From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Lyric Suite]

a feminine youthful look is their equivalent of Schwarzenegger at his peak for us

Japanese history disagrees with that, since Japanese males neither looked feminine nor they behaved in a feminine manner. Even the chonmage. People say the origin of this style was purely practical (samurai shaved the top of their heads because it made wearing helmets easier), but i wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't some metaphysical meaning since the "head" is the symbol of masculinity. Same reason why traditionally only male Jews were allowed to wear the Kippah.

Now, what IS true though is that Japanese culture did have something analogous to European romance, where femininity had a crucial role in the path towards spiritual realization taken by warriors (Dante's Divine Comedy is the highest example of this concept, Beatrice literally guiding Dante through the highest levels of spiritual realization in the Paradiso). We see something of that in Sanjuro, where Mifume's character is "tempered" through the intercession of a feminine influence (which is shown to be frivolous but with a wisdom of its own).

I will agree on one thing though. Feminine beauty in men in Japanese anime and media has nothing sexual about it. The first example that came to my mind was from the old Hokuto no Ken anime i used to watch as a kid, specifically the story of Rei and Yuda. From what i remember, Yuda was a narcissist who at one point had his ego completely shattered after becoming raptured by the grace and beauty of Rei's fighting style. Unable to cope with the fact someone's else beauty could "enter his heart" (given that his narcisism made him think nobody was more beautiful than himself), he hatched a plot to destroy Rei, and also tried to elevate his own beauty through crotesque means, by wearing make up and taking up feminine features, or by surrounding himself with beautiful women, out of which he demanded absolute perfection (and if they didn't meet his standards he would just throw them at his men for their amusement).

At no point did sexuality enter into this story. Yuda was not "gay", secretly or otherwise. His confession after Rei defeats him was not a confession of love, but a final admission he knew deep down he couldn't be as beautiful as the latter. His feelings towards Rei had to do with admiration, not sexual attraction. I can only imagine what a modern "localizer" would do with a story like that.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

They did the same thing with Margott or w/e his name is when it was revealed his entire character and motivation all along was wanting buttsex with Miquella, though I don't know if that was something From wanted or GRRM wanted.

100% that was Martin's idea.

doubt it, that's not his style
the fat man did the broad strokes of the lore, the details are entirely From's doing

Japanese history disagrees with that,

right back at you

yes these are men (the ones carrying swords anyway)
this piece is from the Edo period - when they were dumb isolationists, all about muh tradition like fucking boys in ass

how about we go back, to the Kamakura period:

this was the time that saw the emergence of the samurai class
and fittingly the subject of the art is wa
as it can been seen it idealizes martial prowess and physical fitness
but it still can be observed that the "heroes" of this piece have more feminine traits than the villains - their faces are soft as opposed to rough, their hair is uncut and well groomed, they wear "dresses" as opposed to armor revealing their bodies, even their poses are more elegant

but let's go backards again, now to the Heian period - their "cultural peak":

depection of a scene from "The Tale of Genji", the literary masterpiece of the time
Genji being a son of the emperor, described as a genius and a superbly handsome man (so much so he tempted both men and women alike)

since Japanese males neither looked feminine nor they behaved in a feminine manner.

no shit, it's an ideal for a reason - i.e. no one is ever going to attain it
try not to be so literalist
"femine" as in - soft, graceful, even androgynous features
not that they acted like women

you later mention mifune, but mifune to them is like (ironically) charles bronson to us
he's not what they consider handsome, let alone a beautiful man

agree with the rest of your post though

 

[Stoned Ape]

Another couple of minor contemporary points, facial hair is considered extremely unattractive by the majority of Japanese women. There are obviously exceptions to this but it holds true in the majority of cases.

There is a general romanticisation of youth in their media (in the way that youth symbolises potential and your teenage the best time of life). Men are generally considered 'uncle' types by their late 20's/early 30's.

The most successful male gigolo in Japan is this guy:

 

[Skinwalker]

East azns are very low-T genetically, and they eat tons of soy on top of that.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Cherry picking images from past eras without pointing out the meaning or origin is not a good argument.

For instance, the first image you posted is a 17th century Ukiyo-e print, from the same guy who painted this kind of shit:

And all the other funny porno images you may have seen on the internet form time to time. The painting you posted is supposed to depict an hunting party, i'm assuming of what are meant to be young men or men of a different social status. It's your "mind" to think the rapresentation is supposed to be feminine, since those are just Japanese men without chonmage, but there is no proof that was the intended aim of those rapresentations. In another painting rapresenting hunters, we do see a man with chonmage:

I'm going out of a limb and assume the hunters are of a lower social status, hence the different hairstyle, and they aren't intended to be seen as feminine at all. The one steering the boat, whom i assume is of even lower status than the hunters, also has that same hairstyle.

As for the The Tale of Genj (written by a wombyn btw, so no wonder the protagonist is a faggot lmao. I kid, i kid), the main character of that story is supposed to rapresent the ephemeral nature of human existence (given the Buddhist message of the work). Genj is intentionally portrayed as being an effete because the point is to show the pointlessness of chasing after human pleasures. Now, the picture you posted is also from the 17th century, but the original text actually came with it's own artwork, which shows how men and women were seen in the 12th century:

And this is from a 17h century series of prints intended to also accompany this text who were specifically made to respect the "older" style:

As you can see, there's no mistaking who the men are.

 

[Skinwalker]

As you can see, there's no mistaking who the men are.

I had to literally stare at the first pic for several minutes to figure out what is happening and who is getting fucked by whom.

 

[Lyric Suite]

As you can see, there's no mistaking who the men are.

I had to literally stare at the first pic for several minutes to figure out what is happening and who is getting fucked by who.

Don't be a retard. The style is abstract but the subjects are clear.

Here's a 12th century portrait of the first Shogun of Japan:

And this is a painting of a Samurai who led an embassy to Rome to have an audience with the Pope, made in 1615 by an Italian artist:

 

[mediocrepoet]

As you can see, there's no mistaking who the men are.

I had to literally stare at the first pic for several minutes to figure out what is happening and who is getting fucked by who.

Don't be a retard. The style is abstract but the subjects are clear.

I think you're overestimating Liberal's understanding of human anatomy.

 

[Caim]

He's got a nice coat of arms on the flag.

 

[Skinwalker]

As you can see, there's no mistaking who the men are.

I had to literally stare at the first pic for several minutes to figure out what is happening and who is getting fucked by who.

Don't be a retard.

Would that I could!

 

[Barbarian]

So those "will you follow us?" people are followers of miquella or something?

And I imagine in true elden ring memetic fashion they will all die when you complete their quests(and then you get their unique armor).

 

[mediocrepoet]

Many sacrifices must be made so I can have the perfect hat!

#fashionsouls

 

[cvv]

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Reposting from the destiny thread because of the bit in orange, might be relevant to this thread

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulta...-final-shape-expansion-early/?sh=198138941524

Sony Just Leaked Destiny 2’s ‘The Final Shape’ Expansion Early​

It is a disastrous morning for Bungie and the Destiny 2 community as next Tuesday’s mega-expansion, The Final Shape, has been leaked early.

What precisely happened is still being worked out, but this appears to be an issue with Sony PS5 streaming, where the DLC was made available briefly through that service. It’s been nuked now, but an incredible amount of damage has already been done. (There are no spoilers in this article).

The leak allowed some players to start the campaign, but more pressingly, see loads of information in the collections system, leading to story spoilers circulating on the internet, which will no doubt soon include spamming of them in threads, stream chats, even in-game, as unfortunately that’s what always happens with this sort of thing.

In addition to the story spoilers, there are now raid mechanics that have been leaked early, casting a shadow on what would be the highest profile raid race in Destiny history, as if you do not know those leaks, you would be at an immediate disadvantage over those who have seen them.

This is, without a doubt, one of the worst leaks and screw-ups I’ve ever seen, and it appears to be entirely Sony-based, as this is the only platform where this happened and it’s tied up in their streaming functionality. The exact technical nature of how this unfolded remains to be seen, but it’s an issue Sony must address immediately lest this happen elsewhere. There are other, as-of-yet unconfirmed reports that this may have also made Elden Ring’s Shadow of the Erdtree playable, but I have not seen confirmation of that like I have with the Final Shape leak.

It's hard to overstate just how devastating a leak like this is for Bungie, where so much hinges on the release of this expansion, the culmination of a ten year saga, and the leaks are not just leaks, they are spoilers for years-long plot threads.

The community seems to be rallying to clamp down on the spread of these leaks as much as possible, but the only real solution to this is to go completely dark online until Tuesday, as there are just too many avenues for this stuff to pop up. All it takes is one comment, one line of chat, to ruin a major plot point, and I’ve been here before with many different games. Stay online at all and it’s almost impossible to avoid, especially when a leak is this large. And there are plenty of people with vendettas against Bungie who are more than happy to spread stuff like this around maliciously.

It's awful. We need to know exactly what happened here, and how it can be avoided in the future. But for Destiny 2, it’s too late.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

So those "will you follow us?" people are followers of miquella or something?

Sounded to me like either revamped co-op or recruitable NPCs. Then again, probably not.

 

[Barbarian]

So those "will you follow us?" people are followers of miquella or something?

Sounded to me like either revamped co-op or recruitable NPCs. Then again, probably not.

Recruitable npcs in a fromsoft game are highly unlikely I think. We already have spirit ashes and temporary ally summons anyway.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Agreed, the sentence just stood out.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

And all the other funny porno images you may have seen on the internet form time to time.

If you are trying to imply that most shunga art of the period is primarly the responsibility of one artist, then you can stop.
Because most ukiyo-e artists did shunga at one point in their carreers.
By the way, it's an art form whose roots date back to the Heian period, when erotic scrolls were present and appreciated among court nobles.

It's your "mind" to think the rapresentation is supposed to be feminine

It's your "mind" to think there exists no substantial distinctions in worldviews and ideas between cultures.

During the Heian period, the ideal of male beauty emphasized slender builds, a round face with soft delicate features, long straight hair, fair smooth skin and a focus on elegance - graceful posture, gentle voice, serene demeanor, sophisticated mannerisms, elaborate grooming practices, curated clothing and accessories (such as flowing silk robes with colorful patterns and intricate decorative hair ornaments).
Also the more educated men were - able to engage in refined conversation, skilled in poetry, calligraphy, music and simply having sharp artistic sensibilities - the more attractive they seen. And nobles in general were expected to excel in courtly pursuits. The ability to convey emotions and sentiments through poetic expression was specially admired.

The standard of male beauty underwent a shift during the Kamakura period. From the delicate and refined aesthetic of the Heian era, to a more masculine and rugged appearance befitting the rising warrior class.
Physical robustness, muscular build, strong defined facial features (square jaw, prominent cheekbones, stoic demeanor). A more natural and unadorned aesthetic became popular, with an emphasis on simplicity and practicality in clothing and grooming.
Martial proficiency became the primary focus of education and social value. However intellectual and artistic pursuits were not entirely abandoned.

In the Edo period, there's yet another significant evolution regarding of male beauty. This time to a kind of synthesis between the two earlier periods.
The ideal face was neither too rugged nor too delicate, rather a balance between strength and refinement, though youthful appearance was very esteemed. Well-proportioned and graceful physique, clear skin, a balanced symmetrical face. The traditional topknot remained popular among samurai, but other meticulous hairstyles emergerd (especially among the merchant and artisan classes) and the use of hair oil to achieve a glossy look was common.
Attention to personal hygiene and grooming became more important than in the Kamakura era. While practicality remained a concern regarding clothing, kimonos made from luxurious fabrics with intricate designs and patterns became much more sought after. Fun fact, in this regard, the theater of the time (Kabuki), was popular to the point that theirs actors often set trends in fashion and grooming.
The ideal composure for a man, was one of dignified poise coupled with confident gracefulness and an air of sophistication. As there was a growing appreciation for refinement and aesthetic sensibility, a well-rounded man was one that not only faithfully adhered to values of loyalty, honor, and self-discipline, but also had knowledge and appreciation for intellectual activities and the finer things in life (calligraphy, poetry, tea ceremonies, conversation and other cultural arts).
But perhaps the epitome of the Edo ideal of male beauty was the Wakashu (young men in their late teens to early twenties), which emphasized a balance of both masculine and feminine traits - often depicted in literature and art as androgynous and beautiful. I suspect this a cause for the emergence of the contemporary Nanshoku tradition - homoerotic relationships between older men and wakashu. These boys were accepted as suitable objects of erotic desire for both older women and men (as long as it was the latter that played the active sexual role).

the original text actually came with it's own artwork, which shows how men and women were seen in the 12th century:

Aside from the haircut and very small mustache, both the male and female quite explicity share the same soft features

Here's a 12th century portrait of the first Shogun of Japan:

>realistic portrait of a real person = artistic rendition of ideal male beauty

 

[Lyric Suite]

During the Heian period, the ideal of male beauty emphasized slender builds, a round face with soft delicate features, long straight hair, fair smooth skin and a focus on elegance - graceful posture, gentle voice, serene demeanor, sophisticated mannerisms, elaborate grooming practices, curated clothing and accessories (such as flowing silk robes with colorful patterns and intricate decorative hair ornaments).
Also the more educated men were - able to engage in refined conversation, skilled in poetry, calligraphy, music and simply having sharp artistic sensibilities - the more attractive they seen. And nobles in general were expected to excel in courtly pursuits. The ability to convey emotions and sentiments through poetic expression was specially admired.

Source?

Because again, context matters here.

>realistic portrait of a real person = artistic rendition of ideal male beauty

That's not the point. The "ideal" ought to reflect the reality to some degree. If the men of that era had a particular aesthetic ideal associated with them, it would reflect in their style and mannerism. How can an "ideal" have no effect on the reality of the people who concieved it? And yet, we can see that in fact there was a sharp distinction between men and women in the style of that epoch:

See, the issue with a lot of those arguments is that the people making them always lose sight of the fact human nature is a constant. A lot of those arguments are made under the assumption that "culture" is absolute, which is how people end up imagining things about the ancient world that can only be exagerations once you factor in that human beings were the same then as they are now and that nothing changed in how human nature works.

So no, the men of the "Heian period" were not dandies who behaved like women. Masculinity is and forever will be a manifestation of God's absolute essence in the world (while feminity is a manifestation of his infinite as well as pure substance), and even the wildest cultural aberration cannot change that. Even today it hasn't altered sexual dynamics in any meaningful ways, and our culture is far, FAR more aberrant than any we ever had in the past.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

So no, the men of the "Heian period" were not dandies who behaved like women.

He doesn't argue this in his post though.

 

[Lyric Suite]

So no, the men of the "Heian period" were not dandies who behaved like women.

He doesn't argue this in his post though.

But if that's the ideal, why didn't the reality conform to it.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

But if that's the ideal, why didn't the reality conform to it.

Entirely besides the point, also it never does.

 

[mediocrepoet]

So no, the men of the "Heian period" were not dandies who behaved like women.

He doesn't argue this in his post though.

But if that's the ideal, why didn't the reality conform to it.

When this is the ideal:

How could this possibly be the reality:

 

[Lyric Suite]

But if that's the ideal, why didn't the reality conform to it.

Entirely besides the point, also it never does.

Of course it does what kind of stupid argument is that. If a society has an ideal of course everybody in it would strive to live up to it.

He doesn't argue this in his post though.

But if that's the ideal, why didn't the reality conform to it.

When this is the ideal:

View attachment 50359

How could this possibly be the reality:

View attachment 50360

The men of that era didn't "fail" to live up to the ideal only because reality falls short of being on the same level as the ideal. They never bothered because they never believed in any such ideal.

Case in point: most women, fat or thin, young or old, all strive to emulate the ideal of what a woman ought to look like. Not all of the succeed, but they all strive, including the fat women in your picture. A fat woman isn't gonna just give up trying to be feminine merely because she falls short of the perfection of the ideal.

So when we look at the style of the men Heian period we can see their "ideal" was one of masculinity, not femininity:

The dress style for the men expresses dignity and authority. It's refined but not intended to be mistaken for a feminine dress.

 

[Skinwalker]

Why are those guys wearing teapots with ribbons on their heads?