From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Lyric Suite]

It's got to be nearly impossible to beat some of these bosses without doing it.

Queue some nolife streamer finishing a SL1 no-damage run, naked, without the blessings, armed with a modded-in broken laddle from DS2.

They always do. But what those videos don't show is they spent 6 months grinding that run to pull it off.

They are already doing it now.

 

[Hell Swarm]

i'd expect this kind of arguments form retarded normies, not Codexers.

And I'd expect more thought put into yours. What illusion of choice? What are you talking about? Why would our build choices be an illusion and why would they not matter? Maybe it's late but I can't even...

Builds are clearly real. They matter. They would matter if you have 2 larvas, 20 larvas or farmable larvas. You're bored or struggling? Bam, two larvas in 10 minutes of farming, you can try a couple of new builds. Who's hurt, what's ruined, where's the tragedy? Eh...

You lose your choices mattering. If you spec into a colossal weapon build and you run into a boss that struggles against respecing to fast bleed build that decimates it makes any build decisions invalid. There's no pros or cons, there's simply respecting to burst the bosses down. You're never made to adapt your build and play style to overcome a counter to it. You just keep countering what they do by doing the exact solution.

 

[cvv]

If you spec into a colossal weapon build and you run into a boss that struggles against respecing to fast bleed build that decimates it makes any build decisions invalid.

Ok I see now but not sure I agree. It wouldn't be completely frictionless, you would have to farm for a bit and run to Renalla and do all that dance.

Btw you can change your build on the fly in DD2, AFAIK there's no friction at all, and I haven't seen many people being bothered by that. Maybe it'd be a much smaller problem that ya'll think

 

[Ravielsk]

From have done everything they can to nerf the players ability to be punished for bad decision making and From were refreshing because they did stuff like Yurt and Lautrec which did punish the player for not paying attention.

More like they keep writing themselves "get out of jail free" cards. This DLC is kind of the epitome of that particular attitude where they clearly built the DLC around for a very particular playstyle and nothing else. My hybrid spellsword character for example is completely cooked in the DLC because I never prioritized status build up. A perfectly valid choice in the base game but a utter fucking mistake for the DLC when bosses like Radhan have around 100K HP. He also two shots me even with 18 blessings, after the recent patch mind you, and regularly tanks my framerate... but I guess that is perfectly OK when I can just respec into a greatshield build and poke him to death.

Same with Mimic tear and other cheese strategies. It feels like they are here to cover up the fact that from does not want to mess around with balance so they just threw them in to have an excuse for why the boss is allowed to suck ass.

 

[Silva]

So, any stuff related to Godskins / blackflame / Gloom-Eyed Queen?

Or at least stuff that would fit such a build: death incantations, talismans, weapons, etc?

 

[Hell Swarm]

If you spec into a colossal weapon build and you run into a boss that struggles against respecing to fast bleed build that decimates it makes any build decisions invalid.

Ok I see now but not sure I agree. It wouldn't be completely frictionless, you would have to farm for a bit and run to Renalla and do all that dance.

Btw you can change your build on the fly in DD2, AFAIK there's no friction at all, and I haven't seen many people being bothered by that. Maybe it'd be a much smaller problem that ya'll think

Maybe it's a problem we've been talking about since Dark souls 3? Maybe people who value player choice and being punished for making bad mistakes aren't happy at From's current approach to babying their players? Bosses are insane but we can't trust the player not to kill a tranny in their hub area.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

Btw you can change your build on the fly in DD2, AFAIK there's no friction at all, and I haven't seen many people being bothered by that. Maybe it'd be a much smaller problem that ya'll think

It hurt the replayability of Dragon's Dogma 2, but only because the game becomes piss easy after a certain point and they don't let you have more than one character. That was such a stupid decision. Elden Ring doesn't have either of those problems.

 

[Mortmal]

You can always comet azur your way to victory in Elden ring, it's always going to work but that's not what people are complaining about.

I am afraid not. Comet Azur had its range nerfed badly. It will work on some of the easier bosses, on overworld drakes and dragons, for example, but not on the ultra-aggressive and fast-moving DLC bosses. I have seen melee builds doing considerably more damage than this. My sorcery build is easy mode for clearing PvE content, but it doesn’t shine at all on bosses.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Comet Azur was overrated as hell anyways. It was that Meteorite of Astel that was really busted, at least against large bosses. And for smaller bosses there's always night comet. Comet Azur is a meme that needs like 12 pieces to setup and hardly ever works.

 

[Hell Swarm]

You can always comet azur your way to victory in Elden ring, it's always going to work but that's not what people are complaining about.

I am afraid not. Comet Azur had its range nerfed badly. It will work on some of the easier bosses, on overworld drakes and dragons, for example, but not on the ultra-aggressive and fast-moving DLC bosses. I have seen melee builds doing considerably more damage than this. My sorcery build is easy mode for clearing PvE content, but it doesn’t shine at all on bosses.

Doesn't matter when you have Mimic tear casting it from one side and you the other.

Reflecting back on my time with the DLC I'm really disappointed in From baiting and switching a change in style. You meet the Lion and you get all these different elemental attacks and it seems like weather or elemental focus might matter. It's the first boss so you expect it to set the tone of the whole DLC and give you your first lessons in what to expect.. And then that doesn't appear any where else. The lion soldiers in late game have a similar but toned down theme and the second time you run into a Lion but now it has support (Fuck From for reusing bosses in a DLC this expensive). We're tracking down a master of mind fuck and possibly illusions and that never comes into play. Pretty much the only roll over from the Lion is AOE spam becomes pretty common for the main story bosses.

Last boss spoilers

It's pretty fucking gay the entire DLC is centered around a backpack. A backpack who has 1 single attack and is other wise barely an entity in the entire fight. I was hoping for a fight where he's trying to charm you and using unique magic. Like Quindolin in Dark souls 1. But no, he's a backpack who adds Holy element to a guy which clashes entirely with the lore of the backpack up until that point. Sure he's becoming a God or whatever but if your gimmick is charming people you should have some effects that play upon that.

 

[Crayll]

So, any stuff related to Godskins / blackflame / Gloom-Eyed Queen?

Or at least stuff that would fit such a build: death incantations, talismans, weapons, etc?

Surprisingly nothing blackflame related at all as far as I know.
There is one lore tidbit that could be a Gloam Eyed Queen hint, but that's all.

Last boss spoilers

It's pretty fucking gay the entire DLC is centered around a backpack. A backpack who has 1 single attack and is other wise barely an entity in the entire fight. I was hoping for a fight where he's trying to charm you and using unique magic. Like Quindolin in Dark souls 1. But no, he's a backpack who adds Holy element to a guy which clashes entirely with the lore of the backpack up until that point. Sure he's becoming a God or whatever but if your gimmick is charming people you should have some effects that play upon that.

last boss spoilers

Technically he does have a charm attack, if you eat the grab twice he charms you into insta-death.

 

[Jinn]

Ok I see now but not sure I agree. It wouldn't be completely frictionless, you would have to farm for a bit and run to Renalla and do all that dance.

Respecing should be available, but it should be more sparingly so. You should have to live with your build choices to some degree, because that's what gives your choices weight. I think this is a concept any fan of RPGs can understand.

As it stands now, Elden Ring gives you too many opportunities to respec in a single run. With the Larval Tears found through normal exploration (ie I never use a guide) from the base game coupled with what I've found in the DLC, I have 11 total at my disposal currently. In my opinion, that's too many opportunities to completely rebuild your character and still feel like the choices you've made matter. And I know I'm going to find quite a few more before I'm done (about 20 hours into Shadow of the Erdtree right now).

EDIT: In modern Fromsoft games I usually set out with the self-imposed rule of sticking with my build until at least the end of the main campaign, but I can understand why others might want the option to respec. For the size of Elden Ring, maybe 4-6 respec opportunities through a single run seems reasonable to me. It provides the option, but the limit makes it so you can't haphazardly fiddle around with it.

 

[Silva]

There is one lore tidbit that could be a Gloam Eyed Queen hint, but that's all.

Which is..?

 

[Hell Swarm]

So, any stuff related to Godskins / blackflame / Gloom-Eyed Queen?

Or at least stuff that would fit such a build: death incantations, talismans, weapons, etc?

Surprisingly nothing blackflame related at all as far as I know.
There is one lore tidbit that could be a Gloam Eyed Queen hint, but that's all.

Last boss spoilers

It's pretty fucking gay the entire DLC is centered around a backpack. A backpack who has 1 single attack and is other wise barely an entity in the entire fight. I was hoping for a fight where he's trying to charm you and using unique magic. Like Quindolin in Dark souls 1. But no, he's a backpack who adds Holy element to a guy which clashes entirely with the lore of the backpack up until that point. Sure he's becoming a God or whatever but if your gimmick is charming people you should have some effects that play upon that.

last boss spoilers

Technically he does have a charm attack, if you eat the grab twice he charms you into insta-death.

I know about that. You can heal it off with an item and use the item during the grab so it doesn't really exist.

Being able to freely respect also lets From make lazy boss designs. If I can respec into a different build they know players can always respect to meet any challenge. They no longer have to balance stuff to five heals and every weapon should be viable

 

[abija]

Asmon said the DLC is a 10/10 and blamed his own mental problems for him sucking.

When "I'm Done with Elden Ring DLC. I Quit." clickbait title hit youtube there were meetings between people that have no clue about gaming that decided to pressure From. That's how shit like this happens.

 

[Lyric Suite]

i'd expect this kind of arguments form retarded normies, not Codexers.

And I'd expect more thought put into yours. What illusion of choice? What are you talking about? Why would our build choices be an illusion and why would they not matter? Maybe it's late but I can't even...

Builds are clearly real. They matter. They would matter if you have 2 larvas, 20 larvas or farmable larvas. You're bored or struggling? Bam, two larvas in 10 minutes of farming, you can try a couple of new builds. Who's hurt, what's ruined, where's the tragedy? Eh...

Illusion was the wrong word. Limited respec makes the choice matter. Infinite respec makes choices pointless. Why even bother crafting a build or weighting your next step. Also, why bother making new characters. Why even have different classes in the game with different build possibilites.

Who's hurt? The player gets hurt because now the game is suddenly less meaningful. To have to explain this in an RPG forum of all places is kinda of bizzare.

Let's not also forget there's limited resources to fully upgrade weapons too. While the difference between a +24 or +25 weapon isn't anything major, that too requires an hard choice.

If you want to try out different builds, just make a new character. I can't imagine anything more boring than just playing the same character indefinitely, just going through NG+ and then NG++ etc until you got so many levels there's not even gonna be a point respecing since your stats are all maxed out anyway.

 

[MasPingon]

Bold perfectly encapsulates "Elden Ring is all dodging" crowd here on Codex. But he is learning:

 

[Hell Swarm]

Bold perfectly encapsulates "Elden Ring is all dodging" crowd here on Codex. But he is learning:

The videos dishonest because it ignores one of the biggest factors in rolling. It moves you. You can jump some attacks and it does have more iframes but it's rather static. Where as rolling takes you through hit boxes in a way jumping doesn't. Elden ring does occasionally encourage you to jump but it's hardly shocking to find out that jumping avoids some attacks despite it being the sub optimal way to dodge them. It's like saying a ducking emote blocks some attacks. We know, but it doesn't make it the best option.

Any one saying "You don't lose anything from respecting" doesn't understand the value of a game making you make decisions and live with those consequences. If you can always respec into a build that hard counters a boss you don't ever have to struggle in the game. The new super boss is weak to bleed so I melted it with my dex build, while strength users struggled and had to fight a full fight against it. On the opposite side a boss that's really fast and you're only able to hit once before it runs away I'm going to have to find ways to adapt to get the most damage out of my weapon instead of just the status proc. These experiences are what make runs unique and change the games balance to make it dynamic. If I get to a boss I can't proc bleed on then I can always respec into a great hammer and kill it in 5 hits. What value did that fight have then? Absolutely none. I didn't gain or lose anything from respecing is bullshit. You lose the depth of the build system because every character has effectively maxed stats since you're never going to respec 30 times in a single play through. Most people probably soft respec once when they discover a really cool weapon but they need 12 arcane/faith/arc and switch those secondary stats around if they haven't unlocked the easy grind spots to grab the levels yet.

 

[Multidirectional]

Oh gee, so you can avoid a bunch of attacks by clipping into them with jump. That makes combat look way more intuitive and not trial and error bullshit at all, reinstalling immediately.

 

[Damned Registrations]

If you can always respec into a build that hard counters a boss you don't ever have to struggle in the game.

The problem with this argument is that your stats are like 10% of your build in ER anyways. You want to proc bleed? Use a bleed weapon. There's one for pretty much every weapon type and you can always rub the right kind of rock on it to get the effect if there isn't. Can't equip the weapon you want to use? Unless it's the fucking fingerprint shield, you can probably meet the requirements by equipping talismans and using a godrick's rune. Even if your damage output is like 20% lower than with a stat respec, it should still be fine if it's as much of a hard counter as you're claiming. You can use a rapier with the minimum dex requirements and just give it a heavy or elemental affinity, it'll be fine. It's extra irrelevant for the DLC because by then you've got a billion extra levels so you're losing like 5% damage from stats over the softcap to be able to use more weapons instead.

 

[abija]

You're not turning an effective caster into a dex bleeder on a whim. And hitting the softcaps for a faith arcane build for example takes you over lvl 200. The difference between soft and hardcaps is closer to 25% so it keeps almost linear with the stat increase.

I usually finish the first blind run considerably overleveled and was 180ish when I finished the game, you're not flying past softcaps even in dlc.

 

[MasPingon]

Oh gee, so you can avoid a bunch of attacks by clipping into them with jump. That makes combat look way more intuitive and not trial and error bullshit at all, reinstalling immediately.

So now FS game combat being a trial and error is bad? Those hipsters come up with new ways to stand out faster and faster nawadays.

 

[Multidirectional]

So now FS game combat being a trial and error is bad? Those hipsters come up with new ways to stand out faster and faster nawadays.

It is when bosses have loads of HP and can kill you in 1-2 hits. I wasn't bothered by it in Dark Souls 1-2, started hating it in subsequent Souls games. But I wouldn't expect From Soft fanboys who will never play better action games to understand. You people just don't know any better.

 

[Bloodeyes]

I'm having an amazing time in the DLC. 10/10 IMO but I'm not very far in because I keep tinkering with my build and invading to test it. I'm a level 168 thorn sorceror with a flame art fire knight's greatsword and two guilty staves. 60 vig, 80 fth. Blaster mage that can fight his way out of a corner if he has to:



Take a close look at those damage numbers. These aren't base vigor bozos I'm fighting, my damage is just that good.

 

[Damned Registrations]

The softcaps are at like, 40 last I checked. Level 180 is enough to go past that on multiple stats.

Like, how is this even a fucking discussion. I've done this shit multiple times. Switching from a heavy infusion to a frost/bleed/poison one without changing my stats had pretty trivial impact on the damage numbers. You're not losing that much damage unless your build is something retardedly lopsided like 80 points in multiple stats. Only casters justify that and they have enough build variety in their spells. Just pick different spells.