From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[abija]

He's just defending his bitch initial takes of DLC being too hard.

 

[Hell Swarm]

He's just defending his bitch initial takes of DLC being too hard.

Wasn't I like the 3rd person in the thread to beat the DLC? and the day after it got patched to be easier.

All playing on easy mode.

Rather than being tiny little piss babies angry you get laughed at for using golden vow in every build how about we do a group challenge run? We'll pick the equipment, magic, spirit ashes and armour you're allowed to wear and we all do the run with the exact same load out. No bullshit, no gimmicks. We're all on an even playing field and we'll see how well the game goes. Doesn't have to be Elden Ring, can be DS2, DS3 or Elden Ring so there's some build flexibility. Who's interested?

https://eldenforge.vercel.app/ai This gives us a completely random build. Someone can either do it on stream to prove it's legit or I can do it and post the results.

 

[Ramnozack]

With all I'd heard about the final boss I thought I'd need a few days of hard practice to beat him. I didn't have the energy for that so I'd been putting it off. Today I sat down to do it. This way my third attempt:



The lion at the start too me more tries.

Fight isn't hard if you dont have to learn how to dodge his attacks. Its why greatshield builds have a easy time with it as well, dont have to dodge anything just block all of his bullshit and counter attack, or in your case just poise through it with prayerful strike

 

[Bulo]

Play Sekiro

 

[Bloodeyes]

With all I'd heard about the final boss I thought I'd need a few days of hard practice to beat him. I didn't have the energy for that so I'd been putting it off. Today I sat down to do it. This way my third attempt:



The lion at the start too me more tries.

Fight isn't hard if you dont have to learn how to dodge his attacks. Its why greatshield builds have a easy time with it as well, dont have to dodge anything just block all of his bullshit and counter attack, or in your case just poise through it with prayerful strike

I mean yeah that's why I chose to use it. I'd use a hyper armour ash on this fight every time. Its pretty optimal IMO.

 

[Silverfish]

I think it's the gargoyles go from 1200 souls to 10,000 isn't it?

No, it's 15. I've done that fight way too many times.

but a normal play through (fuck off Lyric) it's significantly harder.

Which is apparently still an issue. I was watching a video a while back about how drastically Elden Ring has changed compared to the launch version. Seeing the dlc eat a nerf after a few days was even funnier.

I would be proud of this win but the fact I buffed beforehand invalidates it. It seems unfair but I don't make the rules:



I also moved intentionally to defeat their attacks. Clearly I practiced this fight beforehand many times.

Genuinely impressed with the amount of shit you had to dodge. Makes the DS3 players complaining about hosts and phantoms wrecking them with estocs seem quaint.

 

[abija]

Wasn't I like the 3rd person in the thread to beat the DLC? and the day after it got patched to be easier.

Yes, you rushed the game and complained From is terrible and some bosses are too hard while most people were doubting your takes. Unsurprisingly, "I'm a 1% player and had to spend 1h on a boss hence game is too hard" turned out to be as shitty as it seemed.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Wasn't I like the 3rd person in the thread to beat the DLC? and the day after it got patched to be easier.

Yes, you rushed the game and complained From is terrible and some bosses are too hard while most people were doubting your takes. Unsurprisingly, "I'm a 1% player and had to spend 1h on a boss hence game is too hard" turned out to be as shitty as it seemed.

"You rushed the game" as I played it at a rather leisurely pace lol.

Did I ever say spending 1 hour on a boss is too hard? I said the DLC spams particle effects and has unavoidable damage. Which has proven to be true. I don't think your opinion is very valid when you're bursting bosses down and missing entire phases where these problems happen. I can beat the game your way, it's so easy even a child can do it. You dodge 2 attacks and other wise ignore the boss entirely. From know you can do it and leave it in so people who can't play the game have an option to advance. They expect you not to ruin the game for yourself, but I supposed autists won't understand that and think they're hot shit for doing so instead.

 

[Ravielsk]

I have never understood this mind set of "I can cheese it therefore its fine". I swear to god at this point From could put out a boss that literary turns off your machine but some chuckle fucks would argue its not an issues because you can snipe him through a wall before the shutdown script can initiate.

 

[Hell Swarm]

I have never understood this mind set of "I can cheese it therefore its fine". I swear to god at this point From could put out a boss that literary turns off your machine but some chuckle fucks would argue its not an issues because you can snipe him through a wall before the shutdown script can initiate.

Did you notice before Radahn they never used healing abilities in those burst builds? They always had enough damage to kill a boss before it could kill them. Now suddenly there's loads of healing 2hand builds going around because Radahn's damage is so high the odd hit they do take is going to kill them other wise and they have no idea how to avoid his attacks It's a clear change in the bursting things down play style. It's pretty funny/sad when you have to stagger a boss to death and still need healing to survive the simple combos they're throwing out now.

But of course the problem is From never intended you to use the hundreds of weapons that don't kill a boss before it can phase change. That makes so much more sense!

 

[abija]

Ravielsk Maybe the problem is with your definition of cheese.

Hell Swarm

Re: all the whining. I recommend trying to let go of the idea that you're supposed to be good at these games. Try to enter into the same mindstate you had when you first started with Souls games, when everything seemed impossible. You will have fun again.

What utter bullshit. My mentality is that I'm good at Souls games and I expect the game to challenge me with tough but fair boss fights. I expect to get stuck for an hour+ on a few fights and there will be bad hit box rage moments and a lot of sucker punches until I finally succeed. I'm having fun at times but I'm also not at others because From keep pushing boundaries for no reason. The Furnace golems are 100% pushed fire golems from the base game. 2 staggers to drop them would have been challenging, but it's 3 staggers and you have to drop them twice. When their jump is extremely difficult to dodge. It's not tough but fair at that point, it's bullet sponges with hard to dodge attacks who can 1 shot you if you try to run away from them.

I am seriously considering taking down big Mogh and hitting this DLC with a level 1 character. I think there's enough broken shit you can do to force your way through even at SL1 if you want to.

1h+ on few fights means game is too easy. And you keep repeating sponges which hasn't been at all my experience in this DLC. If anything the bosses I fought so far died too fast.

Not trying to internet tough guy here but I am probably in the top 1% of souls players. I've been at this since the original Demon's Souls and I've done challenge runs (and not youtubers spamming save states to reload bosses instantly challenge runs). If I get stuck on a boss for an hour that's a serious challenge for most people and getting stuck on the last one for nearly 10 is an unreasonable challenge for most players. I'm good at these games and I have the determination to grind it out even when I'm getting my ass kicked. I don't expect people who started with Elden ring to have an easy time even with the very first non-main boss you find to the left of the DLC entry point. I didn't expect people to have an easy time with a giant katana faggot who randomly iframes your shit and is hyper aggressive.

The DLC bosses are undeniably damage sponges. There's a reason why base game damage is basically quadrupled by the end of the DLC. If you don't go out of your way to get upgrade material you're going to be hitting like a wet sponge. Other than Rykard who has the serpent hunter to balance it the closest bosses in base game have a quarter less HP than the DLC bosses do. And they stay at the 40-45k point for most the DLC with you getting stronger to match them. There's ways to cheese them and 1 shot them but that's not part of the discussion because it's not how the game is being played by most people.

And the whole "bursting down" is your own clown defense as if playing the game normally is not possible, only skilled players struggling or noobs cheesing it.

 

[cvv]

Dunno, this whole debate is so retarded.

The real problem with FS games, difficulty-wise, is this:

- From refuses to implement normal difficulty options, therefore they have to set the "optimal" fixed difficulty, which is obviously an impossible and utterly imbecilic goal
- in ER they boxed themselves even further in the corner with their insistence to reinvent the wheel because in order to appease noobs they massively expanded the summoning feature and now anybody can just summon a Mimic that can solo 90% of the bosses, and 100% of the mandatory ones, while the host stands in the corner, heroically picking their nose. Therefore now the game is "easy" if you "use all the tools in your toolbox", you know?

In other words, 95% of FS games' problems stems from Fromsoft's resolve to come up with a better solution to difficulty - which most of the fanbase keeps cheering on despite the massive failure so far - and people WILL keep bitching about their games being too easy/too hard until they finally see that the only possible shape of the wheel is indeed round, instead of angular or spiral or whatever, and implement the only real solution invented decades ago - standard difficulty options.

 

[cvv]

And here's the first retard with his thumbs down. Because we all know standard difficulty options are bad in FS games - even though literally zero people have had any problems with them in any other game they've ever played. And even though FS games with their novel reinvented wheels are literally THE ONLY action RPGs - or any games, really - where people keep mass-bitching about difficulty across the spectrum, from noobs who whine they're too hard to veterans who bitch they're too easy. Yet we still all know FS difficulty solutions are literally perfect and there's nothing wrong with them.

And we all know that because it has always been that way and if something is a certain way than changing it is obviously bad.

But I still love my gaymer brothers, I really do.

 

[Strange Fellow]

And here's the first retard with his thumbs down. Because we all know standard difficulty options are bad in FS games - even though literally zero people have had any problems with them in any other game they've ever played.

It's often hard to predict what different difficulty settings actually mean. Is Hard braindead easy, or is Normal just right? Depends on the developers' inscrutable opinions. So you may have to fiddle, if the game is too easy or too hard. Then later you might find that what you had actually taken as the game's overall level of difficulty at the setting you chose, was actually a section of the game that was designed to be a difficulty spike or a whatever the opposite of a difficulty spike is, and now you have to fiddle more.

The Souls games are pretty damn well calibrated to my particular leet gamer skillz, fortunately. If they're not calibrated to yours, too bad. The games are made for me and no one else.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Ravielsk Maybe the problem is with your definition of cheese.

Hell Swarm

Re: all the whining. I recommend trying to let go of the idea that you're supposed to be good at these games. Try to enter into the same mindstate you had when you first started with Souls games, when everything seemed impossible. You will have fun again.

What utter bullshit. My mentality is that I'm good at Souls games and I expect the game to challenge me with tough but fair boss fights. I expect to get stuck for an hour+ on a few fights and there will be bad hit box rage moments and a lot of sucker punches until I finally succeed. I'm having fun at times but I'm also not at others because From keep pushing boundaries for no reason. The Furnace golems are 100% pushed fire golems from the base game. 2 staggers to drop them would have been challenging, but it's 3 staggers and you have to drop them twice. When their jump is extremely difficult to dodge. It's not tough but fair at that point, it's bullet sponges with hard to dodge attacks who can 1 shot you if you try to run away from them.

I am seriously considering taking down big Mogh and hitting this DLC with a level 1 character. I think there's enough broken shit you can do to force your way through even at SL1 if you want to.

1h+ on few fights means game is too easy. And you keep repeating sponges which hasn't been at all my experience in this DLC. If anything the bosses I fought so far died too fast.

Not trying to internet tough guy here but I am probably in the top 1% of souls players. I've been at this since the original Demon's Souls and I've done challenge runs (and not youtubers spamming save states to reload bosses instantly challenge runs). If I get stuck on a boss for an hour that's a serious challenge for most people and getting stuck on the last one for nearly 10 is an unreasonable challenge for most players. I'm good at these games and I have the determination to grind it out even when I'm getting my ass kicked. I don't expect people who started with Elden ring to have an easy time even with the very first non-main boss you find to the left of the DLC entry point. I didn't expect people to have an easy time with a giant katana faggot who randomly iframes your shit and is hyper aggressive.

The DLC bosses are undeniably damage sponges. There's a reason why base game damage is basically quadrupled by the end of the DLC. If you don't go out of your way to get upgrade material you're going to be hitting like a wet sponge. Other than Rykard who has the serpent hunter to balance it the closest bosses in base game have a quarter less HP than the DLC bosses do. And they stay at the 40-45k point for most the DLC with you getting stronger to match them. There's ways to cheese them and 1 shot them but that's not part of the discussion because it's not how the game is being played by most people.

And the whole "bursting down" is your own clown defense as if playing the game normally is not possible, only skilled players struggling or noobs cheesing it.

Would you like to actually address the arguments made in those posts?

The furnace golems need to be staggered 6 times to kill them. They have a grab, a kick, a stamp (either leg) and a jump. They're extremely boring to fight and they have insane HP. This is the definition of a damage sponge when it could easily have been 2 or 4 staggers considering how bland they are.

The DLC is pushed to the moon but I am a good player because I've been playing these games since Demon's souls. So while I can quickly overcome these challenges I don't think it's reasonable to expect new players to see the DLC the same way -I- see the DLC. I could give someone Demon's souls and reasonably expect them to finish it with False king, Maneaters and Flame lurker presenting a serious challenge but still beatable. This DLC is so pushed it's not reasonable to expect an average gamer to beat it, which isn't a problem when it's side bosses or super bosses. It's a problem when the last boss makes Dark souls 3 look in slowmo and the "hard but fair" element is gone when half the attacks fill your screeen with garbage particles.

And here's the first retard with his thumbs down. Because we all know standard difficulty options are bad in FS games - even though literally zero people have had any problems with them in any other game they've ever played. And even though FS games with their novel reinvented wheels are literally THE ONLY action RPGs - or any games, really - where people keep mass-bitching about difficulty across the spectrum, from noobs who whine they're too hard to veterans who bitch they're too easy. Yet we still all know FS difficulty solutions are literally perfect and there's nothing wrong with them.

And we all know that because it has always been that way and if something is a certain way than changing it is obviously bad.

But I still love my gaymer brothers, I really do.

I don't think From need a difficulty setting. They need to reassess where the difficulty is in the game. They're constantly listening to the wrong people demanding harder and harder bosses and trying to find ways to push back against them in an arms race they can't win. Instead they should be easing back the combat difficulty and start increasing the exploration difficulty. Cut the bonfires in half and start making it dangerous to explore places instead of over the top enemies. Add arrow traps able to kill a player who doesn't pay attention. Make drop off points a risk/reward thing and not an excuse to have a jumping puzzle. Make the player act like an adventurer instead of a video game character doing a boss rush. There's still a lot of interesting design space left in the souls combat formula and it's not being used. From aren't even learning from other games in the genre like Nioh having different stances for weapons or Lies of P making weapons modular. These are great for expanding the player options without putting yet another box clutter weapon in a cave.

 

[processdaemon]

I wouldn't want Fromsoft to start adding extra difficulties because they seem to be struggling a bit with balancing the difficulty between playstyles as it is, and if there were two or (God forbid) three difficulty settings it would either become an clusterfuck that they would be patching until the end of time and/or increase the turnaround between games. It could end up being especially bad for people who prefer the current difficulty level because chances are a lot of new people would default to the lower difficulty setting and there's a risk that Fromsoft would burn a good amount of their resources optimising that instead.

If people want the game to be easier (or harder) they should mod or cheat, if they're playing single player I have no problem with that and it doesn't split Fromsoft's focus.

 

[cvv]

I wouldn't want Fromsoft to start adding extra difficulties because they seem to be struggling a bit with balancing the difficulty between playstyles as it is

Um, they're obviously struggling, yes - because they're committed to set one fixed, socialist difficulty, equal for all. That's where the struggle is coming from. Throw in their mixed PvP/PvE model (as opposed to literally every other game where PvP and PvE is always somehow separated), and the constant associated problems with poise and weapon/spell balance and you get the clusterfuck you're talking about.

 

[cvv]

They're constantly listening to the wrong people demanding harder and harder bosses and trying to find ways to push back against them in an arms race they can't win. Instead they should be easing back the combat difficulty and start increasing the exploration difficulty.

Yes but that's a separate difficulty problem. Even if they did that - and they obviously should - they'd still be stuck with mass complaints about the general difficulty.

Btw I wouldn't hold my breath about them emphasising exploration difficulty, the success of ER brought in a massive audience that seeks primarily the thrill and spectacle of boss battles and would likely prefer FS only making purely boss-rush games from now on. They're definitely not interested in getting lost in labyrinthine levels full of tough encounters.

After all look at what happened to Lords of the Fallen, a game that came out of the gate with exactly that model - very tough exploration difficulty vs. moderate boss difficulty. The ER audience absolutely hated it and thumbed it down into oblivion, even tho the devs tried their hardest to accommodate them, nerfing their game to the ground in the process and antagonizing the part of the audience that actually loved the original intent.

 

[Multidirectional]

Instead they should be easing back the combat difficulty and start increasing the exploration difficulty. Cut the bonfires in half and start making it dangerous to explore places instead of over the top enemies.

This I can get behind, going back closer to what DS 1/2 was would probably make me love these games again. When exploration started becoming easier and enemies increasingly more annoying I decided I'd rather just play proper combatfag games instead.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Btw I wouldn't hold my breath about them emphasising exploration difficulty, the success of ER brought a massive audience that seeks primarily the thrill and spectacle of boss battles and would prefer if FS only made purely boss-rush games from now on. They're definitely not interested in getting lost in labyrinthine levels full of tough encounters.

Dark souls 3 already brought that crowd in. ER didn't do anything new in terms of bosses. It just kept pushing deeper into Dark souls 3 with boring open world filler in betweem.

After all look at what happened to Lords of the Fallen, a game that came out of the gate with exactly that model - very tough exploration difficulty vs. moderate boss difficulty. The ER audience absolutely hated it and thumbed it down into oblivion, even tho the devs tried their hardest to accommodate them, nerfing their game to the ground in the process and antagonizing the part of the audience that actually loved the original intent.

Lords of the fallen's problem is it's a remake (maybe?) of an early souls game with no obvious push. If you're correct and it is about difficult exploration I'd love to play it, but I've seen barely anything about it and the original was.. okay?

This I can get behind, going back closer to what DS 1/2 was would probably make me love these games again. When exploration started becoming easier and enemies increasingly more annoying I decided I'd rather just play proper combatfag games instead.

What games have you been playing?

 

[Multidirectional]

What games have you been playing?

Lately mostly Nioh 2, got very addicted to it and now have 500+ hours on it. Learned to use almost every weapon, only 3 left I think. First game didn't grab me much, never even finished NG on it, but ever since starting sequel after finishing ER I cannot put it down for long. That one really clicked with me. And it felt like such a relief after a slog that was my ER run, having lots of fun powerful tools to destroy shit that aren't just some boring buff that lasts 10-20 seconds or some weapon art limited by mana pool. And the fact that fights vs multiple enemies are actually fun and not irritating clusterfuck like in Souls, that's a pretty big one for me. Before that played a bunch of DMC V, though never good enough to finish Dante Must Die. Final Fantasy Stranger of Paradise base game was also pretty enjoyable, didn't like the DLC though so dropped it there. Also played a bit of Vanquish for first time not long ago and it seemed quite fun, gonna go deeper into it once I can put down Nioh 2 for long enough. Guess I'll also have to play Dragon's Dogma 2 eventually, but need a CPU upgrade before I do that. Wo-Long too I guess, enjoyed couple levels of it that I played but couldn't get stable 60 FPS in fights no matter the settings so got butthurt about that and dropped it for now.

 

[cvv]

Lords of the fallen's problem is it's a remake (maybe?) of an early souls game with no obvious push. If you're correct and it is about difficult exploration I'd love to play it, but I've seen barely anything about it and the original was.. okay?

The nuLotF isn't a remake, just another game in the same world. And yes the title is retarded.

Level-design wise the game resembles DS1/DS2 the most, with even more labyrinthine, vertical levels and tougher enemy encounters. That's why many normies hated it, crying about "mob density", "too many ranged enemies" and "constantly getting lost". You probably haven't heard much about it because it was thumbed down for that reason - plus it came out more broken than a skeleton punched by a greathammer.

Oh and the original is indeed only "ok" but back then it was the only soulslike in the years after DS2 so even "ok" was great. Plus it had some genuinely great design ideas.

 

[Ravielsk]

Dunno, this whole debate is so retarded.

The real problem with FS games, difficulty-wise, is this:

- From refuses to implement normal difficulty options, therefore they have to set the "optimal" fixed difficulty, which is obviously an impossible and utterly imbecilic goal
- in ER they boxed themselves even further in the corner with their insistence to reinvent the wheel because in order to appease noobs they massively expanded the summoning feature and now anybody can just summon a Mimic that can solo 90% of the bosses, and 100% of the mandatory ones, while the host stands in the corner, heroically picking their nose. Therefore now the game is "easy" if you "use all the tools in your toolbox", you know?

In other words, 95% of FS games' problems stems from Fromsoft's resolve to come up with a better solution to difficulty - which most of the fanbase keeps cheering on despite the massive failure so far - and people WILL keep bitching about their games being too easy/too hard until they finally see that the only possible shape of the wheel is indeed round, instead of angular or spiral or whatever, and implement the only real solution invented decades ago - standard difficulty options.

Difficulty selection has nothing do with it really.

The real problem is that From simply does not communicate at all what they expect from the player. Take shields for example, are they the expected mode of play for everyone or an "optional" easy mode. I have to ask because when you have people essentially shutting down Radhan with the finger great shield I seriously have to question how intended is to basically turn off the bosses ability to deal damage. Especially when in the early game trying to play the blocking game usually gets you staggered and hit against even against weaker mobs.
Or how about stance breaking. Is it a bonus feature you may take advantage of to get some extra hits in or is it a intended way to deal with certain bosses? I have to aske because the game barely acknowledges its existence, does not show the stance meter like in Sekiro, nor does it show me stagger values on spells and weapons.
Same with parrying. Is it optional or expected that you will just parry certain enemies to death?
What about aromatics? Consumables? The flask tears? Weapon arts? Bows? Spells? Buffs?

Sure its all in the game but I have a hard time imagining a developer meeting where they put together a boss, his look, lore and moveset, estaminate it will take the team two weeks to make a prototype and then someone chimes in with "oh, and lets make sure the player can burst him down in 5 seconds with Comet Azure".

 

[abija]

Would you like to actually address the arguments made in those posts?

The furnace golems need to be staggered 6 times to kill them. They have a grab, a kick, a stamp (either leg) and a jump. They're extremely boring to fight and they have insane HP. This is the definition of a damage sponge when it could easily have been 2 or 4 staggers considering how bland they are.

Arguments for what? You project your experience as if it's the only way game was intended to be played. I only had to stagger the first golem I met twice. But I guess ancient dragon ls is another form of cheese.

When I argued with you in those posts I already beat Bayle before patch at 1 or 2 fragments and it was an absolut circus of a fight. Damage sponge is certainly the opposite of how that fight went for me.

You took the old meme, anyone below me is a scrub, anyone above a nolifer, to absolute new heights. Now the difficulty of the game needs to fit your experience, fuck adapting, designers are just shit. Same for the way the game is meant to be played. Anything different is either a noob or a wiki abuser.

The real problem is that From simply does not communicate at all what they expect from the player. Take shields for example, are they the expected mode of play for everyone or an "optional" easy mode. I have to ask because when you have people essentially shutting down Radhan with the finger great shield I seriously have to question how intended is to basically turn off the bosses ability to deal damage. Especially when in the early game trying to play the blocking game usually gets you staggered and hit against even against weaker mobs.

If someone stuck with a shield build and it happened to pay off at the final boss it's not some design mistake or some cheese from his part. If someone thought a shield might help him because he can't deal with the attacks, also fine. If someone spends 30 hours to learn all the boss moves, also fine.
Being a bitch that needs hand holding and constant reassurance seems to me the only issue.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I've been a consistent advocate that Elden Ring is a game of counters. This was a thing in Dark Souls 1 as well, Gwyn being weak to parry for instance, being able to knock Artorias out of his powerup phase, or that item that lets you block dark attacks from Manu.

With Elden Ring, they seem to have taken that to a new level. The question at this point would be to define exactly what constitutes "cheese". Is using parry on Rellana cheese? Why? What's the decisive factor here, the fact it makes the fight easier (allegedly)? The fact that if itsn't rolling, it's not valid? Who set that rule exactly?

This game has so many mechanics now, between status effects, the posture mechanic, parry, jumping, rolling, even the Sekiro deflection now and all the items that improve and buff all of those, plus all the weapon arts etc. FromSoft keeps giving the player tools to mess up bosses and enemies in new ways but there's still this general idea using any of those is somehow illegitimate.

"It's impossible to use rolls, and all the other ways that actually allow you to beat the boss are illegitimate, therefore game bad". Several unexplained assumptions in this line of thinking. That rolling should always be viable, or that all the other ways you can do it are not valid, to which one could ask, says who?