Fallout Fallout 4 Thread

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

 

[DosBuster]

Pretty sure those are LOD textures that didn't load in, also note the way the light interacts with the Red Rocket sign.

 

[typical user]

What the hell do you have inside your computer?

Also, I'm not sure ENBoost has been updated to the latest version, texture optimization mods are a fucking sham they decrease quality and in fact remove optimizations, also what did you tweak in the ini?

Yeah it was caused by Interior Lightning Overhaul or what it was called, still get drops in Boston Common but on the outskirts I get solid 50fps now as well as in most interiors. I updated recently Shadowboost to Contraptions DLC patch for the game. Most retexture mods I have sharpen textures even when they are two times smaller in size. If it breaks optimazation then I don't know how fucked up Gamebryo must be.

For the record, I have i5-4590, 8gb ddr3 ram and R9 280X.

 

[Sigourn]

uglyness

"Fallout was never about the graphix, you are such a whore, it was always about the gameplay. Can't wait to shoot super mutants!"

 

[Dustin542]

Aren't those stalker textures from Absolute Structures?

 

[DosBuster]

What the hell do you have inside your computer?

Also, I'm not sure ENBoost has been updated to the latest version, texture optimization mods are a fucking sham they decrease quality and in fact remove optimizations, also what did you tweak in the ini?

Yeah it was caused by Interior Lightning Overhaul or what it was called, still get drops in Boston Common but on the outskirts I get solid 50fps now as well as in most interiors. I updated recently Shadowboost to Contraptions DLC patch for the game. Most retexture mods I have sharpen textures even when they are two times smaller in size. If it breaks optimazation then I don't know how fucked up Gamebryo must be.

For the record, I have i5-4590, 8gb ddr3 ram and R9 280X.

You're loading textures directly into your vram unlike the ones in the ba2 files which are phased in depending on player distance.

 

[Hirato]

Mipmaps are a pretty old tech, and generally have about a 33% increased memory usage overhead compared to textures without any mip levels;
For example, let's say you had a standard RGB8 texture of 512x512 pixels, that is 768KB, and is also known as mip-level 0
Then you have the other mip levels typically as follows
level 1 -> 256x256
level 2 -> 128x128
level 3 -> 64x64
level 4 -> 32x32
level 5 -> 16xx16
level 6 -> 8x8
level 7 -> 4x4
level 8 -> 2x2
level 9 -> 1x1

These levels are usually auto-generated by the drivers as you upload the texture.
With the DirectDrawSurface (DDS) format you can specify your own arbitrary mip-levels, eg, I can have it progress as 512x512->384x384->256x256->192x192->128x128, etc.
DDS, also makes things about 4x smaller on average (at a small loss of visual quality)
From what I've heard modders say, bethesda completely fucked up on using the correct compression algorithms on the textures, but I digress.


Mipmapping has obvious benefits,
1. It looks better if you're looking at surfaces that scale or distort the texture a lot (this reduces the need for anisotropic filtering too), as the texture is prefiltered and therefor a lot easier and cheaper to sample.
2. If it can use a mip-level, it's much friendlier on your GPU's bandwidth, even if the larger mips have to get swapped out to system RAM temporarily due to overloading the VRAM (it can just pull it out as it needs it).


From what I understand, Bethesda has basically sort of reinvented the wheel here.
In their BA2 archives, they have stored the textures with mipmaps, and they've done it in such a way that they can seek directly to the miplevel they want, and instead upload that to the GPU as mip-level 0.
Benefits of this approach
- loading times are reduced a lot, if you just need the 256x256 copy, you can just upload that and its mips instead of having to upload the full 2048x2048 texture

Negatives
- Bethesda is overriding what the graphics driver should be doing on PC platforms
- Significantly increased the amount of loading that takes place, particularly on PC.
I can't speak for DX12, or Vulkan, or the console APIs, but if you want to to use the 512x512 surface now instead of the 256x256 one, you'll need to destroy the entire texture and load it from scratch at that mip-level, if you then need a lower level, the driver should just use the lower mip-level automatically.
However, bethesda's programmers are such utter morons, it won't surprise me if they also destroy and recreate the texture in this case.
I don't know if the console/vulkan/DX12 APIs let you insert new mip levels wherever.
- Bethesda's programmers are utter fucking morons, I cannot emphasize this enough.
I guarantee you this is both less stable and slower than just letting the graphics driver take care of it.
Compare this to their built in memory allocator, IN ALL OF THEIR GAMES TO DATE, USING HACKS TO REPLACE IT WITH STANDARD C MALLOC MAKES THE GAMES A MILLION TIMES FASTER AND STABLER[1][2][3]

[1] http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/34832/? (new vegas stutter remover among other things, replaces the allocator with one of many options to ludicrously increased performance and stability)
[2] http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/50305/? (hack for skyrim so allocate more memory at the start, because Bethesda is so fucking incompetent, the game just crashes 99% of the time if it event needs to allocate more - wouldn't surprise me if this remains an outstanding issue)
[3] http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/72725/? (provides the option to override skyrim's allocator with std c malloc, to massively increased stability)

 

[DosBuster]

It wouldn't be slower than using regular mipmaps, it'd be faster, with regular mipmap usage you're still loading the whole texture into memory, whereas they're only loading in the mipmap they need.
I don't think there's any evidence towards it affecting stability. I am curious to see what is wrong with how they are compressing textures though, from what I understand they're using DirectX 11 texture compression.

 

[Hirato]

It wouldn't be slower than using regular mipmaps, it'd be faster, with regular mipmap usage you're still loading the whole texture into memory, whereas they're only loading in the mipmap they need

As far as speed goes, as I explained above, the only real benefit is in faster loading times, since you never load the more detailed levels unless you need them.
Rendering performance is going to be the same until you need too many of the detailed surfaces in VRAM at once and it starts to thrash.

I'm just assuming their implementation is slower than having the driver do it because they have a wonderful history of being experts at memory management.

I don't think there's any evidence towards it affecting stability

If anyone else but Bethesda wrote the underlying code, I'd agree.

I am curious to see what is wrong with how they are compressing textures though, from what I understand they're using DirectX 11 texture compression.

It's just standard S3TC.
From what I remember, I think they just used poor format choices, ie DXT3 for diffuse textures that have absolutely no need for an alpha channel.

 

[DosBuster]

Diffuse textures would use the alpha channel for specularity/gloss or transparency.. I think.. my brain is dead atm.

 

[circ]

Diffuse textures would use the alpha channel for specularity/gloss or transparency.. I think.. my brain is dead atm.

Uh. Be aware I don't know what I'm talking about. I've never seen specularity/gloss use its own alpha channel, just its own texture using a standard RGB channel.

 

[DosBuster]

Diffuse textures would use the alpha channel for specularity/gloss or transparency.. I think.. my brain is dead atm.

Uh. Be aware I don't know what I'm talking about. I've never seen specularity/gloss use its own alpha channel, just its own texture using a standard RGB channel.

It's a performance trick, you put the texture into the Alpha channel, this saves vram and reduces draw calls. The only downside is that it increases the size of a texture on the hard drive anywhere up to 50%.

 

[circ]

Yeah. Except I've never seen Beth use the alpha channel for it.

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Pretty sure those are LOD textures that didn't load in,

The one on the right? Definitely. The left? Nope


The bricks on that Red Rocket have the illusion of depth from a distance, but once you get close...

Spoiler

Let's go to a random house.

Holy shit.

At least they tried with Oblivion, even if it was a toned down version compared to what was originally shown. Now it's a flat wall texture with lighting effects to cover it up.

 

[Wayward Son]

Got a response from Bethesda on Shitter after commenting on the fact that Polygon is going to do a review of Vault-Tec Workshop.

Not sure if savage or sarcastic...

 

[typical user]

Is there ANY saving graces about this game? Has any of the mods actually improved the story, C&C, writing, setting? And no, I don't care about "gunplay". Fallout isn't a shooter.

Is the far harbor worth a playthrough at all ?

There are two mods actually:
1. Some Assembly Required - removes most if not all power frames from the world, replacing them with small stockpiles of ammo boxes, boss chests and with newer version providing one power armor set parts in some locations. In Concord you get free power frame (but those can be bought from vendors in Diamond City or Goodneighbor) and one almost broken T-45 torso part. It also makes upgrading and repairing parts take more resources as well as having increased perk requirements (science lvl 4, armourer lvl 4, nuclear physicist lvl 3 for all upgrades as well as repairs for Enclave APA). The author says that getting T-60 is only possible if you join Brotherhood of Steel and X-01 is hidden in weird places, requiring a lot of effort. It doesn't support DLCs which is a shame. I have level 54 and only managed to get Raider and T-45 complete sets and one T-51 helmet. Unfortunately Automatron provided me with full suit of X-01 and special Tesla T-60. I'm still thinking about selling/not using them. Also this mod makes those armors more durable and protective.
1. Vault-Tec Historical Preservation Initiative - from same author, fixes most lore-inconsistencies like T-60 present during prologue as well as providing better explaination why is it better than T-51, last power armor developed before Great War. Gets rid of pre-war notes mentioning Jet, puts a note in Cambridge Polymer Labs explaining why Liberty Prime - classified military prototype weapon - is advertised to new employees, puts Synth chips on all NPCs in "Kid in the fridge" quest. Disables T-60 variant reward in Cambridge Polymer Labs (so it fits with the rest of the mod).

Look them up on Nexus, worth installing.

You're loading textures directly into your vram unlike the ones in the ba2 files which are phased in depending on player distance.

Again, you are right, uninstalled since I didn't have time to make new ba2 archives and most loading problems are fixed. Still getting fps drops in Boston Common but that's to be expected, don't know what could be causing that except for draw distance.

 

[Hirato]

Diffuse textures would use the alpha channel for specularity/gloss or transparency.. I think.. my brain is dead atm.

Uh. Be aware I don't know what I'm talking about. I've never seen specularity/gloss use its own alpha channel, just its own texture using a standard RGB channel.

Depends on the game engine.
Some don't let you make transparent textures as you normally would (eg. wire meshes) for example, so they instead pack the specularity map into the diffuse's alpha channel.
For the same reason it's very common to have the parallax map merged into the normal map's alpha channel.

It's quite memory efficient and boosts performance as you need to bind, sample, and use fewer textures overall.

Of course, you can't use that trick if you want wire meshes (and what not) to be normally transparent, nor if you want to use an RGB gloss map and not estimate it from the diffuse map's colors.

 

[circ]

Again, you are right, uninstalled since I didn't have time to make new ba2 archives and most loading problems are fixed. Still getting fps drops in Boston Common but that's to be expected, don't know what could be causing that except for draw distance.

Beth's craptastic shadows probably.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

Spoiler

Pretty sure those are LOD textures that didn't load in,

Spoiler

The one on the right? Definitely. The left? Nope


The bricks on that Red Rocket have the illusion of depth from a distance, but once you get close...

Spoiler

Let's go to a random house.

Holy shit.

At least they tried with Oblivion, even if it was a toned down version compared to what was originally shown. Now it's a flat wall texture with lighting effects to cover it up.

But the STALKER and FEAR textures are just flat as well. I can pretty much guarantee that their bump/normal maps don't add geometry (like how UE4 can do it now).

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

But the STALKER and FEAR textures are just flat as well. I can pretty much guarantee that their bump/normal maps don't add geometry (like how UE4 can do it now).

Maybe, but they try to sell it that they're bumpy, rough and uneven and have depth. As did fracking Oblivion once upon a time.

Now they don't even try.

 

[pippin]

yeah it's fucking sad when a copy paste Oblivion dungeon has more atmosphere than anything in FO4.

 

[AW8]

Got a response from Bethesda on Shitter after commenting on the fact that Polygon is going to do a review of Vault-Tec Workshop.

Not sure if savage or sarcastic...

@BethesdaGame is a newborn parody account.



@Bethesda is the real account.

 

[vean]

Bricks aren't sharp enough. 1/10 worst game ever.

 

[RK47]

But what of the tire textures, comrade?

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Bricks aren't sharp enough. 1/10 worst game ever.

"Successful developer lazier than ten years ago, covers it up with shitty lightning. Mudcrabs allegedly involved somehow. Horrible creatures. News at 11."