From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Multidirectional]

IIRC never used life leech and as for confusion, is it still a thing in N2?

Pretty sure that would be the reason then. Bonuses that let you heal while attacking and Confusion are significant. I don't see myself doing anywhere near as good without them. Seems like your "minmaxed" build basically sucked.

 

[cvv]

IIRC never used life leech and as for confusion, is it still a thing in N2?

Seems like your "minmaxed" build basically sucked.

It was minmaxed by me so yes.

 

[cvv]

 

[DJOGamer PT]

i don't think FromSoft has ever had any interest in terms of emulating action games like DMC

That could've been true, had they never made Sekiro

I do not buy this notion there is a way action games "ought" to do things

I guess you also do not buy the notion that there is a way role-playing videogames should do things?
That there are fundamental characteristics it should try to respect

least of all with using DMC as the metric to use.

So does this mean that from now on you'll never use Doom as your metric whenever you talk about fps?

don't want FromSoft combat to turn into turbo twitch arcade mode.

It already is
The difference is it lacks the mechanical intricacy of the best arcade games

Even Sekiro didn't go that way

Yes it did
Sekiro was pretty much Fromsoft's MGR

Part of it is the flash

You didn't have this problem with Sekiro
DMC is flashier on purpose because of its scoring system focuses on style
But when comparing to the other games in the genre, Sekiro isn't that far off DMC, it seats neatly on the spectacle figther niche

part of it is this aspect of complexity in performing the action which just doesn't have any lure for me.

Very few are the moves in DMC are actually complex to perfrom
The complexity comes from the moves mechanical design (their properties and purpose)
But even for figthing games where the action is complex to perform in and of itself, I honestly fail to see why it's a lesser design approach as opposed to defeating enemies by way of sheer memorization
In fact, the other way around makes more sense: it forces players to analyse the moment and the action he wants to take, it reinforces the component of mastery and the higher disparity of risk/reward makes the action more intense

I tried Nioh 1. Not a bad game but i also wasn't particularly impressed by the combat system.

Not enough rythm autism I wager...
And you don't need to go to NG+ for the game to "get good", the game is good from the start
Don't mistake "difficulty" degree for "mechanical design" quality

Overall, the more we discuss this the more it consolidates the opinion that you don't like figthing gameplay
You like the particular strain of simplistic action mechanics with little depth and restrictive "simon says" enemy design, that FromSoftware has settled for
And it doesn't matter how much exaggerated these design elements become with each subsequent installment and much how much they clash with the design fundamentals of fighting gameplay, because ultimately you don't like the latter and think the former is more engaging

 

[Silverfish]

DMC 2 is garbage, so you can skip it.

Don't skip DMC2. It's peak comedy.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Overall, the more we discuss this the more it consolidates the opinion that you don't like figthing gameplay
You like the particular strain of simplistic action mechanics with little depth and restrictive "simon says" enemy design, that FromSoftware has settled for
And it doesn't matter how much exaggerated these design elements become with each subsequent installment and much how much they clash with the design fundamentals of fighting gameplay, because ultimately you don't like the latter and think the former is more engaging

He's autistic and looks at these bosses as ways to break a puzzle. Instead of playing the games and enjoying the puzzle he wants to take a sledge hammer to them and go "look how easy that was to break!" Likely the reason he likes souls games at all is because they can be broken so easily so you can effectively play them like 3rd person JRPGs where you collect the highest quality equipment and spells and 1 shot the final boss.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Honestly, at the end of the day the problem lies with the fact that From keeps on placing a greater focus on this "fast and brutal" style of combat and enemy design they've been enamored since Bloodborne, without further developing the combat mechanics of the playable character to better accommodate this shift
Which is funny because the Weapon Arts system was a step in the right direction, but for some reason they barely developed it for ER
If they had kept the pace and style of combat that worked so well on DeS to DS2, then the overall simplicity of the combat wouldn't be so jarring

Fucking hell
Remember when these games challenges were primarly enjoyable and not tryhard bullshit?

 

[Hell Swarm]

Honestly, at the end of the day the problem lies with the fact that From keeps on placing a greater focus on this "fast and brutal" style of combat and enemy design they've been enamored since Bloodborne, without further developing the combat mechanics of the playable character to better accommodate this shift
Which is funny because the Weapon Arts system was a step in the right direction, but for some reason they barely developed it for ER
If they had kept the pace and style of combat that worked so well on DeS to DS2, then the overall simplicity of the combat wouldn't be so jarring

Fucking hell
Remember when these games challenges were primarly enjoyable and not tryhard bullshit?

Weapon arts are a big problem in and of themselves. If they were stuff like spinning slash and impaling thrust I wouldn't have an issue. But then you have bloody slash and whatever Elden beast's sword is called. Weapon arts should not be clearing the room with 1 button press. Especially not when you have PvP still in the game and an invader is expected to be able to dodge these things times 3.

 

[Odoryuk]

Fucking hell
Remember when these games challenges were primarly enjoyable and not tryhard bullshit?

I remember when Demon's Souls and Dark Souls were considered tryhard bullshit. And people whined back then as well.

 

[Multidirectional]

Dark Souls 1 is tryhard bullshit only to noobs who only knew popamole that was pervasive at the time it came out. And the fucking retard gaming journos of that time made all this stink about it like it's the hardest game ever. It wasn't, it simply forced you to actually pay attention to what you were doing. To people like me it felt like a bit of step back to design of games from 90s - early 2000s and it didn't feel harder than them. "Tough but fair" described it perfectly. But of course if all you've been playing was shit like AssCreed then Dark Souls will feel like omg hardest thing ever.

 

[Hell Swarm]

The "it's ultra fucking hard bro!" doesn't even come from the actual game. It comes from the demo at some convention where everyone blew smoke up it's ass because Demon's souls was just the right level of 'indie' game the journos love to promote and it was getting a sequel.

 

[Ravielsk]

Honestly, at the end of the day the problem lies with the fact that From keeps on placing a greater focus on this "fast and brutal" style of combat and enemy design they've been enamored since Bloodborne, without further developing the combat mechanics of the playable character to better accommodate this shift
Which is funny because the Weapon Arts system was a step in the right direction, but for some reason they barely developed it for ER
If they had kept the pace and style of combat that worked so well on DeS to DS2, then the overall simplicity of the combat wouldn't be so jarring

Fucking hell
Remember when these games challenges were primarly enjoyable and not tryhard bullshit?

Paradoxically if they tried to go back to this less "tryhard" design philosophy the very same people that are currently fellating would drop them like a bag of dog turds. From has unfortunately fermented for themselves an audience of people who use the amount of... how to say it "hardship(?)" the game inflicts upon them as a measure of quality. So a return to basics would almost certainly be meet with groans of dissatisfaction at best and accusations of being buck broken at the worst.

 

[Odoryuk]

Honestly, at the end of the day the problem lies with the fact that From keeps on placing a greater focus on this "fast and brutal" style of combat and enemy design they've been enamored since Bloodborne, without further developing the combat mechanics of the playable character to better accommodate this shift
Which is funny because the Weapon Arts system was a step in the right direction, but for some reason they barely developed it for ER
If they had kept the pace and style of combat that worked so well on DeS to DS2, then the overall simplicity of the combat wouldn't be so jarring

Fucking hell
Remember when these games challenges were primarly enjoyable and not tryhard bullshit?

Paradoxically if they tried to go back to this less "tryhard" design philosophy the very same people that are currently fellating would drop them like a bag of dog turds. From has unfortunately fermented for themselves an audience of people who use the amount of... how to say it "hardship(?)" the game inflicts upon them as a measure of quality. So a return to basics would almost certainly be meet with groans of dissatisfaction at best and accusations of being buck broken at the worst.

Weird to say this after Elden Ring, their easiest game yet, recieved so much praise. You're not talking about tryhardness or difficulty, you're just sad they're not returning to their slower battle system (they won't).

 

[Reinhardt]

finally finished swamp shithole. red shithole next.
witch wommyn was very easy. slow and predictable. proper depiction of dress-wearing person when you engage them in melee. got hit literally once in both phases combined. her castle was really annoying tho with all that roof hopping and masked trannies. fuck this "verticality" shit.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Weird to say this after Elden Ring, their easiest game yet, recieved so much praise.

Demon's souls is easily the easiest game in the series. It's difficulty is in maybe 3 bosses and being dumb enough to walk into traps. It's loved not for it's difficulty but because the adventure is good. The difficulty problem would be fine if the adventure was worth the difficulty but it's not any more. No one wanted to ride along empty fields collecting flask/scadu upgrades then run into a boss that 2 shots you any way. The argument has always been 'From has sacrificed everything at the expense of Boss fights and those Boss fights are no longer balanced around standard game play but gimmicks". They always had the issues with some play styles trivializing the game and expecting the player to be smart enough to not use those options if they didn't want to do that. A dynamic self imposed difficulty system. The issue comes from the player base now not being smart enough to self regulate and instead of From saying 'your problem not ours' they get into an arms race with them. They're trying to make bosses for streamers like Lobosjr who is playing Elden ring for 7 hours a day every day of the week. How the fuck can any developer expect to match that? And better yet why the fuck would you want to? It's like making a MMORPG strictly for raiders, bypassing anything but raid bosses. Which the guilds raiding beat in a week tops and go "Where's my next boss!? When's the next expansion!?" and any one wanting to literally anything else is left out in the cold.

If you want to play Demon's souls with the magic falchion you can pick up in 4-1, you can beat the entire game no problem. It's stupid powerful, has low stat requirements and requires you dodge 1 attack to loot it. It will beat all of the early game like a hot knife through butter. Want to use magic to nuke everything in like 3 spells? Again. No problem. If that's how you have fun then by all means enjoy that game play. But for many of us these games are hollow immitations of what they once were. We went from amazing adventures in dark fantasy lands to 'How do I dodge you're 20 hit combo' and having to push L1 to unleash the apocalypse from our buttholes to deal 30% of a bosses health again and again. And it's such a complete 180 in design philosophy and game quality it's hard to look at Elden Ring and Demons souls as the same series. It's fine if From want Elden ring to be weapon art based, but if that's what they want then they need to stop making Demons souls +1+1+1+1+1 and start looking at similar flashy action games and make Demons souls + Nier Automata + DMC + Nioh + Lies of P + Lords of the fallen.

 

[Strange Fellow]

To each his own. If you ask me, the legacy dungeons in the base game contain some of the best level design they've ever done, and the open world in the DLC was a delight to explore and gave me all kinds of Dark Souls 1 vibes. The combat is faster but they still do everything well.

 

[gabel]

View attachment 52419

 

[Silverfish]

You're not talking about tryhardness or difficulty, you're just sad they're not returning to their slower battle system (they won't).

Yeah, From would never backpeddle on anything. Sure is cool how Elden Ring expanded on the concept of bonfire ascetics.

Demon's souls is easily the easiest game in the series. It's difficulty is in maybe 3 bosses and being dumb enough to walk into traps. It's loved not for it's difficulty but because the adventure is good.

Worth reposting:

 

[Hell Swarm]

To each his own. If you ask me, the legacy dungeons in the base game contain some of the best level design they've ever done, and the open world in the DLC was a delight to explore and gave me all kinds of Dark Souls 1 vibes. The combat is faster but they still do everything well.

How did any part of Elden ring give you dark souls 1 vibes? It's empty as fuck and there's barely any reason to interact with most of the game. You run past it and collect the loot for the most part. The "best level design they've ever done" doesn't encourage you to avoid everything and frankly some of it is just too complex for it's own good. IF the loot was worth a damn the complexity wouldn't be an issue but don't give me a fucking mushroom and a pickled foot for finding a secret path.

 

[abija]

But that's exactly how you keep people that like to explore happy without ruining the fun for everyone else. The first category just needs a tip of the hat. They also use low-mid value items to indicate there's something more in an area. Then the discovery is the reward not the item.

 

[Lyric Suite]

and frankly some of it is just too complex for it's own good.

No such thing.

 

[cvv]

the legacy dungeons in the base game contain some of the best level design they've ever done, and the open world in the DLC was a delight to explore

True on both counts but both virtues are - in the DLC and vanilla - overpowered by vast, dull empty spaces with bizarre enemy encounter design, copypasted and mind-numbing minor dungeons and lore-story that's even more gonzo and cross-eye inducing than in FS previous games.

 

[Hell Swarm]

the legacy dungeons in the base game contain some of the best level design they've ever done, and the open world in the DLC was a delight to explore

True on both counts but both virtues are - in the DLC and vanilla - overpowered by vast, dull empty spaces with bizarre enemy encounter design, copypasted and mind-numbing minor dungeons and lore-story that's even more gonzo and cross-eye inducing than in FS previous games.

A lot of Elden rings design is really confusing. Consider how spammy the Academy is then compare it to the DLC where the same enemies appear but you fight them 1 on 1 in minor ambushes. It's crazy how the DLC takes the same enemies and makes them total cake walks. How were they designed? are they a multi encounter enemy where 6 in a room is fair (it's not) or is it a 1 on 1 enemy?

Elden Ring has a lot of interesting enemies but they're rarely mixed in a way that brings the best out of them. It's always "Lets add a dog here, people fucking hate dogs" and that's about as far as complexity goes. The birds are annoying to fight and constantly pressure you but they're never put in a position where that becomes a problem. The dragon spamming AOE lightning is the closest and that's just area denial. Old From would have put a powerful mage behind a couple of sleeping birds. If you want to kill him you'll need to get past them or run and hope you survive 3 of them after you kill the mage.

Adding 5 extra areas with the same enemies and no loot worth collecting is not improving the game. As much as I dislike Bloodborne, Bloodborne levels were often complex but they made the most of the extra areas with meaningful pick ups at the end. Another fucking cookbook is not worth the 10 minutes of walking down a small hall and killing 2 dogs and a mage which is about all most the additional areas offer. It's busy work for the player and the designer and the community (faggots) who keep demanding more and more complexity in level design are as bad as the boss whores. All these small side areas add no real value to the game and aren't real content. If you cut that content down you add hundreds of man hours, if not thousands back into the pool for designing the main areas. You cut down on loot bloat, you cut down on reusing the same enemies and you cut down on wasting the players time which is a win/win all round. You then have the artists and level designers free to make meaningful side dungeons with quality loot at the end that feels rewarding to explore. In the Academy the roof tops is a meaningful side area with it's own identity and enemy placement, that's good exploration. The secret wall before the boss that goes down a couple of hallways, you jump down a hole then find a cookbook is frankly worthless filler that offers nothing to the player in any way.

Elden Ring has likely killed any hope of From returning to a normal souls style game and I expect the next game in the overall series will start having base building and open world crafting material collection. As sad as it is From's combat system is so bare bones chopping down a tree with R1 might fit the player character more at this point. Even when they do add new additions it's done poorly. Dark souls 3 Archthrones added Guard counter and it only triggers if you block as an enemy attacks. Holding block doesn't get the counter trigger so you can't do what I did all through the DLC and hold L1 and then guard counter anything you want. While playing Archthrones I felt constantly engaged with combat because I had to time my blocks and pick my windows carefully. If amateur mod makers can figure out guard countering is more skillful (but still easy to use) and more engaging for the player by doing it this way why the fuck can't From? Guard counter is my favourite mechanic in any souls game, it fits my style of block and punish perfectly and yet a mod pulled it off better than From. And it's such a minor change for such a massive game impact that raises the skill ceiling just slightly and adds a tiny amount of depth to a stale combat system. But hey From sold 15 million copies of Elden ring or whatever, so why change a single thing when Dark souls Sword and Shield will sell as well as Dark Souls Scarlet/Violet and Game From's fans will never question how bad things have got because the new Pikachu boss fight has so many holy attacks you can't see your character any more.. Wait which series are we talking about again? Long running, deeply in decline yet outselling everything else despite being mostly handholding filler.

 

[Strange Fellow]

To each his own. If you ask me, the legacy dungeons in the base game contain some of the best level design they've ever done, and the open world in the DLC was a delight to explore and gave me all kinds of Dark Souls 1 vibes. The combat is faster but they still do everything well.

How did any part of Elden ring give you dark souls 1 vibes? It's empty as fuck and there's barely any reason to interact with most of the game. You run past it and collect the loot for the most part. The "best level design they've ever done" doesn't encourage you to avoid everything and frankly some of it is just too complex for it's own good. IF the loot was worth a damn the complexity wouldn't be an issue but don't give me a fucking mushroom and a pickled foot for finding a secret path.

My enjoyment of Dark Souls wasn't predicated on finding phat loot around every corner. I accepted in those game, as I do in this one, that not every piece of loot is going to be useful. I remember getting to the end of secret passages in the previous games only to find a spell or armour or weapon that didn't suit my build. That's the price you pay for build variety. Don't get me wrong, the crafting cookbooks can fuck off, but I don't think the problem is as ubiquitous as you make it out to be, and anyway my enjoyment in finding a route to a hidden treasure isn't nullified just because the item isn't useful to my character. If it's done well, exploration and the thrill of discovery is its own reward, and I thought it was done very well both in the main game's legacy dungeons and in the DLC's open world.

I'll give you an example of what I consider good exploration.

Spoiler

It starts with looking down the rift which is crossed by the greatbridge in the Gravesite Plain, and wondering if there's a way down. Some significant time later I discover that there is, and so I follow the river downstream, noticing that I'm passing next to areas I've already discovered high, high above. The river ends in a waterfall, but there's a plauteau visible a further ways down, so I look around for somewhere to drop, and find a series of ledges that take me down there (I also discover a sub-area halfway down filled with a million of those fly-things, which offers a few pieces of loot). On the plateau there's a catacomb, and in the catacomb there are a bunch of lifts that take me still much further down, all the way down to a bossfight, which when defeated opens the way to a whole new area. Far previously, and from a completely different part of the map, I had noticed some dead-looking trees far, far below me, and wondered if it's possible to get down there. Now, from initially just looking for a way down into the riverbed, I've discovered that yes there is! And it leads to a whole new, very unique area, with its own dungeon and a really good boss at the end of it.

Two things this reminds me of:
1. Dropping into the well in Majula (Dark Souls 2, but still) and discovering that there are multiple whole levels down there. You might not have had that experience with the well - the game does hint pretty heavily that one of the four old ones is down there, but I had somehow missed those hints - but I'm sure you know the experience of discovering that what you thought was a dead end or a small path maybe leading to a bit of loot, is actually something much more substantial. I got that feeling a lot with the DLC.
2. Getting a view of Ash Lake from the Tomb of the Giants. This one is very analogous to seeing the trees in the Abyssal Woods from above, to the point that I suspect it was an intentional throwback. Anyway, looking at far-off areas, wondering "how do I get there?", and setting out to find an answer, a lot of the time only to discover something entirely different, is another thing that happened to me all the time with the DLC.

TLDR: There are shockingly few games other than Dark Souls in which you can go "I wonder if I'll ever reach that area in the distance" and then later discover that "oh shit, yes I can, now I'm here". The DLC gave me that, and so I'm not particularly fussed that every inch of it isn't crawling with ambushes and/or cool weapons. I liked that things were spaced out and that not every area had to be roughly uniform in size and content density.

 

[cvv]

Adding 5 extra areas with the same enemies and no loot worth collecting is not improving the game.

Wouldn't be as harsh, I did enjoy my time with the DLC.

But now that I'm almost finished (only Bayle and Radahn left) I can say this is the only Fromsoft's DLC that didn't surpass the vanilla dramatically. If at all.

Not only that Elden Ring in general is their only game I will NOT be replaying ever.

I even replayed DS3 ffs, altho only with a total conversion mod. And it was a blast. Not gonna replay ER in any way, shape or form. Had my fill with this design philosophy, not gonna go back.