From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[gabel]

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[Silverfish]

You're not talking about tryhardness or difficulty, you're just sad they're not returning to their slower battle system (they won't).

Yeah, From would never backpeddle on anything. Sure is cool how Elden Ring expanded on the concept of bonfire ascetics.

Demon's souls is easily the easiest game in the series. It's difficulty is in maybe 3 bosses and being dumb enough to walk into traps. It's loved not for it's difficulty but because the adventure is good.

Worth reposting:

 

[Hell Swarm]

To each his own. If you ask me, the legacy dungeons in the base game contain some of the best level design they've ever done, and the open world in the DLC was a delight to explore and gave me all kinds of Dark Souls 1 vibes. The combat is faster but they still do everything well.

How did any part of Elden ring give you dark souls 1 vibes? It's empty as fuck and there's barely any reason to interact with most of the game. You run past it and collect the loot for the most part. The "best level design they've ever done" doesn't encourage you to avoid everything and frankly some of it is just too complex for it's own good. IF the loot was worth a damn the complexity wouldn't be an issue but don't give me a fucking mushroom and a pickled foot for finding a secret path.

 

[abija]

But that's exactly how you keep people that like to explore happy without ruining the fun for everyone else. The first category just needs a tip of the hat. They also use low-mid value items to indicate there's something more in an area. Then the discovery is the reward not the item.

 

[Lyric Suite]

and frankly some of it is just too complex for it's own good.

No such thing.

 

[cvv]

the legacy dungeons in the base game contain some of the best level design they've ever done, and the open world in the DLC was a delight to explore

True on both counts but both virtues are - in the DLC and vanilla - overpowered by vast, dull empty spaces with bizarre enemy encounter design, copypasted and mind-numbing minor dungeons and lore-story that's even more gonzo and cross-eye inducing than in FS previous games.

 

[Hell Swarm]

the legacy dungeons in the base game contain some of the best level design they've ever done, and the open world in the DLC was a delight to explore

True on both counts but both virtues are - in the DLC and vanilla - overpowered by vast, dull empty spaces with bizarre enemy encounter design, copypasted and mind-numbing minor dungeons and lore-story that's even more gonzo and cross-eye inducing than in FS previous games.

A lot of Elden rings design is really confusing. Consider how spammy the Academy is then compare it to the DLC where the same enemies appear but you fight them 1 on 1 in minor ambushes. It's crazy how the DLC takes the same enemies and makes them total cake walks. How were they designed? are they a multi encounter enemy where 6 in a room is fair (it's not) or is it a 1 on 1 enemy?

Elden Ring has a lot of interesting enemies but they're rarely mixed in a way that brings the best out of them. It's always "Lets add a dog here, people fucking hate dogs" and that's about as far as complexity goes. The birds are annoying to fight and constantly pressure you but they're never put in a position where that becomes a problem. The dragon spamming AOE lightning is the closest and that's just area denial. Old From would have put a powerful mage behind a couple of sleeping birds. If you want to kill him you'll need to get past them or run and hope you survive 3 of them after you kill the mage.

Adding 5 extra areas with the same enemies and no loot worth collecting is not improving the game. As much as I dislike Bloodborne, Bloodborne levels were often complex but they made the most of the extra areas with meaningful pick ups at the end. Another fucking cookbook is not worth the 10 minutes of walking down a small hall and killing 2 dogs and a mage which is about all most the additional areas offer. It's busy work for the player and the designer and the community (faggots) who keep demanding more and more complexity in level design are as bad as the boss whores. All these small side areas add no real value to the game and aren't real content. If you cut that content down you add hundreds of man hours, if not thousands back into the pool for designing the main areas. You cut down on loot bloat, you cut down on reusing the same enemies and you cut down on wasting the players time which is a win/win all round. You then have the artists and level designers free to make meaningful side dungeons with quality loot at the end that feels rewarding to explore. In the Academy the roof tops is a meaningful side area with it's own identity and enemy placement, that's good exploration. The secret wall before the boss that goes down a couple of hallways, you jump down a hole then find a cookbook is frankly worthless filler that offers nothing to the player in any way.

Elden Ring has likely killed any hope of From returning to a normal souls style game and I expect the next game in the overall series will start having base building and open world crafting material collection. As sad as it is From's combat system is so bare bones chopping down a tree with R1 might fit the player character more at this point. Even when they do add new additions it's done poorly. Dark souls 3 Archthrones added Guard counter and it only triggers if you block as an enemy attacks. Holding block doesn't get the counter trigger so you can't do what I did all through the DLC and hold L1 and then guard counter anything you want. While playing Archthrones I felt constantly engaged with combat because I had to time my blocks and pick my windows carefully. If amateur mod makers can figure out guard countering is more skillful (but still easy to use) and more engaging for the player by doing it this way why the fuck can't From? Guard counter is my favourite mechanic in any souls game, it fits my style of block and punish perfectly and yet a mod pulled it off better than From. And it's such a minor change for such a massive game impact that raises the skill ceiling just slightly and adds a tiny amount of depth to a stale combat system. But hey From sold 15 million copies of Elden ring or whatever, so why change a single thing when Dark souls Sword and Shield will sell as well as Dark Souls Scarlet/Violet and Game From's fans will never question how bad things have got because the new Pikachu boss fight has so many holy attacks you can't see your character any more.. Wait which series are we talking about again? Long running, deeply in decline yet outselling everything else despite being mostly handholding filler.

 

[Strange Fellow]

To each his own. If you ask me, the legacy dungeons in the base game contain some of the best level design they've ever done, and the open world in the DLC was a delight to explore and gave me all kinds of Dark Souls 1 vibes. The combat is faster but they still do everything well.

How did any part of Elden ring give you dark souls 1 vibes? It's empty as fuck and there's barely any reason to interact with most of the game. You run past it and collect the loot for the most part. The "best level design they've ever done" doesn't encourage you to avoid everything and frankly some of it is just too complex for it's own good. IF the loot was worth a damn the complexity wouldn't be an issue but don't give me a fucking mushroom and a pickled foot for finding a secret path.

My enjoyment of Dark Souls wasn't predicated on finding phat loot around every corner. I accepted in those game, as I do in this one, that not every piece of loot is going to be useful. I remember getting to the end of secret passages in the previous games only to find a spell or armour or weapon that didn't suit my build. That's the price you pay for build variety. Don't get me wrong, the crafting cookbooks can fuck off, but I don't think the problem is as ubiquitous as you make it out to be, and anyway my enjoyment in finding a route to a hidden treasure isn't nullified just because the item isn't useful to my character. If it's done well, exploration and the thrill of discovery is its own reward, and I thought it was done very well both in the main game's legacy dungeons and in the DLC's open world.

I'll give you an example of what I consider good exploration.

Spoiler

It starts with looking down the rift which is crossed by the greatbridge in the Gravesite Plain, and wondering if there's a way down. Some significant time later I discover that there is, and so I follow the river downstream, noticing that I'm passing next to areas I've already discovered high, high above. The river ends in a waterfall, but there's a plauteau visible a further ways down, so I look around for somewhere to drop, and find a series of ledges that take me down there (I also discover a sub-area halfway down filled with a million of those fly-things, which offers a few pieces of loot). On the plateau there's a catacomb, and in the catacomb there are a bunch of lifts that take me still much further down, all the way down to a bossfight, which when defeated opens the way to a whole new area. Far previously, and from a completely different part of the map, I had noticed some dead-looking trees far, far below me, and wondered if it's possible to get down there. Now, from initially just looking for a way down into the riverbed, I've discovered that yes there is! And it leads to a whole new, very unique area, with its own dungeon and a really good boss at the end of it.

Two things this reminds me of:
1. Dropping into the well in Majula (Dark Souls 2, but still) and discovering that there are multiple whole levels down there. You might not have had that experience with the well - the game does hint pretty heavily that one of the four old ones is down there, but I had somehow missed those hints - but I'm sure you know the experience of discovering that what you thought was a dead end or a small path maybe leading to a bit of loot, is actually something much more substantial. I got that feeling a lot with the DLC.
2. Getting a view of Ash Lake from the Tomb of the Giants. This one is very analogous to seeing the trees in the Abyssal Woods from above, to the point that I suspect it was an intentional throwback. Anyway, looking at far-off areas, wondering "how do I get there?", and setting out to find an answer, a lot of the time only to discover something entirely different, is another thing that happened to me all the time with the DLC.

TLDR: There are shockingly few games other than Dark Souls in which you can go "I wonder if I'll ever reach that area in the distance" and then later discover that "oh shit, yes I can, now I'm here". The DLC gave me that, and so I'm not particularly fussed that every inch of it isn't crawling with ambushes and/or cool weapons. I liked that things were spaced out and that not every area had to be roughly uniform in size and content density.

 

[cvv]

Adding 5 extra areas with the same enemies and no loot worth collecting is not improving the game.

Wouldn't be as harsh, I did enjoy my time with the DLC.

But now that I'm almost finished (only Bayle and Radahn left) I can say this is the only Fromsoft's DLC that didn't surpass the vanilla dramatically. If at all.

Not only that Elden Ring in general is their only game I will NOT be replaying ever.

I even replayed DS3 ffs, altho only with a total conversion mod. And it was a blast. Not gonna replay ER in any way, shape or form. Had my fill with this design philosophy, not gonna go back.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Dark Souls 1 is tryhard bullshit only to noobs who only knew popamole that was pervasive at the time it came out. And the fucking retard gaming journos of that time made all this stink about it like it's the hardest game ever. It wasn't, it simply forced you to actually pay attention to what you were doing. To people like me it felt like a bit of step back to design of games from 90s - early 2000s and it didn't feel harder than them. "Tough but fair" described it perfectly. But of course if all you've been playing was shit like AssCreed then Dark Souls will feel like omg hardest thing ever.

More like late 80s and early 90s. Demons souls came out in the 00s.

 

[Hell Swarm]

I remember getting to the end of secret passages in the previous games only to find a spell or armour or weapon that didn't suit my build. That's the price you pay for build variety. Don't get me wrong, the crafting cookbooks can fuck off, but I don't think the problem is as ubiquitous as you make it out to be, and anyway my enjoyment in finding a route to a hidden treasure isn't nullified just because the item isn't useful to my character. If it's done well, exploration and the thrill of discovery is its own reward, and I thought it was done very well both in the main game's legacy dungeons and in the DLC's open world.

I don't mind finding items I can't use or won't use, that still feels valuable. A new sword might not be for my build but I can say "Hey, that mattered to -someone-, that's cool". Who the fuck does a pickled fowl feet matter to or a cookbook to make buttplugs from runes? If there's a chance to find a new item for your build and you don't, there's still a lets say gambling chance from doing side areas. Collecting a totally useless item doesn't even give you the hope of a useable reward.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Sorry the cookbooks ruined it for you, I guess. I found lots of cool shit.

 

[Hell Swarm]

This guy made a decent video on the problems with the DLC and the problems with From's community at once. Don't agree with everything but he's on the mark about most of it.

Sorry the cookbooks ruined it for you, I guess. I found lots of cool shit.

You're such a dishonest little faggot. You found the same stupid shit I found and I bet you can't even tell me what recipes the cookbooks gave you let alone how many fire greases you used throughout your play through because both are irrelevant.

 

[Strange Fellow]

You found the same stupid shit I found

Of course.

I bet you can't even tell me what recipes the cookbooks gave you

Not a single one.

let alone how many fire greases you used throughout your play through

Not a single one.

Digressions aside, what part of "I found lots of cool shit" is unclear to you?

 

[Hell Swarm]

You found the same stupid shit I found

Of course.

I bet you can't even tell me what recipes the cookbooks gave you

Not a single one.

let alone how many fire greases you used throughout your play through

Not a single one.

Digressions aside, what part of "I found lots of cool shit" is unclear to you?

"I found 10 cook books, 3 feet, a mushroom and a helmet. This was a valuable experience and I'm glad I put the effort in to enhance my build" said fucking no one.

 

[cvv]

This guy made a decent video on the problems with the DLC

"Seems like most of the money went to remembrance bosses and the Shadow Keep"

Yep, that's my feelings, nicely boiled down.

 

[Hell Swarm]

This guy made a decent video on the problems with the DLC

"Seems like most of the money went to remembrance bosses and the Shadow Keep"

Yep, that's my feelings, nicely boiled down.

I know most people like the castles but I found most of them bland. The vertical area with the animals was cool until I saw you had to climb on Marika's feet and I was immediately fed up with From's pandering. They know the foot fetish meme and they knew exactly what they were doing and it spoiled an other wise pretty good area. Although unoriginal because we've seen the banster thing multiple times. It should have been just moving across weird animal corpses to be something original IMO.

New Londo was great, enjoyed it a lot but I can't see it as part of Shadow keep even if it technically is. If taking an elevator ride that long is the same area than firelink is new londo and the parish in one.

The money definitely went into developing the spectral with boss fights. That's really easy to see on display.

 

[abija]

I stopped when he called the DLC lazy. There's personal opinion and there's being 100% dumbfuck. I should have stopped at the part with "I felt something wrong when entering the DLC", but hey, my bad.

I wish him (and many of you) to play only games were the devs were less lazy than From with this DLC.

 

[Stoned Ape]

I hope they have more weapons similar to the Carian Sorcery Sword in future games. Although it's high-end scaling is not as good as a staff and you can't use it to guard counter or do heavy attacks it is pretty fun to cast spells with a melee weapon. It would be pretty cool if they had a similar weapon (or shield) for Faith builds.

 

[Hell Swarm]

I stopped when he called the DLC lazy. There's personal opinion and there's being 100% dumbfuck. I should have stopped at the part with "I felt something wrong when entering the DLC", but hey, my bad.

I wish him (and many of you) to play only games were the devs were less lazy than From with this DLC.

"I didn't think From were lazy when they turned normal enemies into bosses all throughout the DLC or reused based game assets slightly reskinned."

So you didn't like the truth.. Are you going to tell us how original the shadow Dreglings from Demon's souls are?

 

[cvv]

I stopped when he called the DLC lazy.

It was first time I heard someone call the DLC lazy, sure.

But in the last two weeks I've heard and read A LOT of takes saying the DLC is "kindda empty" and I've heard a couple about it being "unfinished" and "rushed".

In fact the "empty" take seemed to be the majority one. "Lazy" might be a stretch but it's not THAT far off.

 

[Hell Swarm]

I stopped when he called the DLC lazy.

It was first time I heard someone call the DLC lazy, sure.

But in the last two weeks I've heard and read A LOT of takes saying the DLC is "kindda empty" and I've heard a couple about it being "unfinished" and "rushed".

In fact the "empty" take seemed to be the majority one. "Lazy" might be a stretch but it's not THAT far off.

While saying it was lazy he shows footage of a shadow dancer (is that the name?) with a health bar under it. Then shows some other bosses using normal enemies as well. There's areas From put a lot of work into but taking the literal first enemy you encounter in the DLC and giving it more HP and calling it a dungeon boss is unacceptable and very lazy. Same with reusing the dragons from the base game already over filled with dragons. The issue isn't just the emptiness or some of the areas feeling a bit samey. It's the exact issue we complained about with Elden ring reusing bosses just to pad the numbers out.

 

[Stoned Ape]

But in the last two weeks I've heard and read A LOT of takes saying the DLC is "kindda empty" and I've heard a couple about it being "unfinished" and "rushed".

Apparently there's text lines for a cut Miquella ending (1000 years of compassion). The Putrescent Knight was also apparently repurposed from Gloam-Eyed Queen content to St Trina. I know this sort of thing is pretty common in development but it is a bit frustrating to know we'll never get the original vision for what the DLC was planned to be.

Still, there have been far worse examples (for example the original Dragon's Dogma had around half the planned content cut) and I enjoyed playing through this.

 

[cvv]

Same with reusing the dragons from the base game already over filled with dragons.

I for one was never too bothered by reused enemies and bosses in the vanilla - and there was A LOT of that already. I didn't exactly loved it but on my list of serious problems it wasn't even there.

But I very much subscribe to his claims of emptiness and the lackluster effort/reward system (mostly cookbooks, stones and runes wherever you go).

Oh and one more thing he didn't mention - for some reason most DLC spells, ashes and summons are terrible. Especially the spells and other knicknacks you got from remembrances and dragons seem all laughably useless. I don't use summons much but I found only the horned warrior and golem useful (and the healing finger thing, that one is potentially downright broken). Everything else is laughably bad even though I'm sure I haven't found everything yet.

 

[notpl]

People praised the DLC's bosses - and I certainly liked a few of them - but overall I felt they continued to lean into their very worst design impulses, reveling in the idea of being "hard" at immeasurable cost to things like verisimilitude and worldbuilding. Just like it's bullshit and immersion-ruining that Malenia keys off your controller input and levitates into the air to begin a thrusting attack before your character has even started the flask-drinking animation, it's bullshit how many of the DLC's bosses are designed with frame-perfect dodge rolls in mind. "I-frames" as a concept should not even exist, let alone become a cornerstone of your gameplay. If you force me to dodgeroll through an arena-wide explosion, causing me to miraculously avoid damage as flaming lava washes over me, then you no longer deserve the acclaim of "great worldbuilding." You haven't created a world that makes any sort of sense. If you force me to start thinking about frame data and hitboxes then you have completely failed at that job. At that point I'm just playing Street Fighter against you, the dev. No longer an RPG, no longer an adventure, barely even a game.