From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Ravielsk]

Should you have the expectation of beating every boss in a souls game? Millennia is a completely broken mess and shouldn't be the way she is (instagib moves + healing + hyper armour + 2 phases, fuck multi phase bosses). But she's also in a hidden area inside a hidden area. What expectations should we have players have of beating every boss in the game? There are other RPGs where the hidden bosses are utterly busted and not expected to be beaten by any one but the severely autistic (Demifiend in DDS, Final fantay has a few). At what point is a boss like Millennia a problem with player expectations and not an intentionally over designed boss pushed too far and ending up in the mess we have?

There is a theory going around that Melania and the whole area she is in was originally envisioned as DLC content that was being worked on simultaneously with the main game but then was for whatever reason included in the final game in a somewhat unfinished state. I am inclined to believe it because as big as Elden Ring its not really a game you play for the open world but for the "legacy" dungeons(strange to call them that when without them the game would not be worth playing). From probably realized that having a total of about 5 actual levels in the game, especially when absence of those levels would again create huge lore holes, was not going to cut it so they shuffled in everything they had instead of slowly finishing the game with DLC(which already did not work out twice with Sekiro and Bloodborne).

 

[Damned Registrations]

5 actual levels in the game

Dude what are you smoking? Do people actually believe this?

Off the top of my head:

Stormveil
The one in the south with the misbegoten
The Academy
The manor north of it
Volcano manor and the village around it.
That busted castle with the perfumers.
Leyndell
The Sewers
Mohg Palace
Redahn's Castle
Haligrtree
Nokron
Farum Azula

This isn't even counting more minor places like Selia, Castle Sol, the Study hall or that busted divine tower. Honestly I'd include some of the larger minor places too, like the cave shortcut to altus, or the hero graves, which tend to be a lot larger than normal side dungeons.

You skipped every cave, tomb, mine, village and outpost in the game, you'd still have a fuckton of content.

 

[Alrik]

5 actual levels in the game

Dude what are you smoking? Do people actually believe this?

Off the top of my head:

Stormveil
The one in the south with the misbegoten
The Academy
The manor north of it
Volcano manor and the village around it.
That busted castle with the perfumers.
Leyndell
The Sewers
Mohg Palace
Redahn's Castle
Haligrtree
Nokron
Farum Azula

This isn't even counting more minor places like Selia, Castle Sol, the Study hall or that busted divine tower. Honestly I'd include some of the larger minor places too, like the cave shortcut to altus, or the hero graves, which tend to be a lot larger than normal side dungeons.

You skipped every cave, tomb, mine, village and outpost in the game, you'd still have a fuckton of content.

All the underground areas are arguably coherent sequences of levels and the reason I've yet to skip Ranni's quest on a playthrough.

I'd demote Redmane to your Castle Sol tier though and it's probably the worst of the castles as it suffers from the Leyndell problem of a lack of a coherent path with scattered enemies so you're mostly checking disconnected rooms (or alleys in the case of Leyndell). As someone who has just tried Bloodborne for the first time, the difference in quality between Central Yharnam and Leyndell is immense.

 

[Child of Malkav]

From what I read online chances are she is literary just a Sekiro boss ported over to Elden Ring. Modders are under the assumption that she is just retooled Tomoe who was cut from Sekiro.

It's pretty much confirmed at this point with how stupid the fight is.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Should you have the expectation of beating every boss in a souls game? Millennia is a completely broken mess and shouldn't be the way she is (instagib moves + healing + hyper armour + 2 phases, fuck multi phase bosses). But she's also in a hidden area inside a hidden area. What expectations should we have players have of beating every boss in the game? There are other RPGs where the hidden bosses are utterly busted and not expected to be beaten by any one but the severely autistic (Demifiend in DDS, Final fantay has a few). At what point is a boss like Millennia a problem with player expectations and not an intentionally over designed boss pushed too far and ending up in the mess we have?

There is a theory going around that Melania and the whole area she is in was originally envisioned as DLC content that was being worked on simultaneously with the main game but then was for whatever reason included in the final game in a somewhat unfinished state. I am inclined to believe it because as big as Elden Ring its not really a game you play for the open world but for the "legacy" dungeons(strange to call them that when without them the game would not be worth playing). From probably realized that having a total of about 5 actual levels in the game, especially when absence of those levels would again create huge lore holes, was not going to cut it so they shuffled in everything they had instead of slowly finishing the game with DLC(which already did not work out twice with Sekiro and Bloodborne).

I doubt it's true but if it is then From is an utter mess. Finishing a full DLC area and bosses while your most iconic NPC's quest line has to be patched in months later.

 

[Ravielsk]

I doubt it's true but if it is then From is an utter mess. Finishing a full DLC area and bosses while your most iconic NPC's quest line has to be patched in months later.

There is no need to overdramatize this. What most likely happened is that first they made the world, dungeons, animations and so on with NPC quests being at the very tail end of development so when came the time to ship(which is a couple months before release date because you need to print discs for the consoles) certain quests were simply not finalized and so had to be added in a patch.

Also the Haligtree is not really a full DLC area. Its a finished level in terms of geometry but outside of Malenia herself everything in it is just recycled base game enemies. Which about half the reason why people assume it was being worked on as DLC because while its huge its also mostly just recycled content you already saw a everywhere. Its both too big for a simple "hidden" area like Cainhurst but also too barren for a main game legacy dungeon.

That said I see it as From getting better not worse. If the DLC theory is correct than that means they are at the very least learning from the mistakes with Sekiro and Bloodborne where they clearly counted with DLCs being a thing but we all know how that turned out. Sekiro got just a minor costume update and Bloodborne had its two DLCs fused into one, a solid one but still only one. So them for once not relying on DLC bring over about a quarter of content is a positive change for once.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

All the underground areas are arguably coherent sequences of levels and the reason I've yet to skip Ranni's quest on a playthrough.

Yes, the sprawling underground areas constitute a large portion of the substantial proper levels, with the others being large dungeon-like locations:

• Castle Morne
• Stormveil Castle
• Ainsel River / Uhl Palace Ruins
• Raya Lucaria Academy
• Caria Manor
• Siofra River
• Nokron Eternal City
• Ainsel River / Nokstella
• The Shaded Castle
• Lake of Rot
• Volcano Manor
• Leyndell proper
• Deeproot Depths
• Subterranean Shunning-Grounds

Perhaps also Farum Azula, Moghwyn Palace, and the Haligtree / Elphael

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

There is no need to overdramatize this. What most likely happened is that first they made the world, dungeons, animations and so on with NPC quests being at the very tail end of development so when came the time to ship(which is a couple months before release date because you need to print discs for the consoles) certain quests were simply not finalized and so had to be added in a patch.

We're not talking a day 1 patch. We're talking Patches the NPC disappeared from your game entirely if you did his quest line. He was added to another location later where he hands you an item and returns to his cave. Elden Ring has been out a long time now and Patches treatment is unacceptable. Seeing how Patches is going to fuck me over is one of the reasons I play From games. He's always been a highlight and I expect more from the biggest selling game of the year than an npc quest line removing him from your game if you try and complete it.

 

[Cheesedragon117]

Malenia being from Sekiro has to be one of the weirdest conspiracy theories that Souls fans have ever gaslit themselves into believing. Especially considering the severe lack of hard evidence, save for a single similar attack shared between the games.

And the strange thing is, the general Souls fanbase used to be a lot better at thinking for themselves, back when news of these games was primarily transmitted through word of mouth. Now the latest vague conjecture posted on YouTube about the world, story, and behind-the-scenes details is seemingly take as gospel truth.

 

[mediocrepoet]

And the strange thing is, the general Souls fanbase used to be a lot better at thinking for themselves,

Vaati would like to have a word with you.

 

[Ravielsk]

He's always been a highlight and I expect more from the biggest selling game of the year than an npc quest line removing him from your game if you try and complete it.

Fair enough. I kind feel out of the loop after finishing the game but yes from a cursory overlook even the current patched version of his quest is clearly a quick hack job as all they changed is that they reset him to his previous state, also his connection with lady tanith feels like yet another case of cut content so yeah I should look into what new things have been discovered.

Malenia being from Sekiro has to be one of the weirdest conspiracy theories that Souls fans have ever gaslit themselves into believing. Especially considering the severe lack of hard evidence, save for a single similar attack shared between the games.

I will admit that most of the evidence is purely circumstantial but goes far beyond just one shared attack. First is the clear idiosyncrasy of her being a katana user in a world that explicitly states that the Asiatic country equivalent of ER has closed it self off from the rest of the world. Second is that she has a bunch of unused animations very reminiscent of Sekiro. And finally she is just a weirdly made boss because if you go up against her with a lighter weapon she presents a bizzare jump in difficulty but if you jump her with a heavier weapon like the moonlight sword she is a complete push over that basically cannot even really hit you(which in lore makes it extremely questionable how was she ever competition for Radhan).

If nothing, it all points to her at least being inspired by Sekiro bosses as all her problems more or less wholly fit the bill for a Sekiro boss transported into a Souls setting.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Fair enough. I kind feel out of the loop after finishing the game but yes from a cursory overlook even the current patched version of his quest is clearly a quick hack job as all they changed is that they reset him to his previous state, also his connection with lady tanith feels like yet another case of cut content so yeah I should look into what new things have been discovered.

I spent hours looking for that bastard as well. There were groups trying to find him for hundreds of hours because Elden ring map had no NPC names on it yet and he literally just vanished after Volcano manor.

And finally she is just a weirdly made boss because if you go up against her with a lighter weapon she presents a bizzare jump in difficulty but if you jump her with a heavier weapon like the moonlight sword she is a complete push over that basically cannot even really hit you(which in lore makes it extremely questionable how was she ever competition for Radhan).

She's easy enough to stagger with a light weapon. Her random hyper armor will fuck you either way. Remember Heavy weapons had to be severely buffed a while after release because they could barely touch her. The go to strat was using a bleed weapon and minic tier to keep her stun locked as you bled her out.

 

[Ezekiel]

Still haven't bought it, still think about it sometimes.

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Armor

Fashion Souls sucks. All so bland. Miss the sex-specific designs in Demon's Souls, how Fluted, Leather, Black Leather, Plated all had different designs for the women, who seemed to have slightly different shoulders if I remember correctly. Why are there so many long, heavy-looking rags in modern Souls? Rags! Tiny heads still pisses me off too. Proportions are completely fucked. Your faces are best... not seen.

 

[Caim]

Still haven't bought it, still think about it sometimes.

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Armor

Fashion Souls sucks. All so bland. Miss the sex-specific designs in Demon's Souls, how Fluted, Leather, Black Leather, Plated all had different designs for the women, who seemed to have slightly different shoulders if I remember correctly. Why are there so many long, heavy-looking rags in modern Souls? Rags! Tiny heads still pisses me off too. Proportions are completely fucked. Your faces are best... not seen.

Another thing to note is how fucked the progression is. There are four armor sets who share the rank of third highest physical defense in the game. This is how you get them:

- Banished Knight (pieces drom from very early game enemies that are a bit tough at that point)
- Tree Sentinel (found as a reward in a tricky midgame dungeon)
- General Radahn Set (bought after defeating a boss towards the midgame for 36k, just over half of what you get for beating that boss)
- Veteran Set (bought after defeating a lategame boss for 18k, a fifth of what said boss drops)

The most powerful set can only be gotten after beating an enemy you encounter during a quest, and the second most powerful requires grinding a tough enemy in the midgame.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Still haven't bought it, still think about it sometimes.

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Armor

Fashion Souls sucks. All so bland. Miss the sex-specific designs in Demon's Souls, how Fluted, Leather, Black Leather, Plated all had different designs for the women, who seemed to have slightly different shoulders if I remember correctly. Why are there so many long, heavy-looking rags in modern Souls? Rags! Tiny heads still pisses me off too. Proportions are completely fucked. Your faces are best... not seen.

Another thing to note is how fucked the progression is. There are four armor sets who share the rank of third highest physical defense in the game. This is how you get them:

- Banished Knight (pieces drom from very early game enemies that are a bit tough at that point)
- Tree Sentinel (found as a reward in a tricky midgame dungeon)
- General Radahn Set (bought after defeating a boss towards the midgame for 36k, just over half of what you get for beating that boss)
- Veteran Set (bought after defeating a lategame boss for 18k, a fifth of what said boss drops)

The most powerful set can only be gotten after beating an enemy you encounter during a quest, and the second most powerful requires grinding a tough enemy in the midgame.

It's unfortunately a feature not a bug. They want each play through to have random loot drops so you're not just min/maxing the best stuff you can get. It's a nice idea in practice but in reality it can fuck off. I'm not grinding an enemy to get the 3% sword drop I need. Fuck that. There needs to be ways to force drop rates or drop rates shouldn't be below like 25% for unique equipment.

 

[Caim]

Still haven't bought it, still think about it sometimes.

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Armor

Fashion Souls sucks. All so bland. Miss the sex-specific designs in Demon's Souls, how Fluted, Leather, Black Leather, Plated all had different designs for the women, who seemed to have slightly different shoulders if I remember correctly. Why are there so many long, heavy-looking rags in modern Souls? Rags! Tiny heads still pisses me off too. Proportions are completely fucked. Your faces are best... not seen.

Another thing to note is how fucked the progression is. There are four armor sets who share the rank of third highest physical defense in the game. This is how you get them:

- Banished Knight (pieces drom from very early game enemies that are a bit tough at that point)
- Tree Sentinel (found as a reward in a tricky midgame dungeon)
- General Radahn Set (bought after defeating a boss towards the midgame for 36k, just over half of what you get for beating that boss)
- Veteran Set (bought after defeating a lategame boss for 18k, a fifth of what said boss drops)

The most powerful set can only be gotten after beating an enemy you encounter during a quest, and the second most powerful requires grinding a tough enemy in the midgame.

It's unfortunately a feature not a bug. They want each play through to have random loot drops so you're not just min/maxing the best stuff you can get. It's a nice idea in practice but in reality it can fuck off. I'm not grinding an enemy to get the 3% sword drop I need. Fuck that. There needs to be ways to force drop rates or drop rates shouldn't be below like 25% for unique equipment.

Dark Souls 2 was pretty terrible at this, with one of the worst offenders being the Monstary Set (low drop chance that appears on a specific phantom that appears only once, so have fun with ascetics and hope for the best.

Elden Ring can be pretty terrible as well: if you want something like the Celebrant's Rib-Rake (a spear with underwhelming damage that as a special effect gives you 10 runes ber hit you land) you're looking at a base drop rate of 0.5%. Reminder that your drop rate starts at 100% of the base rate plus 1 per level of Arcane, plus 50 for the fowl foot and plus 75 for the ring (which you won't get until you head for the Snowfield).

So have fun!

 

[Ezekiel]

I have no idea what's going on.

Pretty, but looks washed out. Like a modern Roger Deakins movie, whose work I don't care much for. (I have never seen fire so dim as in 1917.)

If I can't read the item description when I pick it up, I probably won't bother. Figure it out, From!

Wish they dropped this lock-on system for the superior one from Zelda.

Wouldn't Souls multiplayer make more sense in a science fiction setting, where the adventure is played in an infinite number of parallel universes, with some technobabble reason for them intersecting?

Parry is dumb. It has always been.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Wouldn't Souls multiplayer make more sense in a science fiction setting, where the adventure is played in an infinite number of parallel universes, with some technobabble reason for them intersecting?

This is the reason for the saying "six of one, half dozen of the other."

That's literally just a personal preference on your part. You prefer some BS sciencey explanation instead of, the gods are dying and reality itself is unraveling. Meh.

Edit: I actually thought I was replying to a Dark Souls thread but the point stands. ER always felt basically like a re-riff of Dark Souls with an elder God alien invasion and set in an earlier era where things hadn't gone to shit quite as much yet.

 

[gabel]

Souls multiplayer is a tacked on DRM mechanism and complete shit anyway.
If you want PVP, play Quake, Broodwar or something else skill-based.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Souls multiplayer is a tacked on DRM mechanism and complete shit anyway.
If you want PVP, play Quake, Broodwar or something else skill-based.

He's talking about setting and lore and the point would remain with the seeing other players' ghosts even if there were no other interactions. Seems to me you're completely missing the point.

 

[Ezekiel]

Camera rotation speed is weird. Slow if you hold the stick even slightly the wrong way.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Wouldn't Souls multiplayer make more sense in a science fiction setting, where the adventure is played in an infinite number of parallel universes, with some technobabble reason for them intersecting?

Thats already the excuse. It's science fiction as it is.

You might enjoy Hell point if you're looking for a souls game with sci fi setting.

He's talking about setting and lore and the point would remain with the seeing other players' ghosts even if there were no other interactions. Seems to me you're completely missing the point.

The ghost system was used for tutorials too. It's designed as a support mechanic for devs and plauers

 

[Ezekiel]

Said it before, but bears repeating in a thread actually about a Souls game.

Ocarina of Time got lock-on right over twenty years before FromSoftware continues to get it wrong. By assigning it to the back button or left bumper/trigger instead of R3, you can strafe and run backwards even when there is no target. Let the player decide if the camera moves behind the character when it's pressed and there is no target and let them switch targets with a second stick as is common now and it's perfect. Only reason FromSoftware does it the way they do is because controllers never evolved with the shift to orbital cameras and heavy use of aiming. You can't easily use the face buttons anymore because every game now uses the right stick so much. But pressing L1 or L2 to target was common back then. Metal Gear Solid 3 did this too, since it originally came out with only the "fixed" camera. Snake can strafe and run backwards just like Link when there is no target. FromSoftware could try opening up the field of view more for a proper L1 targeting system with attacks on the face buttons. That or allow the player to strafe and move backwards by holding the parry/block button. That might seem redundant with R3 already locking on, but how often are you people really turning left and right with the shield up? Do you really need to? Imagine skeleton archers shooting at you from across a chasm and then running sideways along your path while keeping your shield up, still able to see where you are running, the camera still free. Not targeting them, but just defending yourself as you strafe with L1. Would prefer Zelda's system, though, since it also allows for different attacks including thrusts depending on how you hold the stick and holding feels more natural than toggling.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Zeldas camera is inconsistent and often puts Link between the camera and enemies in a way that blocks your vision or changes to awkward sideways angles.

I often turn corners with a shield up.

If you can't use the face buttons then why do so many games do it? Almost every fps on controller still reloads with Square. Souls likes roll with circle. TOTK's control scheme putting jump in Triangle and run on X is awkward at best and downright shit at worst. R1 being throw weapon instead of a functional button is also quite annoying... So nah. Zeldas controls and camera suck. I'm not one to defend From's camera but lock on is not the problem. It needs work and improvements but Zelda did it worse.

 

[Ezekiel]

Zeldas camera is inconsistent and often puts Link between the camera and enemies in a way that blocks your vision or changes to awkward sideways angles.

I often turn corners with a shield up.

If you can't use the face buttons then why do so many games do it? Almost every fps on controller still reloads with Square. Souls likes roll with circle. TOTK's control scheme putting jump in Triangle and run on X is awkward at best and downright shit at worst. R1 being throw weapon instead of a functional button is also quite annoying... So nah. Zeldas controls and camera suck. I'm not one to defend From's camera but lock on is not the problem. It needs work and improvements but Zelda did it worse.

Reloading in shooters is very brief. To use your logic, why don't any shooters map shooting to a face button? Not just because R1/R2 more accurately emulates the feel of a trigger, but because it would be pretty inconvenient with how much you have to move the camera.

Zelda's lock-on cam has problems, but the button interface which is what I'm talking about is more logical. R3 sucks.