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Fallout Fallout 3 isn’t as bad as you think...

__scribbles__

Novice
Joined
Jul 5, 2022
Messages
56
The game does more than enough to flesh out the Legion as more as a horde of barbaric enslavers and crucifiers. Not as much as it fleshes out the NCR, but certain enough.
It's night and day between the NCR and Legion. The NCR gets multiple NPCs and quests highlighting its flaws and counterarguments to democracy and how brahmin-barons have too much power, together with locations and conversations relating to agriculture, economy, and food. The Legion gets a trader and a monologue.
And thankfully so. Imagine that shit being given away for free. It totally ruins the early-game playthrough. And like I said, it's not needed whatsoever, hardly "pay to win". It's unsustainable as an argument.
You pay for equipment that trivializes the early-mid game. That's pay-to-win. And it's not necessary? That isn't a defense. I can choose not to do the bad quests in the game, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. We can't judge a game's quality if we deliberately omit its flaws.
The player is the Courier. That's the one thing New Vegas did right. Instead of forcing the player to play the role of someone who loves their community (FO1, FO2, FO3), the player is given free will to do as they please. If the player feels involved in the main quest, then that's all justification you need to do it.
If you don't feel involved, then don't do it.
It doesn't matter if the player feels involved, it's that the NCR and Legion will ALWAYS pardon the player and invite them to work with them, even if you worked against them, for them, or ignored them. They don't have a consistent or justifiable reason to get the player to work with them. My courier might only want Benny and doesn't care at all about the fate of the Mojave, or a criminal who does everything for a political reason, and I'll still get the same message from the factions.
In Fallout 1/2/3 you, the player, and you, the character, at least had a surface-level connection with your objective. Introducing the wasteland and the plot through a believable setup, and you built your character in whatever way you wanted off of that base(Hell, you could even join the Master in Fallout 1 and got a unique ending for it). New Vegas doesn't give a believable motivation for you or your character like the other games. It might sound liberating or freer, but it also means that the player literally has to invent their own reason to care about the plot.
And as I said before, ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.
There's so much shit going on in New Vegas that what you are asking would make it the best RPG ever made, bar none.
Fallout didn't do it, so why hold it against New Vegas (a much bigger game)?
I'm not asking for New Vegas to react to every little choice your character makes, but I am asking for not every situation being set up in a way that requires a third-party intervention to break the Status Quo, which almost EVERYTHING in New Vegas is. And if questions like "What if two enemies right next to each other fought each other" are too complex for it, then it should be more focused.
Even if it falters a lot in the side-quests, Fallout had urgency and pressure for the player to complete the main quest and had consequences for neglecting them. That's why Fallout generally gets a pass, even if it feels pretty artificial in situations like Gizmo vs. Killian.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,359
It's night and day between the NCR and Legion. The NCR gets multiple NPCs and quests highlighting its flaws and counterarguments to democracy and how brahmin-barons have too much power, together with locations and conversations relating to agriculture, economy, and food. The Legion gets a trader and a monologue.

And many NPCs making comments on Legion life, as much as you can get considering they haven't lived in Legion occupied territory.

You pay for equipment that trivializes the early-mid game. That's pay-to-win.

You don't even compete against other players in the game, how the hell is that pay-to-win?

It doesn't matter if the player feels involved, it's that the NCR and Legion will ALWAYS pardon the player and invite them to work with them, even if you worked against them, for them, or ignored them. They don't have a consistent or justifiable reason to get the player to work with them.

It's justified in-game as to why this happens. You are the most resourceful person in the wasteland by far, why wouldn't they want to have you on their side?

Meanwhile, I am to believe that my character is willing to go against an army of Super Mutants, the remnants of the U.S. government, and a mix of both (FO3) as a teenager? Yeah, right.

Even if it falters a lot in the side-quests, Fallout had urgency and pressure for the player to complete the main quest and had consequences for neglecting them.

An urgency that simply doesn't exist in Fallout: New Vegas because, as I said, it is up to the player to complete the main quest or not. Meanwhile, FO1's main quest relies on the investment of your Vault Dweller, which requires thus some sort of gameplay investment to go along with it (a timer).
 

Silverfish

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
1,636
It's justified in-game as to why this happens. You are the most resourceful person in the wasteland by far, why wouldn't they want to have you on their side?

Meanwhile, I am to believe that my character is willing to go against an army of Super Mutants, the remnants of the U.S. government, and a mix of both (FO3) as a teenager? Yeah, right.

NV providing an explanation for the major factions giving you a pass doesn't make said explanation a good one, though. "You're the most resourceful person in the Mojave" doesn't hold much water anyway (you weren't resourceful enough to avoid being gunned down in Goodsprings) and is just "your character is important because they're your character" shit anyway. Turns out 'courier' is just how people in the post-nuclear hellscape pronounce 'dragonborn'.

In defense of Fallouts 2 and 3, a teenager taking on the withered remains of the US government doesn't seem all that far fetched assuming his ancestry goes back to present-day Afghanistan.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
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Messages
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NV providing an explanation for the major factions giving you a pass doesn't make said explanation a good one, though. "You're the most resourceful person in the Mojave" doesn't hold much water anyway (you weren't resourceful enough to avoid being gunned down in Goodsprings) and is just "your character is important because they're your character" shit anyway. Turns out 'courier' is just how people in the post-nuclear hellscape pronounce 'dragonborn'.
You are resourceful because 1) You manage to kill Benny in his own casino (something no one would get away with, but Mr. House is okay with it), and 2) You are the only person to ever enter the Lucky 38 and talk to Mr. House directly.
That's pretty resourceful if you ask me.
 

d1r

Busin 0 Wizardry Alternative Neo fanatic
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__scribbles__
Sadly, the point about a not fleshed out Legion faction is to be attributed to a very tight time limit that the devs had for FNV. Sawyer did say that they had plans for at least one Legion settlement where normal NPC's were doing normal town business, and would offer their views on the Legion. Just saying. The rant about the weapon DLC is just cherrypicking. Fallout New Vegas is not a "hard" game, nor a game which has a steep difficulty curve where you actually need big guns to continue your adventure. You can do very well with almost every weapon in this game if you play it right. I agree with you on the involvement aspect in the second half of the game. The game misses the opportunity to give the player a proper ending if he does not want to get involved with the main campaign any further. Not sure if Obsidian had any plans for something like that, but maybe that's what the DLC's are for. Though their implementation is kinda lackluster. Lonesome Road for example could have started right after the Courier declined to help the Big Players to get the Chip, and could have acted as a "White Ending", where the Courier would find out about his past, and cut ties with the Mojave once and for all.
 

__scribbles__

Novice
Joined
Jul 5, 2022
Messages
56
And many NPCs making comments on Legion life, as much as you can get considering they haven't lived in Legion occupied territory.
But not nearly enough to make them a realistic and viable option for the future.
You don't even compete against other players in the game, how the hell is that pay-to-win?
You PAY for equipment TO WIN. Even if there aren't other players, you're paying for an advantage.
It's justified in-game as to why this happens. You are the most resourceful person in the wasteland by far, why wouldn't they want to have you on their side?
You can literally kill every Legionnaire you meet, free all their slaves, and even FUCKING NUKE one of his territories, a Centurion, and multiple experienced and valued Legionnaires, and still be pardoned and granted an audience with Caesar himself.
The problem isn't that the factions want you on their side, it's that they invite you to their side no matter your choices even if you've taken every possible action against them. It doesn't make any sense.
An urgency that simply doesn't exist in Fallout: New Vegas because, as I said, it is up to the player to complete the main quest or not.
If the urgency doesn't exist, why even make a plot where the entire fate of the Mojave is decided by the player's involvement? Couldn't they've made a game where things happen regardless of the player's involvement instead of one where everything is set up as a conflict but can only be resolved by the Courier coming to save everyone? Everyone just sits around forever waiting for something to happen in their favor, and if the urgency wasn't supposed to exist both in side quests and the plot then those situations wouldn't have been written into the game.
 

Nikanuur

Savant
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Messages
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Ngranek
I liked F3 and I love F:NV (modding the heck out of it too). I like to spend a week modding Skyrim while dabbling in Underrail in the meantime. After that, I play a seventh replay of F2, and I absolutely adore the heck out of Wasteland 3, while also considering the 11th replay of EoBI+II. Btw, I've created a mod for Elex, and even though I understand the shortcomings of the second installment, I found both Elexes just great. Gothic III is a good game, Gothic II is a great one. Haters just gonna hate is all.
 

Silverfish

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 4, 2019
Messages
1,636
You are resourceful because 1) You manage to kill Benny in his own casino (something no one would get away with, but Mr. House is okay with it), and 2) You are the only person to ever enter the Lucky 38 and talk to Mr. House directly.

Fair enough. No one else in the Mojave desert could purchase a holdout weapon or be tasked with delivering a package.
 

Astronaire

Guest
Never finished 3, but as my first "fallout", I enjoyed just wandering with with a riffle and the dart gun.
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
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Location
Reichskommissariat Russland
Fagout 3 is not even an RPG let alone a proper Fallout game
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
1,869,770
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
...Mind you, even that only mean F3 is a okay RPG. To really save it, it need TTW to be played on FNV engine. It need all the helps it can get from that direction.
I was intrigued by TTW once upon a time but I can't be arsed doing the install routine anymore and keeping updated with the updates. Gimme a full, pre-installed installation and I'll happily do it.
Sad to say, TTW is really a project require moderate competence with install mods and playing with mods to start with. There was a guide, hand by hand, step by step, painstakingly get you through installing this shit https://thebestoftimes.github.io/

And you are going to take days to finish caliberate FNV and install mods to play TTW.

Too long guide? Really sad to say that if you skip ANY step, there's troubles coming back to you in future because of that.

Worth it? Yes, worth it. Not because of playing F3 in FNV. Also because if you ever finish installing and playing a TTW, you are competent enough to install and play
Dust, a total conversion project that assume you play in a FNV 3 decades later with Courier really fuck up EVERYTHING.
Fallout New California, a really long ass DLC-size campaign that provide an actual past to Courier 6.
Obscurum Pandemic, a strictly speaking different game (post apo) in FNV engine.
And maybe Fallout Frontier, though I cant vouch for this because I havent played this.
 

Cael

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
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Nov 1, 2017
Messages
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Laz Sundays

Educated
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
58
You know, if any Game part 2 has me actively thinking about what type of condom I'll use when nailing a mobster's wife, or if I should put one on when I go do his daughter(actually changes ending), I tend to expect some serious innovations to the part 3 before considering it's value.
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
2,886
I loved the eyebots in FO3/FNV, and in different flavors. Can't remember if they were in Fallout 1/2.

They are. It's just instead of looking like helmets they look more like the eye on the ships in the '50s War of the Worlds movie. They have more of an eye shape as opposed to a eyeball.
 

NecroLord

Learned
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
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Location
Southeastern Yurop
Interplay Fallout is the true Fallout.
Bethesda has turned the once grimdark and awesome Fallout setting into yet another "Open World" deep as a puddle "RPG".
 

Atlantico

unida e indivisible
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Undisputed Queen of Faggotry Vatnik In My Safe Space
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Make the Codex Great Again!
Fallout 3 was bland and infuriating, confusing and bizarre for people who had played Fallout and Fallout 2.

It had its moments, there are neat things to be found, seen and heard in the game, so I'm not going to say it isn't worth playing — but I feel no desire to replay it. It's done.
 

Sykar

Arcane
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Dec 2, 2014
Messages
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Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Bland? Failturd 3 looks atrocious, from the greyish everywhere with the green mould filter to the retarded faces to no plant life 200 years after the war is just ulgy as sin not to mention moronic. Don't even get me started on the terrible stiff stick up your rectum animations. It had its moments? If you mean moments of complete and utter retardation, then sure, it had its "moments".
 
Joined
Jul 29, 2020
Messages
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Location
Israel
Fallout 3 and New Vegas were terrible to play. You'd think a AAA studio would be able to design gameplay for its fps arpg to play as well as fps games made as much as a decade earlier as well as realizing it just looks really stupid to have everything be bullet sponges.

Too bad they didn't fix the retarded lore either and just made it worse like the hype around what power armor is supposed to be vs. what it's rated for (2.5 kJ is well below the energy of commonly used rifle ammunition like the .308 winchester) or the fixation on vacuum tubes when any competent electronics engineer would use transistors or integrated circuits even in basic electronics like televisions because they're smaller, cheaper, and much more energy efficient in general--IRL, vacuum tubes are only still preferred for niche applications like some audio equipment.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
11,678
Meanwhile, I am to believe that my character is willing to go against an army of Super Mutants, the remnants of the U.S. government, and a mix of both (FO3) as a teenager? Yeah, right.
Eh, kids think they're invincible and do the dumbest shit, so...
 

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