get free games is p retarded.

i mean, i pay to support the devs sometimes, but as long as there's free games i'll get them, i know it's wrong, but who cares?

the only way to stop piracy is to make some sort of unbreakable drm or shut down all the torrent sites, both of which would be ridiculously hard.

one thing they could do would be to make linking to pirated material illegal as well as hosting it.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

It isn't ideals that makes me think that piracy isn't wrong, it's the fact that it is 100% victimless. Not a single person or entity is hurt by me pirating a game. The company doesn't have a lost sale, since I wouldn't have bought it in the first place, and the people that did pay for it aren't hurt, since their enjoyment is in no way affected by my act.

It's not ideals, it's logic. If no harm is done, how is something wrong? I've yet to hear any argument to support that.