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From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

Hell Swarm

Learned
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What games have you been playing?

Lately mostly Nioh 2, got very addicted to it and now have 500+ hours on it. Learned to use almost every weapon, only 3 left I think. First game didn't grab me much, never even finished NG on it, but ever since starting sequel after finishing ER I cannot put it down for long. That one really clicked with me. And it felt like such a relief after a slog that was my ER run, having lots of fun powerful tools to destroy shit that aren't just some boring buff that lasts 10-20 seconds or some weapon art limited by mana pool. And the fact that fights vs multiple enemies are actually fun and not irritating clusterfuck like in Souls, that's a pretty big one for me. Before that played a bunch of DMC V, though never good enough to finish Dante Must Die. Final Fantasy Stranger of Paradise base game was also pretty enjoyable, didn't like the DLC though so dropped it there. Also played a bit of Vanquish for first time not long ago and it seemed quite fun, gonna go deeper into it once I can put down Nioh 2 for long enough. Guess I'll also have to play Dragon's Dogma 2 eventually, but need a CPU upgrade before I do that. Wo-Long too I guess, enjoyed couple levels of it that I played but couldn't get stable 60 FPS in fights no matter the settings so got butthurt about that and dropped it for now.
How are you finding going from Elden ring DLC to those games? It's shocking how fast it's become when I went back to DMC5.

Lords of the fallen's problem is it's a remake (maybe?) of an early souls game with no obvious push. If you're correct and it is about difficult exploration I'd love to play it, but I've seen barely anything about it and the original was.. okay?
The nuLotF isn't a remake, just another game in the same world. And yes the title is retarded.

Level-design wise the game resembles DS1/DS2 the most, with even more labyrinthine, vertical levels and tougher enemy encounters. That's why many normies hated it, crying about "mob density", "too many ranged enemies" and "constantly getting lost". You probably haven't heard much about it because it was thumbed down for that reason - plus it came out more broken than a skeleton punched by a greathammer.

Oh and the original is indeed only "ok" but back then it was the only soulslike in the years after DS2 so even "ok" was great. Plus it had some genuinely great design ideas.
LOTF is on game pass now so I'll give it a try once I'm done with this post. Thanks for reminding me, if it's anything like DS2 I'll have a blast.

Sure its all in the game but I have a hard time imagining a developer meeting where they put together a boss, his look, lore and moveset, estaminate it will take the team two weeks to make a prototype and then someone chimes in with "oh, and lets make sure the player can burst him down in 5 seconds with Comet Azure".
This is ultimately the problem. The game gives you tools expecting you to use some of them but people stacking all of them are breaking the game and then complaining it's too easy. It's like having a bag of donuts, eating them all and going "gee, I sure wish they gave me more donuts!" when someone else eats one a day and gets a richer experience. Any one can stuff 3 donuts in their face in a minute but you're missing the entire point of eating delicious food by doing it. And From are obsessed with making multi phase boss fights to up the difficulty and it does nothing to stop the problem players and does a lot to completely shut the game out for the majority of the audience.

A lot of problems are coming from streamers autistically grinding From games into the ground and demanding more 'content' to grind also being on the marketing team. It completely warps an action adventure into a boss rush where you have to burst things down or you end up with viewers bored you're still on the same boss/mod/whatever. From cannot cut these people off for marketing reasons but bowing to them and other faggots has destroyed any sense of "hard but fair" and adventure in these games. Frankly if Elden Ring was released along side Dark souls 1, no one would have played ER simply because it's so incredibly boring for the majority of it's play time.
Arguments for what? You project your experience as if it's the only way game was intended to be played. I only had to stagger the first golem I met twice. But I guess ancient dragon ls is another form of cheese.
You don't even know what staggering a furnace golem is.
 
Joined
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How are you finding going from Elden ring DLC to those games? It's shocking how fast it's become when I went back to DMC5.

I didn't play DLC and not sure if I'm ever going to. I decided that I have to be able to at least finish the base game second time before even thinking about buying DLC. So far I made three attempts at it only to get bored and drop it. Last time I took my mage through Stormveil and even felt some of the old magic return while doing that castle, really enjoyable level. But then once done with it I step into Liurnia and get hit with overwhelming sense of fatique yet again. I really didn't want to continue. Even though I'm not a big fan of combat design in ER it's not actually my main issue with it. The structure of the game is. Searching the open world for the next thing to do is too tedious for me. Otherwise I would've already replayed it and figured out my favorite ways to trivialize my least favorite boss fights.
 

Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,652
If someone stuck with a shield build and it happened to pay off at the final boss it's not some design mistake or some cheese from his part.
Yeah, it is a payoff in the most technical sense of the word but my that is not the problem here. The problem is that I can hardly imagine anyone making a boss for weeks if not months on end only to then give the boss a crippling weakness to holding R1. It quite literary defeats the whole point of even having a boss. Hell it pretty much negates the whole point behind the scadutree blessings you cannot push negation past 100% anyway.

If this is the intended design than what is not intended? If basically turning off the boss is OK then what would it take for it to not be OK?
This was a thing in Dark Souls 1 as well, Gwyn being weak to parry for instance
A very bad example as From directly acknowledged that Gwyn being trivialized was a unintended consequence of them trying to make him beatable by all builds. It was a mistake and nothing more.
 

Anonona

Learned
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Oct 24, 2019
Messages
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A very bad example as From directly acknowledged that Gwyn being trivialized was a unintended consequence of them trying to make him beatable by all builds. It was a mistake and nothing more.
A source for that

https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/7...esign-works-translation-npcs-and-monst/98089/

Miyazaki: Although as far as the game is concerned I think we could have done a little more with the character. He's the last boss and the concept of the character was to have the player use all the skills they'd developed through the game. I wanted them to have to use everything they've learned in order to beat him. The reason that he uses such a simple single sword fighting style stems from this concept, but in the end we ended up taking a different direction.

Waragai: Parry, parry, parry. Haha

Satake: Yup parry, parry. Haha

Miyazaki: That's the truth… I regret that the fight turned out this way… That's probably about it as far as it goes for bosses, of course there are other designs that I really like, the iron golem for example, is a great large powerful enemy.
 

Cheesedragon117

Educated
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You only have to stagger a Furnace Golem once to kill it if you have a Furnace Pot ready to toss into its head as it's recovering from the critical hit. And even if you don't, the number of stance breaks can be brought down with the Dagger Talisman and a weapon with high crit.

Hell Swarm once again spreading misinformation to find fault in ER's design, even when it's completely unessecary. I have much more problems with this DLC than basegame ER, so good criticism should be easy pickings. Instead he wants to get lost in the woods with this strange abstract argument about objective/subjective difficulty. Reminds me of Dick Dastardly and his incessant urge to cheat, even when his race car is parked right in front of the finish line.

The main thing I agree with so far is the view that these games are becoming glorified boss rushes with non-existent exploration.
 

Strange Fellow

Peculiar
Patron
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Messages
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Using a shield is now some cheat mode that "turns off the bosses' ability to deal damage"? Do you motherfuckers listen to yourselves sometimes.
 

Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,652
Using a shield is now some cheat mode that "turns off the bosses' ability to deal damage"? Do you motherfuckers listen to yourselves sometimes.
Do you? Because last time I checked the finger shield can literary turns off Radhan damage output.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,081
You don't even know what staggering a furnace golem is.
It's not the first one but you get the idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyltQXYFGoY
Wonder why you think it would be something special...

It quite literary defeats the whole point of even having a boss. Hell it pretty much negates the whole point behind the scadutree blessings you cannot push negation past 100% anyway.
Why do you think most people go for big shield builds? What's their endgame fantasy? Isn't it to be an unbreakable wall? I'd say the last boss delivers in spades towards that fantasy. Having people emoing boss is too hard while it did nothing to them had to be the cherry on top.

And 1 build not needing scadutree doesn't make it useless. Cut the crap with these random armchair designer faults you desperately try to find in the game...
 
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Silverfish

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
3,712
I swear to god at this point From could put out a boss that literary turns off your machine

Assuming their next game is Elden Ring 2, that'd be my favorite boss tbh.

From refuses to implement normal difficulty options, therefore they have to set the "optimal" fixed difficulty, which is obviously an impossible and utterly imbecilic goal

What's weird is that they've actually done that with the Covenant of Champions in Dark Souls 2 and then chose to ignore that idea for all subsequent games besides Sekiro.

Instead they should be easing back the combat difficulty and start increasing the exploration difficulty. Cut the bonfires in half and start making it dangerous to explore places instead of over the top enemies. Add arrow traps able to kill a player who doesn't pay attention. Make drop off points a risk/reward thing and not an excuse to have a jumping puzzle. Make the player act like an adventurer instead of a video game character doing a boss rush.

Sen's Fortress, but the size of Limgrave would be the best game they've ever made.
 

Cheesedragon117

Educated
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Florida
Honestly, with the amount of lore-fuckery already present in the DLC, I wish From had come up with a bullshit excuse for you to be unable to bring the Legendary Spirit Ashes with you to the Land of Shadow.

Your average Fextra-browsing, guide-reading player is barely aware that other Summons aside from Mimic Tear and Tiche even exist.
 

Child of Malkav

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This is ultimately the problem. The game gives you tools expecting you to use some of them but people stacking all of them are breaking the game and then complaining it's too easy. It's like having a bag of donuts, eating them all and going "gee, I sure wish they gave me more donuts!" when someone else eats one a day and gets a richer experience. Any one can stuff 3 donuts in their face in a minute but you're missing the entire point of eating delicious food by doing it. And From are obsessed with making multi phase boss fights to up the difficulty and it does nothing to stop the problem players and does a lot to completely shut the game out for the majority of the audience.

A lot of problems are coming from streamers autistically grinding From games into the ground and demanding more 'content' to grind also being on the marketing team. It completely warps an action adventure into a boss rush where you have to burst things down or you end up with viewers bored you're still on the same boss/mod/whatever. From cannot cut these people off for marketing reasons but bowing to them and other faggots has destroyed any sense of "hard but fair" and adventure in these games. Frankly if Elden Ring was released along side Dark souls 1, no one would have played ER simply because it's so incredibly boring for the majority of it's play time.
Incredibly well said.
 

Stoned Ape

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The belly of the whale
So, I finished the final fight while cosplaying as Radahn...

ELDEN-RING-16-07-2024-19-38-52.png


I beat every boss (including all of the optional bosses) and the only time I actually brought my Tear out was for Gayus the Albanauric Pigfucker because I was completely stuck. Apart from that, I exclusively used the NPC summons when available apart from a couple of times I tried the Dragon Priestess Waifu on field bosses (she seems utterly useless to be honest, hits like a dry pool noodle and dies as soon as someone notices her). I had 20/20 skudmissle blessings at he end (had to use a guide to get the last couple from the final area), and 9/10 spirit ash upgrades.

The most difficult boss for me was the Guts cosplayer at the beginning. My least favourite was Gaius. I only killed the first two 2 furnace golems and the one in the Rauh Ruins near the Rot den because I found dealing with them tedious (even with the furnace pots).

My favourite boss fight was Bayle (Igon is great). My favourite areas were Saint Trina's crack and the Rauh Ruins.

I enjoyed the NPC interactions, quest design was a bit iffy as some of the things you have to to to progress them are pretty unintuitive at times and I had to look up stuff twice (one for St Trina, once for Redmane Freja/Ansbach).

Worst enemy design goes to the paralyze sniper lampreys and the sniper Tree Shamans. Fuck those guys.

Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed the experience. The areas looked great and I found most of the boss fights more fun than I did those in the base game.
 
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Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,441
A very bad example as From directly acknowledged that Gwyn being trivialized was a unintended consequence of them trying to make him beatable by all builds.

Of course he is going to say shit like that, he has to give the corporate spiel.

I mean, the argument doesn't even make sense. Gwyn is already "beatable" by all builds. His answer has shit to do with the question, which is that Gwyn happens to be more "easily" beatable by a specific approach. If him being "trivalized" by parry was an "unintended" consequence, the error doesn't lie in him being "not beatable" by all builts. The error would be that he was unintentionally easier than they wanted him to be for one specific approach, unless his argument is that he was supposed to be trivial every which way (don't try to use the "lore" to argue that was indeed the intention. It's a retarded notion).

Of course, this "trivialize" shit is in itself a try hard meme, because last i checked parry is the "advanced" playstyle, so to say he can be "trivalized" with a technique the average player isn't actually comfortable in using is in itself already nonsensical:

https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls/comments/2tdxul/how_the_fuck_yo_you_guys_manage_to_parry_gwyn/

But more to the point, this argument flies in the face of what they are actually doing in the game. All builds you say? So how come the Revenant can be countered by a spell available only to faith users? How come some enemies are weaker to certain damage types, leaving out those who specialize in others? What if i'm fighting Rellana as a magic user? How come that's harder than someone whose stats can actually scale with a lighting infusion? Does that seem like "all" builds are equally valiable? How come some enemies are immune to bleed? What happens to bleed builds then?

Of course, i don't think the issue is with "builds", because last i checked there isn't a build that can't whip out a buckler if the occasion calls for it. So the argument actually is about playstyles. Most people just chose to do things only one way and they expect their way to be equally viable as all the others at all times, which to me doesn't seem possible even if the devs tried their best to make that happen (some approaches are bound to be better than others no matter what), and while for the most part they probably do in fact put effort in making sure different approaches can all be viable, i don't think that rules out the possibility they are intentionally favoring certain approaches as a means to add a "strategic" element to the game. It IS after all an RPG.

Now i'm not saying this is definitely what is going on some of the specifics being discussed (I.E., Radahn in the DLC). Maybe they actually fucked up with that i'll let you know once i get there. I'm just saying it's not beyond the realm of possibilities they didn't expect certain approaches to be more viable than others, because that was definitely the case for a lot of enemies in the base game. Are you telling me parry wasn't intentionally made to be the easier option against Commander Niall? Or the Godskin Noble? I mean really? Really? Remember the one you meet in that tight bridge? Are you telling me it wasn't intentional to shove a boss with relentless thrust attacks in a tight space with little room to strafe and circle around and NOT sort of beg the player to use parry? Especially when they gave the boss a move that seems designed specifically to land a parry very easily (that double slam he does with the hilt of his sword). Are you telling me they didn't design that obnoxious spear crystalian with parry as a counter in mind? You really think it was by accident that rolling is the literal worst option for that? Jump, jump, jump, *stab*. Jump, jump, jump, *stab*. You actually put yourself through the torture of having to deal with that nosense, when you can just parry that retardation and be done with it? And do you suppose whoever designed that stupid enemy didn't do that intentionally? All builds you say?
 

cvv

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I wish From had come up with a bullshit excuse for you to be unable to bring the Legendary Spirit Ashes with you to the Land of Shadow.

Your average Fextra-browsing, guide-reading player is barely aware that other Summons aside from Mimic Tear and Tiche even exist.
Very much this.

That stupid Mimic summon has been a fat drop of hydrochloric acid in my eye since I got him. Fucking Miya looking down his nose at noobs demanding an Easy Mode but then giving us a summon that can comfortably solo 95% of the content. And most people not even seeing anything wrong with it. What's even the fucking point by now, fuck this gay Earth seriously.
 
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Though I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have found Mimic Tear on my own. I only looked up where to get it because everyone was talking about it here, and I went very long without finding it so eventually curiosity won.
 

MasPingon

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If someone stuck with a shield build and it happened to pay off at the final boss it's not some design mistake or some cheese from his part.
Yeah, it is a payoff in the most technical sense of the word but my that is not the problem here. The problem is that I can hardly imagine anyone making a boss for weeks if not months on end only to then give the boss a crippling weakness to holding R1. It quite literary defeats the whole point of even having a boss. Hell it pretty much negates the whole point behind the scadutree blessings you cannot push negation past 100% anyway.
You really seem like you don't know what's your problem is.

Fingerprint shield is one of the most satisfying rewards you can get in FS games. After you get through god damn hell to navigate garbage dump, filled with powerful and annoying enemies, when you've come so far down you get this earie feeling you are not suppose to be there, after you make a series of impossible jumps into the the unholy pit, you find this incredible, almost godlike item. The discovery makes you feel like a freaking Indiana Jones. This is suppose to be this really special item. It's hard to find(if you are not spoiling things for yourself by watching "how to" videos on youtube or checking wiki) and it's very demending - you got to have 48 str and it's 28 weight. You found this shield made by Chaos impersonate(Readerless Fingers) in a dumpster and it's basically the only shield that helps you that much in a confrontation with an impostor of a holy god that Miquella is. What's the problem with that? It's kinda poetic to me.
 
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Hell Swarm

Learned
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Jun 16, 2023
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You only have to stagger a Furnace Golem once to kill it if you have a Furnace Pot ready to toss into its head as it's recovering from the critical hit. And even if you don't, the number of stance breaks can be brought down with the Dagger Talisman and a weapon with high crit.

Hell Swarm once again spreading misinformation to find fault in ER's design, even when it's completely unessecary. I have much more problems with this DLC than basegame ER, so good criticism should be easy pickings. Instead he wants to get lost in the woods with this strange abstract argument about objective/subjective difficulty. Reminds me of Dick Dastardly and his incessant urge to cheat, even when his race car is parked right in front of the finish line.

The main thing I agree with so far is the view that these games are becoming glorified boss rushes with non-existent exploration.
"If you have this very specific build you can one shot the golems" Great. Now tell me why I should be playing this very specific build instead of one I actually enjoy?
Why do you think most people go for big shield builds? What's their endgame fantasy? Isn't it to be an unbreakable wall? I'd say the last boss delivers in spades towards that fantasy. Having people emoing boss is too hard while it did nothing to them had to be the cherry on top.
Most people don't even use shields. That is why the finger print shield discussion is happening at all. As a shield user I've very rarely ran into any one using shields in any invasions or summons. Most people are using an offhand magic weapon or two handing a giant hammer/sword and running around naked. These people could not beat Radahn that way so they respeced into a poke build and beat him by holding L1. Which means there is a problem with the designers expectations and the people playing it. Namely that the designers are no longer designing bosses for the majority of their player base but for very specific overly loud and autistic players. Which isn't a problem when it's like Midir and it's optional. But it is a problem when it's additional money and it's the main boss of your £40 expansion. I expect the final boss to be a challenge. I don't expect it to be a disco with unreadable attacks.
If someone stuck with a shield build and it happened to pay off at the final boss it's not some design mistake or some cheese from his part.
Yeah, it is a payoff in the most technical sense of the word but my that is not the problem here. The problem is that I can hardly imagine anyone making a boss for weeks if not months on end only to then give the boss a crippling weakness to holding R1. It quite literary defeats the whole point of even having a boss. Hell it pretty much negates the whole point behind the scadutree blessings you cannot push negation past 100% anyway.
You really seem like you don't know what's your problem is.

Fingerprint shield is one of the most satisfying rewards you can get in FS games. After you get through god damn hell to navigate garbage dump, filled with powerful and annoying enemies, when you've come so far down you get this earie feeling you are not suppose to be there, after you make a series of impossible jumps into the the unholy pit, you find this incredible, almost godlike item. The discovery makes you feel like a freaking Indiana Jones. This is suppose to be this really special item. It's hard to find(if you are not spoiling things for yourself by watching "how to" videos on youtube or checking wiki) and it's very demending - you got to have 48 str and it's 28 weight. You found this shield made by Chaos impersonate(Readerless Fingers) in a dumpster and it's basically the only shield that helps you that much in a confrontation with an impostor of a holy god that Miquella is. What's the problem with that? For me it's kinda poetic.
It's also one of the hardest to find items in the game hidden in a secret dungeon behind a boss with no hint of a hidden door there, behind one of the worst jumping puzzles From ever made. So it's not exactly an organic item most players will have unless they looked it up.
 

Anonona

Learned
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Oct 24, 2019
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634
Of course, this "trivialize" shit is in itself a try hard meme, because last i checked parry is the "advanced" playstyle, so to say he can be "trivalized" with a technique the average player isn't actually comfortable in using is in itself already nonsensical:
Ironically enough, I would argue is the opposite. While the timing is more strict than a dodge and it takes time to get to learn parry timing, once you do it pretty much nullifies bosses that can be parried completely in most Souls, specially when the AI insist on doing the same attacks due to players position among other things . Contrast with Sekiro, DMC and other actions games were parries do not interrupt enemies attacks in most circumstances so you still need to learn to deal with the whole chain of attacks, or if they do interrupt the enemy, bosses usually have unique attacks as answers, consumes resources or the timing is even more strict. From knows how strong it is in all Souls and that is why in ER you need multiple parries to succesfully open up an enemy for a criticial, and I'll argue it is still relatively speaking not too hard, specially with the new parry related AoWs (though at least those cost FP).

The Sekiro deflection tear is actually closer on how parry is implemented in the majority of action games. I wish it was a core mechanic, is really fun. Should also damage posture like Sekiro too and would mean all enemies and bosses could be parried.

I mean, the argument doesn't even make sense. Gwyn is already "beatable" by all builds.
I think the idea is more that he didn't intend for a single strategy to trivialize a boss nor the rest be much worse in comparison. As quoted in my post, he wanted a boss that made players use all their tools at their disposal, not to be absolutelly destroyed by 1 strategy and the rest have a normal fight.

But more to the point, this argument flies in the face of what they are actually doing in the game. All builds you say? So how come the Revenant can be countered by a spell available only to faith users? How come some enemies are weaker to certain damage types, leaving out those who specialize in others? What if i'm fighting Rellana as a magic user? How come that's harder than someone whose stats can actually scale with a lighting infusion? Does that seem like "all" builds are equally valiable? How come some enemies are immune to bleed? What happens to bleed builds then?
The presence of weaknesses doesn't really mean that the majority of those enemies are completely shutdown if you use their weaknesses nor that there is a huge discrepancy of difficulty between different builds. There will be exceptional cases, like the sleep status effect with some enemies and the like, but in general, using lightning with Rellana for example, doesn't mean the challenge is gone (unless you go for a "extreme burst" or "one-hit kill" build to skip phases), but the fight will clearly be easier. DMC3 had elemental weaknesses, using the weapon with the elemental advantage didn't automatically made fights extremely easy, but still gave a clear and significant advantage.

Also in case of Renalla, magic users have access to spell with physcal and fire damage, as well as frostbite.

It is not so much about builds not being viable, but how certain playstyles, as you call them, literally mean that you practically don't need to learn nor improve on the boss. Now if this is good design or not, is another question. From has always been all about "choose your own challenge", so maybe those options are there precisely to allow for easier gameplay styles
 
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Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
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57,441
Failing a deflection in Sekiro is not as devastating as missing a parry in Souls though. The reward is high because the risk is high. It has always been this way and only looks "trivial" from a distance. When you are doing it yourself it's another thing entirely. If that wasn't the case everybody would be using parry and nobody would have ever bothered with rolling once this one "trick" had become known.

For all the complaining out there about how unfair the bosses are in this DLC, i'm not seeing many people taking the parry route, and you are not gonna convince me that's because it isn't their "preference" (what the vast majority of people "prefer" to beat the boss and if there was an easy way to do it they would take it). It's because it isn't actually as easy as the "pros" make it look. And it's also completely false that it doesn't require "learning". Timings for parry vary with each attack and recognizing the attack in time to perform the parry is as tricky as you'd expect. Hell, one of the things that often tripped me up the most in Sekiro was learning to recognize whether i was supposed to do a stomp or a milkiri counter. That too took time and it wasn't simple to recognize which was what without some practice.

BTW, stopping combos in their track is actually a thing in Sekiro as well. It's the reason why aggression is rewarded in the game. The more you press on the boss, the more he'll default to a select number of reponses meaning there's less to learn. It was a viable tactic when i started the game. I beat the second phase in Lady Butterfly without even seeing a single one of her "illusions" simply by locking her in a constant barrage of attacks, to which most of the time she responded with that kick combo of hers. It was only later, once i become more proficient with the game that i allowed bosses to let their combos play out in full.

With all that said, it's still obvious to me that FromSoft was actually begging the player to use parry a lot of the times. There's too many situations of enemies having very OBVIOUS tells in their attacks. Meanwhile, there were enemies that were actually quite tricky to parry, like the Godskin Apostle, or the Black Knight Assassin. There is no rule that dictates parry = easy. Sometimes it's the easy option, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes they make it the easy option because the roll option is hard. Sometimes the roll option is the easier one, and sometimes they are both hard. To me, it felt like they were just exploring all possibilities and leaving no stones left unturned in terms of challening the player in figuring out the best solution to the various problems they were being subjected to.

Lastly, i don't think FromSoft has ever had any interest in terms of emulating action games like DMC and i sure hope they continue that way. I do not buy this notion there is a way action games "ought" to do things, least of all with using DMC as the metric to use.
 

Lyric Suite

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Oh, one thing. Anybody cheering about the inclusion of the Deflection Hardtear should take a moment to consider what it is they are actually clamoring. That's because once they put that thing in the game they had to include combos that gave you a reason to use it. Things like, you know, the endless helicoper combos and other things of that nature. The Horned Warrior is a case in point. Awesome that you can just deflect all of his attacks, isn't it? And yet, nobody is talking about the poor people who prefer rolling and now are stuck with that shit, same as the Curseblade guy. Now why didn't they make rolling as viable? The same goes, you guessed it, Rellana:



In case you want to see a better rapresentation of it:



How is it fair that this is easy to do like this, but rolling is so hard? Aren't all "builds" supposed be viable?
 

Anonona

Learned
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Messages
634
or all the complaining out there about how unfair the bosses are in this DLC, i'm not seeing many people taking the parry route, and you are not gonna convince me that's because it isn't their "preference" (what the vast majority of people "prefer" to beat the boss and if there was an easy way to do it they would take it). It's because it isn't actually as easy as the "pros" make it look.
Then why do you have recommended so many times people to learn to parry enemies when they complain about difficulty? I assumed you recommended it because it made the enemies easier, as you did so when people complained about difficulty, as you don't have to deal with their "bullshit" as you yourself has said multiple times. And if the player had problems, then why recommend a "pro" move to someone that is struggling?

And it's also completely false that it doesn't require "learning
While the timing is more strict than a dodge and it takes time to get to learn parry timing
Please, take time to read and understand what others are writing.

BTW, stopping combos in their track is actually a thing in Sekiro as well. It's the reason why aggression is rewarded in the game. The more you press on the boss, the more he'll default to a select number of reponses meaning there's less to learn. It was a viable tactic when i started the game. I beat the second phase in Lady Butterfly without even seeing a single one of her "illusions" simply by locking her in a constant barrage of attacks, to which most of the time she responded with that kick combo of hers. It was only later, once i become more proficient with the game that i allowed bosses to let their combos play out in full.
Doesn't contradict anything I said. In fact you are describing how good is the offensive gameplay on Sekiro and how it is rewarded more than ER. Which, yeah, is a good element as it rewards learning bosses to be able to push them and pressure them. Even ER tried the same with the posture system

With all that said, it's still obvious to me that FromSoft was actually begging the player to use parry a lot of the times.
So is it a strategy to make bosses easier or just for "pros" to defeat enemy faster?

here's too many situations of enemies having very OBVIOUS tells in their attacks. Meanwhile, there were enemies that were actually quite tricky to parry, like the Godskin Apostle, or the Black Knight Assassin. There is no rule that dictates parry = easy. Sometimes it's the easy option, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes they make it the easy option because the roll option is hard. Sometimes the roll option is the easier one, and sometimes they are both hard. To me, it felt like they were just exploring all possibilities and leaving no stones left unturned in terms of challening the player in figuring out the best solution to the various problems they were being subjected to.
So with this description, I gather it is just another option, with is advantages and disadvantages, not a "pro" option.

Lastly, i don't think FromSoft has ever had any interest in terms of emulating action games like DMC and i sure hope they continue that way. I do not buy this notion there is a way action games "ought" to do things, least of all with using DMC as the metric to use.
Well, they had emulated many thing from other actions games already. Sekiro's parry is similar to DMC Royal Guard. but adapted to a "stamina" based system. Nioh has multiple types of parries and works great. Also why not DMC? Despite their differences in design, there are many elements of DMC that would feel at home in a Souls games (attacks being able to clash, timed attacks, delayed attack chains, animation cancelling, etc). Very short sighted of you, DMC is actually pretty fucking important for modern action games, it created a whole genre by itself and was very influential for all kind of games, like it or not.

h, one thing. Anybody cheering about the inclusion of the Deflection Hardtear should take a moment to consider what it is they are actually clamoring. That's because once they put that thing in the game they had to includes combos that gave you a reason to use it. Things like, you know, the endless helicoper combos and other things of that nature. The Horned Warrior is a case in point. Awesome that you can just deflect all of his attacks, isn't it? And yet, nobody is talking about the poor people who prefer rolling and now are stuck with that shit, same as the Curseblade guy
Nah, not buying it. Can use the same argument to critize parrying, knockback, poisebreaking, dodge AoW, etc in the same manner as a way to "justify" the existance of those "helicopter" combos (again, the "bullshit" you recommend parrying for). Guarding is even better to deal with long combos, should they remove guarding?. Also, yeah, people have already put forth that, if bosses and enemies have long ass combos, we should have Bloodborne dodge + Sekiro's parry, of course many are happy with it. Literally make ER2 with the same type of bosses and enemies but those mechanics as default and it would be fucking great.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
1,724
Guarding is even better to deal with long combos, should they remove guarding?.
A lot of the combos in the DLC will break your guard unless you know the specific points you can combo break them to do a guard counter, which immediately gets a stagger.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,441
Then why do you have recommended so many times people to learn to parry enemies when they complain about difficulty? I assumed you recommended it because it made the enemies easier

Easier or more efficient, but in either case relative to the alternative.

Obviously i didn't recommed it because it trivializes enemies. If such an option actually existed you wouldn't need me to tell you about it. It would take two seconds for people to figure out and abuse.

It goes without saying parry still takes practice and skill to pull it off, but whether it is worth the trouble depends on the situation, and sometimes the game seems to deliberatly suggest that option would be a good one to take.

Literally make ER2 with the same bosses but those mechanics as default and it would be fucking great.

Matter of opinion. I don't want FromSoft combat to turn into turbo twitch arcade mode. I have no taste for such a thing and i very much prefer their current approach. Even Sekiro didn't go that way, not by a long shot, reguardless of how it may "look" superficially.
 

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