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Lyric Suite

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But anyway, whatever you think about that, it seems clear to me that they meant for you to use every tool at your disposal, and anything else is a self-imposed restriction. Didn't the grand moff Miyazaki himself say he's bad at the games and so makes use of every trick in the book?

But that's precisely what makes me think the possibility of playing as a SL1 was intentional, because the pyro hand actually makes up for the lost levels. You are not really penalized by chosing not to level the same way you are in all the other Souls games where they decided to ditch this idea in favor of the Wretch etc. Even at SL1, you can wield the exact same power as any other high level characters. You are just going about it in a different way.
 

Anonona

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Nothing preventing them from changing their mind later.
And nothing indicates that it was their intention either. But I'll say that common sense does point to any change being to "correct" or "improve" perceived flaws in their design, just as DS1 Estus Flasks were used to correct the problem of overabundance of curatives in Demon Souls. And specially when DS2 didn't abandon DS1 gameplay philosophy (slow and methodical combat) yet was the first one that received such a change. Not even ER has it, and of all "Souls" it is that prioritized the least "balance" in favour of freedom of build and its RPG systems.

So both conceptually and mechanically everything just points to the possibility for the player to be able to do this. The mechanics allow for it. The lore allow for it. How is it not intentional.

Not really. Because then how do you explain lightning infused weapons having the same quality despite lightning spell requiring investment in Faith? From's lore shouldn't really be taken too much into account when it comes to gameplay choices. Also you have more than enough souls to level the flame and your character, the cost is not so step. The only reason it is so expensive is that it doesn't require stones of any kind unlike weapons, so they had to balance with an higher soul cost.

But perhaps the biggest indicator that it wasn't meant to be used for SL1 is the fact that PVP exist and one of the biggest problems DS1 had was "twinking", where players used upgrade weapons, armors and/or pyromancy but stayed low SL and invaded low level players. This was a design flaw that From didn't take into account and that they tried to rectify on the next games, either by removing such options or adding mechanics like the infamous "soul memory". From never planned for players to stay low SL with upgraded equipment, because if they had, they would had taken measures to avoid the issue in PVP, which they started doing next games (and with the DLC I think, but I may be remembering wrong). Ergo, it is more logical to assume it was an accident instead of something intentional.

There is also the attunement mechanic, which meant that if you wanted more than 2-3 spells you needed to level it up. The fact that combustion spells were broken as shit doesn't mean From designed the system with the idea that the player would only use 2 spell at the time. Add the fact that Dex increases casting spell and there is even more reason to think that they did wanted the player to level up even if they are using pyromancy.


From's has always be a bit "sloopy" when it comes to fine tune their games. Happened something similar to AC3 when they introduced the "overheat" mechanic. It was intended to be a new type of damage while also a new element to take into account when designing mechs, but it was so ridiculously overtuned in AC3 that weapons with good heat damage dominated the game completely, and had to be balanced on the next installments. And that wasn't the only issues the AC3 saga had, as Nexus for example you only need to equip 2 chainguns and you pretty much won, and of course they were nerfed on the next versions. From games have a lot of "soul" (pun intended), but they had always been a bit clumsy when it comes to game design.
 
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Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Well, first, you need an alternative damage type in case fire doesn't work, so lighting was a good candidate for that (why doesn't lighting have faith scaling on weapons then?). Second, lighting in this game is associated with fire. Gywn, the Lord of "Cinders", Kiln of the "First Flame", whose soul can grant the player the "Sunlight" Spear, which does lighting damage though the sun is bourne out of fire etc. There's an association between the first flame and the fire of pyromancy, which if i remember was a result of the witches attempting to create a second flame.

Second, i would suggest that at the very least, there probably was an expectation that a pyromancer was going to be lower in level than other classes. That's because the player is given the choice to use souls either for their character or for the pyro glove, and it's not a given that everybody has the surplus necessary to level up both at the same time, certainly not in the early game. Even if they didn't think about the possibility of not leveling the pyro at all, there was at least an expectation a trade off had to be made, hence the need to bolster the resulting weakness in character level by offering a weapon infusion that didn't hinge on stat scaling. From there, it's a very small step to make from deciding not to level at all, or see how far one could get if one prioritizes the hand exclusively (as it turns out, you can make it all the way to the end).

The fact remains that Dark Souls 1 is the only Souls game where you can end up with a SL1 character that isn't in fact that far behind a regular character in terms of power.

As for PvP, i'm not entirely sure how much that would factor in here. I certainly don't think they expected twinks and it's not like the pyro is the only class that can be twinked out to harass low level players. I would also assume PvE was their first priority when designing the game, hence why it never even occurred to them to have a matchmaking for the weapon upgrades originally. They weren't expecting people would create low level characters with maxed weapons to go harass low level players.


There is also the attunement mechanic, which meant that if you wanted more than 2-3 spells you needed to level it up. The fact that combustion spells were broken as shit doesn't mean From designed the system with the idea that the player would only use 2 spell at the time. Add the fact that Dex increases casting spell and there is even more reason to think that they did wanted the player to level up even if they are using pyromancy.

It's not that they didn't "want" the player to level the pyro. It's more that they allowed for that possibility, which is a logical possibility given the inherent mechanism of the flame glove and the lore behind it. I mean i made that assumption way back then and back in the day i had zero clues SL1 runs were a thing and basically had no idea how anything in the game even worked. I just saw the pyro glove, saw that the pyro started at SL1 and instantly made the assumption it was a kind of alternative playstyle where you leveled the hand instead of the character. It just feels like an obvious leap of logic to make, especially since this was game known to be "very hard" so why wouldn't they tempt or dare the player to make an hard core choice (while making sure that option was still viable).

I mean, ultimately, ask yourself this. Why wasn't the deprived the SL1 class? Why the pyro specifically? If you don't consider the existence of the pyro hand and the way it works, one could say the choice was kinda of arbitrary. For all intended purposes, you could even say they had an expectation that people were going to try to do SL1 challenges, and normally they would pick the deprived to do it (as they do in all the other Souls games). So instead of making the deprived the SL1 class, they picked the pyro, the one class that can still be viable even at SL1, to sort of "soften" the path of trying to beat the game with a low level character.
 
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Anonona

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Second, i would suggest that at the very least, there probably was an expectation that a pyromancer was going to be lower in level than other classes [...] there was at least an expectation a trade off had to be made, hence the need to bolster the resulting weakness in character level by offering a weapon infusion that didn't hinge on stat scaling. From there, it's a very small step to make from deciding not to level at all, or see how far one could get if one prioritizes the hand exclusively (as it turns out, you can make it all the way to the end).

sorry for shortening the message, didn't want the post to occupy to much space
I can agree on From expecting the possibility of Pyro being lower level, even without facts to back it up it is not too hard to imagine. After all you have to sacrifice levels to upgrade the flame, and the fire/lightning weapons being there to compensate for lower offensive stat investment. I think they probably expected players to focus on HP, Stam, Max. load and Attun., but as it happens with any dedicated fanbase they started going for SL1 runs, and pyro was one, if not the easier SL1 option. I think it was more of a happy accident as Demon's Souls didn't really have anything equivalent, and it seems to me they ported a lot of the gameplay from DeS to DS1 but may have not think everything through.

I disagree on the lore reasons sadly. Even back then From addmited in some interviews to write the lore as they went along, it was never a priority and some "lore" issues are bound to happen.

As for PvP, i'm not entirely sure how much that would factor in here. I certainly don't think they expected twinks and it's not like the pyro is the only class that can be twinked out to harass low level players. I would also assume PvE was their first priority when designing the game.
Considering that the things that were changed (pyro, fire/lightning/chaos infusions) were the most popular on "twink" characters, while Raw, which was considered inferior in DS1, remained until ER, I'll say it probably was a big factor. I think the remaster may had put some kind of weapon matchmaking to try and combat it.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Don't forget pyro is the ONLY SL1 character in the game. The lowest one after it is the Cleric at SL2. All the others are higher than that, the highest being the deprived. I think that's kinda of interesting in lieu of the fact the deprived became the SL1 option thereafter in all future Souls games up to Elden Ring as well. I think the pyro may have been designed to soften that path, and they came out with a cool lore to justify it in game (which is why for me the pyro is the most interesting SL1 run in all Souls games, even if it is by far the easiest. Because the lore behind it is just too cool. When you are running around wearing rags with zero stats and yet you can still obliterate even end game bosses it's amazing conceptually).
 

Anonona

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I mean, ultimately, ask yourself this. Why wasn't the deprived the SL1 class? Why the pyro specifically?

There is a good mechanical reason, specially if you consider that it's total stats are still the same or almost the same as the other higher level classes despite being SL1; they are taking into account that they need to spend souls leveling their flame, so starting at the lowest level possible allows them to gain some stats cheaper than other classes while still having a very decent stat allocation that allow to go for multiple builds, which goes well with pyromancy as it can be used in pretty much any build. Very useful if they want to go for a specific weapon and need the minimum stat requirement without spending too many souls.

Plus having to level attunment, probably the reason magic classes start at lower levels, to compensate.

DS2 skipped the pyromancer class and only reappered in DS3, where the upgrades for pyromancy and other types catalyst were standarized to be similar to weapons and now it scaled with stats, so now it needed to be balanced as the other magic classes, as they no longer have the need to spend so many souls on it. Deprived being SL1 is probably just a way to make it the "blank state" class. Bloodborne actually had 2 of those and they seem to have gone with the same idea in DS2.

ps: Also Queelag. You cannot use pyromancy alone to kill her, specially at release. If the intention was to use Pyromancy alone they kind of dropped the ball there, probably need at least a raw weapon.
 
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Bloodeyes

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"Hey guys, only my third try. Watch me stack buffs and twice try to glitch the bosses attacks". How strange.. only 3 tries and yet you're acting like you've seen this boss fight before. While using meta builds.. It's all so 3 tries and absolutely no advanced information.
I'm just better at this game than you. Hard to believe I know. I don't know what the fuck you mean about glitching his attacks. My buffs were crab and physick. My build is my level 168 invasion build that I made throughout my playthrough. Its a 50 faith melee build that's made to be a heavy armored paladin/rogue that buffs pve before attacking coop players then runs off to heal with spells and ambush again.

The current meta is not prayerful strike. Its claws of night, backhand blades, rakshasa great katana, greatsword of damnation and impenetrable thorns. Sorry I know how to make a proper build you 40 vigor scrub PvE'r but ERPVP is my hobby and I have a Twitch channel devoted to it. It just so happens that good PvP builds are also generally good in PvE.
 

Hell Swarm

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SL1 runs "not" being a thing at the time can actually be shown to prove the point: what if SL1 runs became a thing BECAUSE of the pyro class?

Sorry Lyric, SL1 runs were happening but it was hard to stream the PS3 and uploading to youtube was a pain due to segment sizes. But there are a few SL1 videos floating around. The usual challenge run was +7 difficulty rather than SL1 though.
I'm just better at this game than you. Hard to believe I know. I don't know what the fuck you mean about glitching his attacks. My buffs were crab and physick. My build is my level 168 invasion build that I made throughout my playthrough. Its a 50 faith melee build that's made to be a heavy armored paladin/rogue that buffs pve before attacking coop players then runs off to heal with spells and ambush again.
And you just happened to know the directions to run to glitch Radahn's attacks.
I have a Twitch channel devoted to it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! What a fucking loser.
 

Bloodeyes

Arcane
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SL1 runs "not" being a thing at the time can actually be shown to prove the point: what if SL1 runs became a thing BECAUSE of the pyro class?

Sorry Lyric, SL1 runs were happening but it was hard to stream the PS3 and uploading to youtube was a pain due to segment sizes. But there are a few SL1 videos floating around. The usual challenge run was +7 difficulty rather than SL1 though.
I'm just better at this game than you. Hard to believe I know. I don't know what the fuck you mean about glitching his attacks. My buffs were crab and physick. My build is my level 168 invasion build that I made throughout my playthrough. Its a 50 faith melee build that's made to be a heavy armored paladin/rogue that buffs pve before attacking coop players then runs off to heal with spells and ambush again.
And you just happened to know the directions to run to glitch Radahn's attacks.
I have a Twitch channel devoted to it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! What a fucking loser.

I still don't know what you mean about glitching his attacks. My fight against him was a complete mess where I bashed through most things with prayerful strike and tried to roll what had broken my hyper armor in my first attempts. I ran away from his phase transition the first time, failed to do it the other times and I ran in to his flying attack. That's all the running I recall doing. My kill on him wasn't a master class in skill, but that's not really my point. Shit players are complaining this boss is unfairly hard. I am an average to bad player within my friend group (still far better than a crybaby scrub like you), yet I bodied him without having to learn him properly just by having a sensibly made build and choosing the right weapon and talis from my loadout. Also by having the common sense to try and move out of the way of his big attacks which is apparently glitching. OK buddy.

Having a Twitch channel is a better hobby than being a cryhard on the Codex by the way. I really enjoy what I do and like the people I have met doing it. Its not something you could possibly shame me for.

Edit: Yeah I just rewatched the fight. At no point do I do anything that could remotely be considered glitching. You're full of shit and coping because you are bad.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Sorry Lyric, SL1 runs were happening

That wasn't my argument though. I was responding to someone else who suggested SL1 weren't a thing.

My own belief is that they created the pyro BECAUSE they were a thing in Demon Soul. They saw it happen, and respond to it by allowing for that possibility with mechanics and lore to support it. If they later changed their minds it could be because they saw people did want the challenge, and didn't want it to be "viable" (I.E., relatively close to normal play) like the pyro was, which is a shame for me because like is said i really liked the idea conceptually (and it should be obvious by now that i'm big on LARPing).

SL1 runs are a particular form of challenge that suggests itself naturally. Even when i was new to Souls and still sucked i was already considering the possibility of "capping" my level at some point (nothing worse in an RPG when you overlevel the content, which makes the game boring). I found a convenient excuse when i learned there was such a thing as PvP "meta" levels, which i used as a target even though i did no PvP.

SL1 runs suggest themselves logically since leveling or not leveling is a way to control the difficulty of the game for most people. That's why i don't think they belong in the same category as no rolling runs, no bonfire runs etc. MAYBE no death runs are equally as logical or natural, which is why in DS2 they put an achievement for it, but that's too much of a tall order to be really considered "possible" for a normal player even with all the concessions in the world.
 
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Silverfish

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Dark souls got a massive rebalancing when the DLC came out. They almost tripled the amount of souls dropping and made it much easier to get hold of upgrade materials. Pyro was not intended to suck up all your souls because originally you had to really pick how to spend them. They didn't give you excess souls to dump into equipment until the DLC dropped and they dumbed the game down for faggots like you.

For the longest time, I had only ever played Dark Souls on an offline PS3, so I was unaware of just how drastic the changes were until Remastered came out. 'Dumbed down' is underselling it. When bosses go from dropping 1500 to 10,000 souls, even Todd Howard thinks that shit is too casual.

For me it is obvious that they anticipated or "allowed" for the possibility of a SL1 run. I don't know how Demon Souls worked but i wouldn't be surprised if they saw people were doing SL1 runs and said to themselves "wouldn't it be cool if we actually designed the game to allow for that possibility?".

Not only was SL1 fully intended as a way of playing Demon's Souls, it's even baked into the story. The final boss went overkill empowering himself with souls and ended up as a harmless blob. For a normal playthrough it's meant to be a "there, but for the grace of God, go I" scenario.

After all, they seem to regret the choice of making the flame scale only with its level so they changed it in DS 2 and 3, now necessitating INT and/or Faith

Sort of. In DS2, pyromancy has scaling with intelligence and faith, but the gains from stat scaling are far less impressive than what you see from upgrading the pyro flame directly, meaning attunement is really all you need, especially since pyro spells don't have stat requirements, just as in the previous game. DS3 did overhaul pyromancy, giving spells requirements and having them dish out a lot less damage without scaling, but I'd argue that was more about that game's general disdain for magic users than balancing pyro specifically.

From never planned for players to stay low SL with upgraded equipment, because if they had, they would had taken measures to avoid the issue in PVP, which they started doing next games

Souls pvp was envisioned as something very different than what it's ultimately become. Trolling and griefing were absolutely the original intent and it took years of community whining to get From to change course.

The usual challenge run was +7 difficulty rather than SL1 though.

Or both.

 

Hell Swarm

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Having a Twitch channel is a better hobby than being a cryhard on the Codex by the way. I really enjoy what I do and like the people I have met doing it. Its not something you could possibly shame me for.
Okay groomer. I'm sure your twitch 'friends' are really swell people.
Edit: Yeah I just rewatched the fight. At no point do I do anything that could remotely be considered glitching. You're full of shit and coping because you are bad.
You clearly did. There's intentional movement causing attacks to fail. And it's really obvious once you spot it. But sure thing buddy.
For the longest time, I had only ever played Dark Souls on an offline PS3, so I was unaware of just how drastic the changes were until Remastered came out. 'Dumbed down' is underselling it. When bosses go from dropping 1500 to 10,000 souls, even Todd Howard thinks that shit is too casual.
I think it's the gargoyles go from 1200 souls to 10,000 isn't it? They made mid tier upgrades buyable when they weren't before. Enemy locations change, aggro ranges are hugely reduced. There's some utterly broken things you can do in the base game to trivialize it still (as you can with all games) but a normal play through (fuck off Lyric) it's significantly harder.
 

Odoryuk

Educated
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Mar 26, 2024
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If Pyromancer class was supposed to be SL1 only, they'd disable levelling for this class.
If low level playthroughs were never thought about by the devs, they'd just add auto levelling like in other games.
 

Bloodeyes

Arcane
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Jan 30, 2007
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why are you so angry all the time, is only game
I'm not angry. I think it's funny Twitch groomer has golden vow on his bar and says he isn't using buffs lol.
What do you have against golden vow? If I had used it in the fight would it be a problem? I use golden vow in my invasions to buff PvE. I also buff myself with it in the process. Sometimes I use it in boss fights too. Guess what? Sometimes when I'm feeling really frisky I stack it with the ash of war on my offhand sword of light for a minute long 20% boost to my holy damage. I'm a fucking paladin of course I buff. When you said I was buff stacking I assumed you meant in the fight. You know, because that's what we were fucking talking about?

You can see in the vid I use crab and my physick (opaline hardtear and crimson bubbletear, generic PvP physick for meta level and above). Would it be a problem for you if I had used vow as well? I just couldn't be bothered because I thought I would have to do the fight a lot of times, so I didn't put on many buffs.
 

Bloodeyes

Arcane
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Jan 30, 2007
Messages
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I would be proud of this win but the fact I buffed beforehand invalidates it. It seems unfair but I don't make the rules:



I also moved intentionally to defeat their attacks. Clearly I practiced this fight beforehand many times.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
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I would be proud of this win but the fact I buffed beforehand invalidates it. It seems unfair but I don't make the rules:



I also moved intentionally to defeat their attacks. Clearly I practiced this fight beforehand many times.

No leveling, no upgrading, bare fist only, no buffs or you didn't beat the game Twitch boy!
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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That's retarded and pointless. I remember catching a stream of a guy doing a no-hit with fists only on Malenia. Took him about three hours. I skipped to the end and when he pulled it off he didn't even move. Probably spend a million hours trying it so by the time he did it he was completely jaded and bored by the game.

I much prefer someone like Ongbal who makes the fights look entertaining, has spectacle and finds clever ways to use unusual skills or spells etc. A lot of it is just flash for the sake of flash but at least there's an art to it and looks fun to do.
 

Hell Swarm

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That's retarded and pointless. I remember catching a stream of a guy doing a no-hit with fists only on Malenia. Took him about three hours. I skipped to the end and when he pulled it off he didn't even move. Probably spend a million hours trying it so by the time he did it he was completely jaded and bored by the game.

I much prefer someone like Ongbal who makes the fights look entertaining, has spectacle and finds clever ways to use unusual skills or spells etc. A lot of it is just flash for the sake of flash but at least there's an art to it and looks fun to do.
You just aren't good enough. If you can't 3 hit kill a boss with your buff stack your ADHD kicks in and you find a way to cheese it.
 

Anonona

Learned
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Probably spend a million hours trying it so by the time he did it he was completely jaded and bored by the game.
You don't get it man, he just reached Souls' nirvana, he finally 'got gut'. He is beyond regular emotions, his minds just dodge roll out of their way.
 

Bloodeyes

Arcane
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Jan 30, 2007
Messages
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That's retarded and pointless. I remember catching a stream of a guy doing a no-hit with fists only on Malenia. Took him about three hours. I skipped to the end and when he pulled it off he didn't even move. Probably spend a million hours trying it so by the time he did it he was completely jaded and bored by the game.

I much prefer someone like Ongbal who makes the fights look entertaining, has spectacle and finds clever ways to use unusual skills or spells etc. A lot of it is just flash for the sake of flash but at least there's an art to it and looks fun to do.
I've got respect for someone with the patience to do something like that. Its not fun to watch them suffering though. I know a guy who did no scadutree fragments on his first run. He was not fun to be around when doing it. Same guy did RL1 no upgrades in the base game. His streams were just hours and hours of suffering and swearing. Amazing player but I think he's an actual masochist.
 

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