From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Multidirectional]

Also why not DMC? Despite their differences in design, there are many elements of DMC that would feel at home in a Souls games (attacks being able to clash, timed attacks, delayed attack chains, animation cancelling, etc). Very short sighted of you, DMC is actually pretty fucking important for modern action games, it created a whole genre by itself and was very influential for all kind of games, like it or not.

Pretty sure there's zero chance he actually played, or will ever play DMC. Probably same for other third person melee action games that aren't made by FS. Or aren't inspired by them. From reading discussions elsewhere it seems there's quite a few people like that, who didn't experience this genre until From Soft became a big thing. To them FS way is the normal way so they won't see things same way as those of us who have experienced other melee action games before getting into Souls.

Just saying these protracted arguments are probably a waste of time.

 

[Lyric Suite]

It's more than that with me i actively disliked action games until i tried Dark Souls.

This video for instance is supposed to try to sell you how great the combat in DMC3 actually is but for me it does the opposite:



Part of it is the flash, part of it is this aspect of complexity in performing the action which just doesn't have any lure for me.

The one thing i found impressive about Sekiro is that they came up with a different combat system that still had the same qualities i liked about Souls. I very much doubt FormSoft is oblivious about what they are doing here.

 

[Multidirectional]

I don't find performing actions in DMC to be complex at all, complexity comes from deciding which of actions to chain together. Anyway, it's some shit video. It wouldn't draw me into the game either, it's just some combo tryhard rendering enemy completely useless. Anyone who would try using a video like that to sell somebody on the game is a retard. It's impossible to know how it actually feels to play the game from watching that. It's often impossible to know how fun the game is from watching any gameplay video, actually. I sure as shit didn't know until I tried it. I was put off Nioh 2 by videos initially too, shit seemed way too visually busy, especially since it was showed off with Effects set to High. Then I played it and it became one of my favorite action games ever.

 

[Bloodeyes]

I've noticed a few changes in PvE'rs since the DLC. The first is that most of them have leveled vigor finally. I used to frequently get base vigor or 40 vigor players at level 200. Now I'm playing 168 and most people have 50 - 60. Greatshields are another thing, but not just having shields but having shield builds. As in, having leveled endurance and using the appropriate talismans to improve stamina and guard boost.

Its not like shield dudes were rare before, but they are in every party now. My piercing fang iron greatsword and my kick lordsworn's greatsword were used occasionally before the DLC. Now its almost every invasion.

This is a good thing. From put 70 shields in the game. Most starting characters begin with a weapon and shield. Blocking and guard countering are core gameplay mechanics that you're expected to use. This isn't Bloodborne.

Edit: To be honest I rarely block, and when I equip a shield I forget its there. But even I am improving with this. I used a fire a affinity redmane greatshield quite a bit in my playthrough to absolutely shit on fire knights with guard counters. I had to stop using it when I respecced to pure faith but it was a neat tool to have it my kit.

 

[Suicidal]

I don't find performing actions in DMC to be complex at all, complexity comes from deciding which of actions to chain together. Anyway, it's some shit video. It wouldn't draw me into the game either, it's just some combo tryhard rendering enemy completely useless. Anyone who would try using a video like that to sell somebody on the game is a retard. It's impossible to know how it actually feels to play the game from watching that. It's often impossible to know how fun the game is from watching any gameplay video, actually. I sure as shit didn't know until I tried it. I was put off Nioh 2 by videos initially too, shit seemed way too visually busy, especially since it was showed off with Effects set to High. Then I played it and it became one of my favorite action games ever.

Same here. When I watched Nioh videos I though it was some ugly, budget Dark Souls clone. Then I actually played it and ended up liking it a lot more than any Souls game and Nioh 2 sealed the deal.

 

[abija]

Most people don't even use shields. That is why the finger print shield discussion is happening at all. As a shield user I've very rarely ran into any one using shields in any invasions or summons. Most people are using an offhand magic weapon or two handing a giant hammer/sword and running around naked. These people could not beat Radahn that way so they respeced into a poke build and beat him by holding L1. Which means there is a problem with the designers expectations and the people playing it. Namely that the designers are no longer designing bosses for the majority of their player base but for very specific overly loud and autistic players. Which isn't a problem when it's like Midir and it's optional. But it is a problem when it's additional money and it's the main boss of your £40 expansion. I expect the final boss to be a challenge. I don't expect it to be a disco with unreadable attacks.

You are throwing a hissy fit just because your build was hard to play at a boss. Stop being a bitch. Not sure you even realize it but what you ask for is ruining fun in the name of "balance". Fuck you and your ilk.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I don't find performing actions in DMC to be complex at all, complexity comes from deciding which of actions to chain together. Anyway, it's some shit video. It wouldn't draw me into the game either, it's just some combo tryhard rendering enemy completely useless. Anyone who would try using a video like that to sell somebody on the game is a retard. It's impossible to know how it actually feels to play the game from watching that. It's often impossible to know how fun the game is from watching any gameplay video, actually. I sure as shit didn't know until I tried it. I was put off Nioh 2 by videos initially too, shit seemed way too visually busy, especially since it was showed off with Effects set to High. Then I played it and it became one of my favorite action games ever.

Same here. When I watched Nioh videos I though it was some ugly, budget Dark Souls clone. Then I actually played it and ended up liking it a lot more than any Souls game and Nioh 2 sealed the deal.

I tried Nioh 1. Not a bad game but i also wasn't particularly impressed by the combat system. Of course, the reason i quit is that i was told the game doesn't actually become "good" until NG++, which, while the idea of meshing Japofag action games with the Diablo system is intringuing in principle, i don't think they should have inherited the worst sins of that system. The game being a cakewalk in NG is the reason i can't play Diablo-likes anymore in the first place. I got better things to do with my time than replay a game three times over before it gets "good".

I'll definitely try Nioh 2 at some point though.

 

[cvv]

This video for instance is supposed to try to sell you how great the combat in DMC3 actually is but for me it does the opposite:

Yeah, same for me years ago. I've even tried DMC for the refund period to make sure it's really not for me. It REALLY wasn't for me. Same for other non-souls action stuff I tried like Bayonetta or Nier.

I wonder if I enjoyed the classic God of War games, I liked the 2018 game a lot but that one is very much souls-inspired. I also plan to try Metal Gear Revengeance.

However since discovering DS I did fall in love with metroidvanias and very much liked all the Darksiders games too. But I still love soulslikes or souls-inspired games (Nioh) the best.

 

[Multidirectional]

I tried Nioh 1. Not a bad game but i also wasn't particularly impressed by the combat system. Of course, the reason i quit is that i was told the game doesn't actually become "good" until NG++, which, while the idea of meshing Japofag action games with the Diablo system is intringuing in principle, i don't think they should have inherited the worst sins of that system. The game being a cakewalk in NG is the reason i can't play Diablo-likes anymore in the first place.

Or you could've tried equipping a less noob friendly weapon than Odachi if you were finding the game too easy. Not really that familiar with weapon balance in the first game, but I definitely recall having a much tougher time with it when I started with dual swords, before I switched to Odachi and difficulty went way down. And from videos you posted in that thread it looked to me like you were playing it the most boring way possible. That looked more like some budget Souls gameplay than Nioh to me. My last run up to highest difficulty in N2 I was switching weapons every NG cycle and that made even NG+, which was a cakewalk with my first two characters that used same weapon all the way to the end, reasonably challenging. Though yes, NG++ onwards it's definitely more fun than NG+. NG, however, I wouldn't say is easy in Nioh 2, at least not first half of it or so, while you are still gathering your toys. But then maybe I'm just not as good as you are.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Obviously i didn't recommed it because it trivializes enemies. If such an option actually existed you wouldn't need me to tell you about it. It would take two seconds for people to figure out and abuse.

So does stacking buffs.

Also why not DMC? Despite their differences in design, there are many elements of DMC that would feel at home in a Souls games (attacks being able to clash, timed attacks, delayed attack chains, animation cancelling, etc). Very short sighted of you, DMC is actually pretty fucking important for modern action games, it created a whole genre by itself and was very influential for all kind of games, like it or not.

Pretty sure there's zero chance he actually played, or will ever play DMC. Probably same for other third person melee action games that aren't made by FS. Or aren't inspired by them. From reading discussions elsewhere it seems there's quite a few people like that, who didn't experience this genre until From Soft became a big thing. To them FS way is the normal way so they won't see things same way as those of us who have experienced other melee action games before getting into Souls.

Just saying these protracted arguments are probably a waste of time.

The ironic thing is DMC1 is far closer to a souls game than anything that came after it. You can see a lot of the progress and feel of DMC1 made it's way into Demon and Dark souls. Not the movement complexity but the way the game progresses and enemies act. It's hard for people to see how much influence failed RE4 DMC had on the industry and always credit DMC3 for an impact it didn't have.

It's more than that with me i actively disliked action games until i tried Dark Souls.

Why couldn't you say this months ago because it translates to "I don't like action games. I do everything I can to invalidate them". Which is what we've been saying for months now. From combat isn't the problem, you not liking the genre and finding ways to avoid playing it is. You would be happier if Elden ring had a menu system (and it practically does for you).

I don't find performing actions in DMC to be complex at all, complexity comes from deciding which of actions to chain together. Anyway, it's some shit video. It wouldn't draw me into the game either, it's just some combo tryhard rendering enemy completely useless. Anyone who would try using a video like that to sell somebody on the game is a retard. It's impossible to know how it actually feels to play the game from watching that. It's often impossible to know how fun the game is from watching any gameplay video, actually. I sure as shit didn't know until I tried it. I was put off Nioh 2 by videos initially too, shit seemed way too visually busy, especially since it was showed off with Effects set to High. Then I played it and it became one of my favorite action games ever.

Same here. When I watched Nioh videos I though it was some ugly, budget Dark Souls clone. Then I actually played it and ended up liking it a lot more than any Souls game and Nioh 2 sealed the deal.

Nioh is a budget dark souls clone but it does enough original stuff to be worth playing. The clones have long surpassed the original in complexity and depth but From are like Pokemon now. Don't change anything or you might lose sales.

Most people don't even use shields. That is why the finger print shield discussion is happening at all. As a shield user I've very rarely ran into any one using shields in any invasions or summons. Most people are using an offhand magic weapon or two handing a giant hammer/sword and running around naked. These people could not beat Radahn that way so they respeced into a poke build and beat him by holding L1. Which means there is a problem with the designers expectations and the people playing it. Namely that the designers are no longer designing bosses for the majority of their player base but for very specific overly loud and autistic players. Which isn't a problem when it's like Midir and it's optional. But it is a problem when it's additional money and it's the main boss of your £40 expansion. I expect the final boss to be a challenge. I don't expect it to be a disco with unreadable attacks.

You are throwing a hissy fit just because your build was hard to play at a boss. Stop being a bitch. Not sure you even realize it but what you ask for is ruining fun in the name of "balance". Fuck you and your ilk.

If you read the thread you might have noticed I was using a great shield for the DLC. I've always used shields and used a great one for the DLC since I usually use medium ones. There isn't any fun turtling behind a great shield and poking a boss to death as it attempts to give you a seizure from particle spam. And frankly people like you shouldn't be allowed oxygen. The amount of people finding Radahn fun VS being annoyed by him and wanting to skip him with a poke build says all you need to know about the state of the DLC. It's clearly not fun or people wouldn't be using the I win button to skip past him. An I win button that requires getting an item that people have complained about having to get for years. So "it's so fun you have to do the least popular thing in the entire base game to avoid doing it" is probably not a ringing endorsement for your boss design.

Yeah, same for me years ago. I've even tried DMC for the refund period to make sure it's really not for me. It REALLY wasn't for me. Same for other non-souls action stuff I tried like Bayonetta or Nier.

Which DMC did you try? They have different styles but if you don't like those games you probably wouldn't like any of them. The first is a bit different to the rest as it's more adventure based but it's not that different.

I wonder if I enjoyed the classic God of War games, I liked the 2018 game a lot but that one is very much souls-inspired. I also plan to try Metal Gear Revengeance.

The originals are DMC with the edges smoothed off. Leaning into dynasty warriors level of combat at times. If you don't like DMC you won't like Revengeance, it's right in the mix with Bayo and DMC. The cutting mechanic is the only real addition and it's not enough to change how the game functions. Worth a try to refund but I wouldn't expect you to like it if you don't like the rest of the genre. Good on you for trying it though, always good to try new games.

However since discovering DS I did fall in love with metroidvanias and very much liked all the Darksiders games too. But I still love soulslikes or souls-inspired games (Nioh) the best.

Darksiders leans more into Zelda doesn't it? Maybe try Okami, it's furry weeb zelda as I'm aware. Very much in the same style as Darksiders 1.

 

[cvv]

Which DMC did you try?

DMC 5. I don't think any of the previous games even came out on PC (don't own any console, never have).

 

[Lyric Suite]

I tried Nioh 1. Not a bad game but i also wasn't particularly impressed by the combat system. Of course, the reason i quit is that i was told the game doesn't actually become "good" until NG++, which, while the idea of meshing Japofag action games with the Diablo system is intringuing in principle, i don't think they should have inherited the worst sins of that system. The game being a cakewalk in NG is the reason i can't play Diablo-likes anymore in the first place.

Or you could've tried equipping a less noob friendly weapon than Odachi if you were finding the game too easy. Not really that familiar with weapon balance in the first game, but I definitely recall having a much tougher time with it when I started with dual swords, before I switched to Odachi and difficulty went way down. And from videos you posted in that thread it looked to me like you were playing the game the most boring way possible. That looked more like some budged Souls gameplay than Nioh to me. My last run up to highest difficulty in N2 I was switching weapons every NG cycle and that made even NG+, which was a cakewalk with my previous two characters that played same weapon all the way to the end, reasonably challenging.

Well, how was i supposed to know the Odachi was the n00b weapon. I picked it because i liked the look and was basically everywhere.

Anyway, i got the strong impression Nioh 2 is the one i need to play so i finished it NG in Nion 1 and left it at that. No point invensting in that until NG++ when the second is the one to go.

 

[Strange Fellow]

The clones have long surpassed the original in complexity and depth.

But not in level design, never in level design.

 

[Stoned Ape]

An I win button that requires getting an item that people have complained about having to get for years. So "it's so fun you have to do the least popular thing in the entire base game to avoid doing it" is probably not a ringing endorsement for your boss design.

You can easily use the Black Steel Greatshield to trivialise the final boss, too. It's really easy to find in the DLC if you do a minimal attempt at exploration, 100% physical plus 84% holy resist or 95% physical and 100% holy with the right infusion. I didn't even try the Fingerprint shield against him in the end.

 

[Anonona]

DMC 5. I don't think any of the previous games even came out on PC (don't own any console, never have).

There is a DMC HD collection for PC that has DMC 1-3. DMC 2 is garbage, so you can skip it. 4 is in PC too.

I'll say it probably was a bad idea to start with 5. Similar to ER, DMC5 is the accumulation of past games mechanics and designs, as well as a shift in certain designs choices (more linear levels with less secret to get you into combat fast). It even uses enemies of past games as a tribute due to it being the final chapter. Starting with DMC 1 is the best option as it helps to ease you into the gameplay style. It also is different from what came after, with a bigger focus on exploring and horror, and it stands very well as it's own thing in the saga.

Also you could give Ninja Gaiden a spin (there is a collection on PC). While of the same genre, NG is very unique and focus on killing enemies fast without letting yourself open instead of long combos. Can also help you appreciate the bits of "NG DNA" that is present in Nioh games.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Which DMC did you try?

DMC 5. I don't think any of the previous games even came out on PC (don't own any console, never have).

DMC HD collection is on steam, which is 1-3's remaster and pretty solid, 4 had a stand alone release.

The clones have long surpassed the original in complexity and depth.

But not in level design, never in level design.

Getting fucking close with how empty the world is and how close the bonfires are now.

An I win button that requires getting an item that people have complained about having to get for years. So "it's so fun you have to do the least popular thing in the entire base game to avoid doing it" is probably not a ringing endorsement for your boss design.

You can easily use the Black Steel Greatshield to trivialise the final boss, too. It's really easy to find in the DLC if you do a minimal attempt at exploration, 100% physical plus 84% holy resist or 95% physical and 100% holy with the right infusion. I didn't even try the Fingerprint shield against him in the end.

I don't have a problem with using the black steel greatshield but that's not what we're seeing. The greatshield meme build is specifically the finger print shield people discuss, not a generic great shield. Which is why it's the 'I win button' and a meme to get it rather than finding a useful tool. I used the erd tree great shield I'd got for a joke build in the arenas and it worked pretty well.

There is a DMC HD collection for PC that has DMC 1-3. 2 is garbage, so you can skip it. 4 is in PC too.

I played through them all on PC and had no issues. Solid FPS and no obvious glitches. There maybe stuff not perfect but it's not anything that breaks the games in any of my 4 full play throughs.

 

[Multidirectional]

Well, how was i supposed to know the Odachi was the n00b weapon. I picked it because i liked the look and was basically everywhere.

I might've mentioned it in the thread.

Anyway, i got the strong impression Nioh 2 is the one i need to play so i finished it NG in Nion 1 and left it at that. No point invensting in that until NG++ when the second is the one to go.

I did tell you to go straight for Nioh 2.

 

[abija]

If you read the thread you might have noticed I was using a great shield for the DLC. I've always used shields and used a great one for the DLC since I usually use medium ones. There isn't any fun turtling behind a great shield and poking a boss to death as it attempts to give you a seizure from particle spam. And frankly people like you shouldn't be allowed oxygen. The amount of people finding Radahn fun VS being annoyed by him and wanting to skip him with a poke build says all you need to know about the state of the DLC. It's clearly not fun or people wouldn't be using the I win button to skip past him. An I win button that requires getting an item that people have complained about having to get for years. So "it's so fun you have to do the least popular thing in the entire base game to avoid doing it" is probably not a ringing endorsement for your boss design.

So you don't like shield gameplay but you used it? What a bitch...

While you seem to have done it (and probably found some reddit style circlejerk with more people like you), you don't know the actual amount of people that said fuck it and went for the I win to skip. And NONE of the things you mentioned in this thread are actually REQUIRED to beat the last boss. After finishing the game I checked some streamers and I saw a variety of kills (parry, 2h, etc). They weren't fast kills, they spent time learning him, you know, what people playing these games usually do instead of suffering with a build they hate to rush on forums and complain how much From sucks.

 

[Haplo]

I tried Nioh 1. Not a bad game but i also wasn't particularly impressed by the combat system. Of course, the reason i quit is that i was told the game doesn't actually become "good" until NG++, which, while the idea of meshing Japofag action games with the Diablo system is intringuing in principle, i don't think they should have inherited the worst sins of that system. The game being a cakewalk in NG is the reason i can't play Diablo-likes anymore in the first place.

Or you could've tried equipping a less noob friendly weapon than Odachi if you were finding the game too easy. Not really that familiar with weapon balance in the first game, but I definitely recall having a much tougher time with it when I started with dual swords, before I switched to Odachi and difficulty went way down. And from videos you posted in that thread it looked to me like you were playing the game the most boring way possible. That looked more like some budged Souls gameplay than Nioh to me. My last run up to highest difficulty in N2 I was switching weapons every NG cycle and that made even NG+, which was a cakewalk with my previous two characters that played same weapon all the way to the end, reasonably challenging.

Well, how was i supposed to know the Odachi was the n00b weapon. I picked it because i liked the look and was basically everywhere.

Anyway, i got the strong impression Nioh 2 is the one i need to play so i finished it NG in Nion 1 and left it at that. No point invensting in that until NG++ when the second is the one to go.

Personally I've found Nioh 2 combat too gimmicky and dropped it rather early.


Struggled a good deal with some bosses in Nioh 1 NG - perhaps I'm not as good as you.
But even if you do need NG++ for challenge, getting there is MUCH faster and less intimidating then it may seem.

Finishing NG + DLC already sets you more then halfway (?) trough NG+, if you skip side content. Most of content is actually skippable past NG.
I'm not one for repeated gameplays, in fact I almost never do, but I've actually reached NG++ in Nioh. Took very little time and effort after NG.

 

[Hell Swarm]

If you read the thread you might have noticed I was using a great shield for the DLC. I've always used shields and used a great one for the DLC since I usually use medium ones. There isn't any fun turtling behind a great shield and poking a boss to death as it attempts to give you a seizure from particle spam. And frankly people like you shouldn't be allowed oxygen. The amount of people finding Radahn fun VS being annoyed by him and wanting to skip him with a poke build says all you need to know about the state of the DLC. It's clearly not fun or people wouldn't be using the I win button to skip past him. An I win button that requires getting an item that people have complained about having to get for years. So "it's so fun you have to do the least popular thing in the entire base game to avoid doing it" is probably not a ringing endorsement for your boss design.

So you don't like shield gameplay but you used it? What a bitch...

While you seem to have done it (and probably found some reddit style circlejerk with more people like you), you don't know the actual amount of people that said fuck it and went for the I win to skip. And NONE of the things you mentioned in this thread are actually REQUIRED to beat the last boss. After finishing the game I checked some streamers and I saw a variety of kills (parry, 2h, etc). They weren't fast kills, they spent time learning him, you know, what people playing these games usually do instead of suffering with a build they hate to rush on forums and complain how much From sucks.

I don't know if you're an idiot or have a strawman you're looking to make. Someone who's used a shield for 15 years of souls games probably likes them. Probably finds it their favourite playing style even. Which is not the same as someone picking up a great shield just to cheese a boss.

"I checked 3 weeks after everyone finished the DLC and it turns out I'm not seeing a lot of the I win buttons". Okay, idiot. People cheesing Radahn beat him 2 weeks ago and moved on to other builds or other games. The I win button people are much harder to see because they're not going to be streaming the fight as long as people using other builds are they? It's like saying there's no marathon runners doing it in under 2 hours because you're watching the casual runners at the back of the race instead of the professionals already finished and getting medals.

 

[abija]

You know you can check vods that were played before nerfs? Dumbfuck...
And if there were people beating him normaly your whole argument is irrelevant. The ones not streaming can cheese or not, unless you have some hard proof of their overwhelmimg number, it's still just you projecting.

Someone who's used a shield for 15 years of souls games probably likes them. Probably finds it their favourite playing style even. Which is not the same as someone picking up a great shield just to cheese a boss.

Yeah, first one plays the game he loves, second is a bitch like you. What you argue though (falsly) is that the shield is required (or any other "cheese of the day" you read about).

 

[Hell Swarm]

You know you can check vods that were played before nerfs? Dumbfuck...

Someone who's used a shield for 15 years of souls games probably likes them. Probably finds it their favourite playing style even. Which is not the same as someone picking up a great shield just to cheese a boss.

Yeah, first one plays the game he loves, second is a bitch like you. What you argue though (falsly) is that the shield is required (or any other "cheese of the day" you read about).

Moving the goal posts and arguing with a strawman. Get a new argument from your little Twitch friends.

I tried Nioh 1. Not a bad game but i also wasn't particularly impressed by the combat system. Of course, the reason i quit is that i was told the game doesn't actually become "good" until NG++, which, while the idea of meshing Japofag action games with the Diablo system is intringuing in principle, i don't think they should have inherited the worst sins of that system. The game being a cakewalk in NG is the reason i can't play Diablo-likes anymore in the first place.

Or you could've tried equipping a less noob friendly weapon than Odachi if you were finding the game too easy. Not really that familiar with weapon balance in the first game, but I definitely recall having a much tougher time with it when I started with dual swords, before I switched to Odachi and difficulty went way down. And from videos you posted in that thread it looked to me like you were playing the game the most boring way possible. That looked more like some budged Souls gameplay than Nioh to me. My last run up to highest difficulty in N2 I was switching weapons every NG cycle and that made even NG+, which was a cakewalk with my previous two characters that played same weapon all the way to the end, reasonably challenging.

Well, how was i supposed to know the Odachi was the n00b weapon. I picked it because i liked the look and was basically everywhere.

Anyway, i got the strong impression Nioh 2 is the one i need to play so i finished it NG in Nion 1 and left it at that. No point invensting in that until NG++ when the second is the one to go.

Personally I've found Nioh 2 combat too gimmicky and dropped it rather early.


Struggled a good deal with some bosses in Nioh 1 NG - perhaps I'm not as good as you.
But even if you do need NG++ for challenge, getting there is MUCH faster and less intimidating then it may seem.

Finishing NG + DLC already sets you more then halfway (?) trough NG+, if you skip side content. Most of content is actually skippable past NG.
I'm not one for repeated gameplays, in fact I almost never do, but I've actually reached NG++ in Nioh. Took very little time and effort after NG.

This makes Nioh 2 seem really difficult to approach. I'm not interested in replaying games multiple times but I liked Nioh 1 when I tried it (but wasn't interested in another souls game at the time). What makes Nioh 2 the better game and why would I want to replay it 3 times? What's missing if you just play to the end credits/do the NG post game content/secret bosses?

 

[cvv]

The clones have long surpassed the original in complexity and depth.

But not in level design, never in level design.

Depends on the game.

DS3 level design is shockingly bad, almost all soulslikes are better, even Lies of P.
Sekiro is my favourite FS game but the level design isn't its strong suit. At the very least Nioh 2 and nu-Lords of the Fallen are way better. Darksiders 3 is about equal.

In general Nioh 2 and nuLotF can dance with the best FS games level-design-wise.

 

[Multidirectional]

What makes Nioh 2 the better game and why would I want to replay it 3 times? What's missing if you just play to the end credits/do the NG post game content/secret bosses?

Nioh 2 works better for me because I prefer combat systems that reward me for playing more aggressive. Addition of Anima system and yokai abilities does just that.

Nioh 2 NG+ changes

Changes applied to New Game +​

• Global
  • Divine and higher level gear and +level gear will now drop. (Divine Graces bonuses etc.)
  • Enemies have more health and deal more damage.
  • Mission rewards changed: some give exclusive smithing texts, many gain rarity bumps on their rewards, Spirit stones replaced with Lumicite etc.
• Dream of the Strong
  • The rate of fire of the shooting enemies (the bowmen, the gunmen and the cannoneers) is significantly increased.
  • Scrolls added to loot pool
  • Stone of Penance added to Shrine
  • Yasakani Magatama added as a rare accessory drop.
  • You gain the Kodama Bowl Smithing Text for competing every main and side mission available in the base game on this Cycle.
• Dream of the Demon (Requires The Tengu's Disciple)
  • Bosses gain new attacks, and existing attacks gain or lose burst counter properties.
  • Enemies from throughout the base game and dlc up to The Tengu's Disciple replace enemies in the main missions and twilight missions.
  • Divine Graces are added to divine weapons and armor that don't belong to a set bonus.
  • Soul Cores can drop in Divine Rarity
  • Yata Mirror as a rare drop in scrolls
  • Star effects can be found on items.
  • Elemental Weapon Damage and Active Skill Damage can be tempered on armor.
  • Cursed enemies begin to appear. In dream of the demon they have Increased Movement Speed and status effect imbued attacks if they didn't already. Human cursed enemies consume less Ki when attacking, and Yokai receive less Ki damage.
  • You gain the Scampuss Hat Smithing Text for competing every main and side mission available in the base game on this Cycle, along with the previous reward if you didn't have it already.
  • Twilight Missions award Fabled Umbracite after your first completion.
• Dream of the Wise (Requires Darkness in the Capital)
  • Normal Yokai enemies gain new attacks, and existing moves gain or lose burst counter properties.
  • Enemies from throughout the base game and dlc up to Darkness in the Capital replace enemies in main missions and twilight missions.
  • Ethereal Rarity equipment drops.
  • Ethereal Graces appear on any Weapon, Armor or Accessory that doesn't belong to a set bonus.
    • Ethereal Graces that appear in Dream of the Wise will also be put on accessories that gain increased rarity from the stone of penance.
  • Yata Mirror appears as a "normal" rare accessory drop (Same conditions as Yasakani Magatama)
  • More Special Effects can appear on soul cores, such as Increased Attack/ Defense/ Ki recovery speed (Yokai Ability Hit) and Yokai Ability Damage (Brute / Feral/ Phantom)
  • Purity and Corruption Accumulation can be tempered onto weapons and accessories.
  • Lucky Drop (Equipped Weapon, Equipped Armor and accessories) can be tempered on accessories.
  • Cursed enemies now deal increased Ki damage and Life Drain on their attacks.
  • More Special effects can appear on Scrolls, such as Mystic Dyad, Finishing Flair and the Ultimate Core Stat Series.
  • You gain the Sudama skull Smithing Text for competing every main and side mission available in the base game on this Cycle, along with the previous rewards if you didn't have them already.
  • Twilight Missions Award Divine Umbracite after your first completion.
• Dream of the Nioh (Requires The First Samurai)
  • Enemies from throughout the base game and dlc up to The First Samurai replace enemies in main missions and twilight missions.
  • Cursed Enemies gain passive health recovery.
  • More melee damage based effects can be tempered on armor.
  • The remaining Ethereal Graces appear.
  • Soul Cores can Drop at Ethereal Rarity.
  • The Underworld becomes available.
  • Set Bonuses gain + versions if the equipment drops as ethereal, gaining additional effects in the final tier of bonuses.
  • More star effects begin to appear on equipment, such as Set Bonus Requirements Reduced.
  • You gain the Mumyo's Mask Smithing Text for competing every main and side mission available in the base game on this Cycle, along with the previous rewards if you didn't have them already.

What is carried over to NG+?​

• All items, gear, kodamas, and soul cores collected are carried over to subsequent playthroughs.

What doesn't carry over to NG+?​

• Previously unlocked regions will be locked and will need to to unlocked by completing previous regions' main and side missions.

Numeric changes throughout New Game +​

Difficulty	Maximum Gear Level	Maximum Gear +level	Lowest main mission level	Highest main mission level
Dream of the Samurai	150-160	10	1	114
Dream of the Strong	160-170	10	119	215
Dream of the Demon	170-180	20	250	346
Dream of the Wise	180-190	30	380	476
Dream of the Nioh	190-200	120 (requires underworld)	510	632

I find these changes enough to keep me going. NG++++ is actually the final challenge but I prefer just going for Underworld there. And no, it's not the same as replaying the game 4 times. You don't unlock next difficulty in NG+ same way you do in NG. It's a faster process unless you yourself decide to waste more time than needed.

 

[Hell Swarm]

What makes Nioh 2 the better game and why would I want to replay it 3 times? What's missing if you just play to the end credits/do the NG post game content/secret bosses?

Nioh 2 works better for me because I prefer combat systems that reward me for playing more aggressive. Addition of Anima system and yokai abilities does just that.

Nioh 2 NG+ changes

Changes applied to New Game +​

• Global
  • Divine and higher level gear and +level gear will now drop. (Divine Graces bonuses etc.)
  • Enemies have more health and deal more damage.
  • Mission rewards changed: some give exclusive smithing texts, many gain rarity bumps on their rewards, Spirit stones replaced with Lumicite etc.
• Dream of the Strong
  • The rate of fire of the shooting enemies (the bowmen, the gunmen and the cannoneers) is significantly increased.
  • Scrolls added to loot pool
  • Stone of Penance added to Shrine
  • Yasakani Magatama added as a rare accessory drop.
  • You gain the Kodama Bowl Smithing Text for competing every main and side mission available in the base game on this Cycle.
• Dream of the Demon (Requires The Tengu's Disciple)
  • Bosses gain new attacks, and existing attacks gain or lose burst counter properties.
  • Enemies from throughout the base game and dlc up to The Tengu's Disciple replace enemies in the main missions and twilight missions.
  • Divine Graces are added to divine weapons and armor that don't belong to a set bonus.
  • Soul Cores can drop in Divine Rarity
  • Yata Mirror as a rare drop in scrolls
  • Star effects can be found on items.
  • Elemental Weapon Damage and Active Skill Damage can be tempered on armor.
  • Cursed enemies begin to appear. In dream of the demon they have Increased Movement Speed and status effect imbued attacks if they didn't already. Human cursed enemies consume less Ki when attacking, and Yokai receive less Ki damage.
  • You gain the Scampuss Hat Smithing Text for competing every main and side mission available in the base game on this Cycle, along with the previous reward if you didn't have it already.
  • Twilight Missions award Fabled Umbracite after your first completion.
• Dream of the Wise (Requires Darkness in the Capital)
  • Normal Yokai enemies gain new attacks, and existing moves gain or lose burst counter properties.
  • Enemies from throughout the base game and dlc up to Darkness in the Capital replace enemies in main missions and twilight missions.
  • Ethereal Rarity equipment drops.
  • Ethereal Graces appear on any Weapon, Armor or Accessory that doesn't belong to a set bonus.
    • Ethereal Graces that appear in Dream of the Wise will also be put on accessories that gain increased rarity from the stone of penance.
  • Yata Mirror appears as a "normal" rare accessory drop (Same conditions as Yasakani Magatama)
  • More Special Effects can appear on soul cores, such as Increased Attack/ Defense/ Ki recovery speed (Yokai Ability Hit) and Yokai Ability Damage (Brute / Feral/ Phantom)
  • Purity and Corruption Accumulation can be tempered onto weapons and accessories.
  • Lucky Drop (Equipped Weapon, Equipped Armor and accessories) can be tempered on accessories.
  • Cursed enemies now deal increased Ki damage and Life Drain on their attacks.
  • More Special effects can appear on Scrolls, such as Mystic Dyad, Finishing Flair and the Ultimate Core Stat Series.
  • You gain the Sudama skull Smithing Text for competing every main and side mission available in the base game on this Cycle, along with the previous rewards if you didn't have them already.
  • Twilight Missions Award Divine Umbracite after your first completion.
• Dream of the Nioh (Requires The First Samurai)
  • Enemies from throughout the base game and dlc up to The First Samurai replace enemies in main missions and twilight missions.
  • Cursed Enemies gain passive health recovery.
  • More melee damage based effects can be tempered on armor.
  • The remaining Ethereal Graces appear.
  • Soul Cores can Drop at Ethereal Rarity.
  • The Underworld becomes available.
  • Set Bonuses gain + versions if the equipment drops as ethereal, gaining additional effects in the final tier of bonuses.
  • More star effects begin to appear on equipment, such as Set Bonus Requirements Reduced.
  • You gain the Mumyo's Mask Smithing Text for competing every main and side mission available in the base game on this Cycle, along with the previous rewards if you didn't have them already.

What is carried over to NG+?​

• All items, gear, kodamas, and soul cores collected are carried over to subsequent playthroughs.

What doesn't carry over to NG+?​

• Previously unlocked regions will be locked and will need to to unlocked by completing previous regions' main and side missions.

Numeric changes throughout New Game +​

Difficulty	Maximum Gear Level	Maximum Gear +level	Lowest main mission level	Highest main mission level
Dream of the Samurai	150-160	10	1	114
Dream of the Strong	160-170	10	119	215
Dream of the Demon	170-180	20	250	346
Dream of the Wise	180-190	30	380	476
Dream of the Nioh	190-200	120 (requires underworld)	510	632

I find these changes enough to keep me going. NG++++ is actually the final challenge but I prefer just going for Underworld there. And no, it's not the same as replaying the game 4 times. You don't unlock next difficulty in NG+ same way you do in NG. It's a faster process unless you yourself decide to waste more time than needed.

You're being a bit vague here and I don't want spoilers. I'm trying to understand if this is a DMC situation which is the same game but they change the enemy encounters or if it's a Dark souls 2 situation where there's significant changes in what you will encounter that mixes up the gameplay