Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

X-COM Firaxis - XCOM: Enemy Unknown + Enemy Within Expansion

Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,686
I play Impossible/not-expac, but you should never be fully engaging the enemy unless you're sure you can get a kill that turn. Exchanging fire with the AI even when you're in full cover is a huge gamble - particularly early-game when bros tend to die to one shot. Half-cover? Fucking forget it. Your best cover is enemy FOV - rather, not being in it. Your best offense is blowing the shit out of them with as many explosives as you can before they can go anywhere. Your best offense if you gotta shoot something is 1) Overwatch spam or 2) Everyone is shooting on-target with very good odds. Heavy rockets and Support smoke are the two best abilities early game, then followed by the Assault's double-tap battle closer.

Pretty much. Half cover might as well be no cover and even hiding behind a wall (full cover) is at best a 50/50 gamble. Figuring out that you needed to hide behind walls 2 spaces away is probably the most counter intuitive but important knowledge to have about the game. Not that the original was all that much different, ending your turn in enemy sight was asking to be killed just the same. X-Com 2 is just weird in that being visually next to a wall still lets you be shot as if you were standing out past the wall.

I hear snipers are great late game, but they're so worthless in the brutal opening stages that I never really developed one.

Squad Sight is the one ability that lets you engage enemies without fear of retaliation. Even with normal weapons 2 snipers can demolish most enemies for a long time. Snipers are great after the first 3 missions, which is why the difficulty drops so dramatically. They also stay out of range and are therefore never going to die unless you really fuck up, unlike your other troops, so they'll automatically become gods of destruction by the mid game.

For those first two missions where they have sniper rifles but can't use them, switch to pistol and grenades and use them as you would a rookie.
 
Last edited:

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
19,379
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Squad Sight is the one ability that lets you engage enemies without fear of retaliation. Even with normal weapons 2 snipers can demolish most enemies for a long time. Snipers are great after the first 3 missions, which is why the difficulty drops so dramatically. They also stay out of range and are therefore never going to die unless you really fuck up, unlike your other troops, so they'll automatically become gods of destruction by the mid game.

Word. Also, was In-the-zone in the vanilla? Because my sniper just killed four mobs in one turn. Pretty ridiculous ability if you ask me.

So noone with the base defense misssion yet? I still wonder if something was bugged or I did something wrong because the difficulty spike was brutal. I was always complaining about the difficulty drop mid game but this is maybe a tad too much :)
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,686
In the Zone and Double Tap are both pretty OP. I prefer Double Tap since it's more consistent. In the Zone is great as a 2nd sniper though.
 
Last edited:

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
Squad Sight is the one ability that lets you engage enemies without fear of retaliation.

There are a few others: rockets can go further than visual range, and heavies can take the bulletswarm ability to be able to shoot once from high cover and then hunker down (a little problematic in most cases because they can't reload and hunker down in the same turn). If collateral damage does have the range of a rocket you could pretty easily substitute bulletswarm heavies + a mech and get the safe offense a sniper gives. Although it looks p. unlikely to get an early meld container on I/I.

Also, they have indeed made the first month in impossible significantly harder in a couple ways: they killed a beloved AI exploit, and they made it take another couple of missions worth of XP/kills to go from squaddie to corporal (which is where you get bullet swarm and squad sight). It was pretty much "do I get a couple breakable maps in a row?" Russian roulette already.
 
Last edited:

Brinko

Arcane
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
884
Been hearing people say that Snapshot is the better option to go with than squad sight since snapshot is now -10 aim and squad sight can't really crit anymore unless you have headshot on. Any consensus here on which is better?
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
Squad sight by a comically huge margin. It gives you a unique tactical ability that helps immediately when the game is still challenging (~late month 1-2). Snap lets your sniper fill mostly the same niche as assaults and supports, which early on are low-value units you can be safely rotating out to try to turn more rookies with frag grenades into squaddie heavies.

Super late game it's probably powerful but super late game is facerolling anyway.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,686
Snapshot just lets your sniper perform as a close ranged shooter without the perks the other classes get, and until they get In the Zone there's basically no benefit to have them around. Squad Sight makes the whole game a cakewalk as soon as you get it, and just about every other ability you get afterwards makes your snipers more monstrous. Not exactly a hard decision there.
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,935
On Impossible, Squad Sight doesn't really matter much to me because if one soldier goes down that's pretty much bad enough to lose a game in and of itself. Why have someone far away when I can have someone up close with an auto-damage and auto-cover destroying grenade? Impossible enemies have considerably more HP, too, which tends to nullify a lot of the other bonuses they get (I believe one allows you to produce multi-kills). The way enemies are corralled in their individual groups, I'd much rather have any other unit on hand that can maximize damage as fast as possible to remove the threat as fast as possible. That usually means double-tapping assaults, rockets, grenades, double-tapping heavies, or, if shit goes bad, heavy suppression or a Support smoke grenade. There's just not much room in there for snipers, even more so on congested, close-quarters maps. I'm sure snipers are wicked when they're totally leveled, but when your guys die in one shot, I'd rather have a disposable and easily replaced grenadier on hand than a sniper I'm afraid to lose (especially when your teams are just 4).
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
19,379
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Snap Shot is an absurdly OP skill with In the zone. Take your sniper, flank a group of mobs and watch him massacre three or four guys in a row.

Although I haven't taken Squadsight for my snipers this playthrough and I forgot how it worked in vanilla. So your sniper can see whatever anyone else can see but if it's far away doesn't he have like 10 % hit chance?
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
There's just not much room in there for snipers, even more so on congested, close-quarters maps. I'm sure snipers are wicked when they're totally leveled, but when your guys die in one shot, I'd rather have a disposable and easily replaced grenadier on hand than a sniper I'm afraid to lose (especially when your teams are just 4).

There is a space of early game time where you can't kill stuff in one turn safely and grenades/your rockets only last for a couple of spawns (this coincides with the interval of time that the game remains moderately difficult). At this point you want ways to turtle in safety without revealing more map or gambling on hit%, while still doing damage. SS snipers can do this in 99% boring safety by having a spotter pop in and out of cover or hunker down in indestructible cover over and over. Heavies get to almost auto-kill 2-3 enemies with a rocket (totally invaluable for the first spawn of a dense map) and then can abuse bulletswarm, meaning they're even better than SS snipers at this stage of the game (and they're also great as squaddies while snipers are actively shitty).

Smoke grenades are useless to my Roguelike risk-zeroing brain because they don't make high cover safe enough compared to hunkering, and they don't help hunkering. So I boot supports immediately to hopefully get more rookies to become heavies. Assaults are rookies that can run and gun the last enemy on the map without causing a shitstorm; fuck 'em take a rookie instead. You might get a heavy!

In the midgame supports and assaults can come back. By the time assaults get rapid fire/lightning reflexes the game is a victory lap but it's nice.
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,935
You can safely kill stuff early on by using grenades to soften targets up and destroy their cover. Squad Sight lets the Sniper be safe, but your other guys are still out there in the danger zone, and they got one less grenade to help them out. A guy upfront can also maneuver to get a flanking shot, by the way, which is just as good as anything a sniper has to offer early on.

Smoke Grenades are one of the few "oh shit" buttons you have against floaters and thin men. And if you absolutely have to shoot it out with the enemy, a good smoke grenade can tip the odds for that one turn of volley fire. On the forest maps there's not as much good cover to hide behind. 2-3+ full cover spots to hide in are very rare so you often have to shoot it out at some junction or another, and a smoke grenade is perfect for those bits of action. A full-cover, smoked-soldier is hard to hit. A full-cover, densely smoked-soldier is nigh impossible. Hunkering down is a pretty solid oh-shit button, too, but it removes the soldier from the field of play for a turn - which is why it's really the oh shittiest of the oh shit buttons. Support's ability to go +3 spaces on moving is invaluable for gaining flanking shots and overall positioning, by the way, and is the best reason to take them into missions. Against wily thin men and floaters, having someone who can cover a ton of ground with a shotgun (or stun) is a great addition to the team. They also have the suppression/reaction fire ability which is great on thin men, too. I put Support there with Assault in terms of importance to my teams. There's just nothing glitzy about them like Assault's overwatch dodging or double-tapping.

Heavies are the best, though. No question.
 

nil

Cipher
Joined
Jan 1, 2012
Messages
317
So I got my first clue about the location of the exalt base: "The base is in a country that you can play in Civilization V".

Fuck.You.
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
Dense smoke is so lategame I don't even. At that point everything has bombard grenades so cover is only there to keep you from taking critical hits. Early smoke is only 20 defense, meaning sectoids and thin men have 15% shots on you in high cover (and good chances to crit). Even your flanked shots are like ~65-75% hits at that point that usually take two to kill; it's way too risky to leave people exposed at all to shoot, ever. Mass firing several flanked shots from a rooftop is about as much of a gamble as I like to take unless I know I'm on the last group of a map.

Hunkering is not an oh-shit button, you get use out of the soldier's vision for the whole turn before hunkering and it keeps the AI from running to a position where the hunkerer can flank them, which means it usually shuts them off from advancing so you can do stuff like move the one guy that has a grenade left to the correct position.

Tall trees you can hunker behind in outdoor maps take two hits to break. I generally found outdoor maps (of shot-down UFOs) easy enough compared to abuction maps that I didn't think they were worth strategizing over just because they have so many fewer enemies that grenades and rockets can steamroll it.

In the original release you also had the ability to rush for a SHIV that you could have in time for thin men/floaters, followed closely by a crazy 18 hitpoint alloy SHIV in the first week of the second month which kept supports and assaults suboptimal for another month or so.
 

SuicideBunny

(ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
8,943
Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Torment: Tides of Numenera
Does the MEC-3 Paladin aoe stun ability work like the arc thrower, where you actually cap the stunned alien?
the only thing so far it did for me was 5 dmg to friend or foe alike inside its radius, no stunning organics but disabling mechanical units. if it can stun, it's probably chance based with a really starting value. on the upside it has no ammo/limited uses but instead a shortish cooldown.
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,935
I mean it's just different strokes for different folks. Using Support is how I get through Impossible. Dense Smoke comes right after Lieutenant, it's definitely not early but I wouldn't really call it late-game - I often had a captain or two by the second terror mission at most. And a free defense bubble is pretty sweet because you're not always going to have cover to go behind. Obviously, Smoke won't always save you. I've had guys in full-cover/smoke get one-shotted from across the map, but a lot of the times it's quite nice to have if shit hits the fan.

I refer to Hunker Down as an oh shit button because more often than not the better option is to simply retreat and reset. Really, the #1 strat in staying alive in Impossible is staying mobile and playing with enemy FOV. Hunker Down has its moments, I just have a preference for staying mobile. An example of HD use is on the council missions which tend to be total goatfucks all around.

Personally, I never got the SHIV on Impossible. There's too much of a rat race thing going on with the world map that most resources are spent getting the officer school and satellites up. Research goes into armor/weapons for the troops to compensate. Also, I just find troops to just be better investments. I'd rather have an assortment of squaddie abilities on hand than one tanky unit.

But, again, it's to each their own. I find the game's battlemaps very easy by just using the tactics I developed. I've cleared terror missions with four rookies and have cleared the third month with five casualties and zero lost battles. For me, it's not getting fucked over on the global panic that is the hardest part.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
24,704
Well that funny overpowered sniper is nice, when they survive long enough to receive squad sight. And then they are immobile, which in current version opens them for stealth attacks. In original, they required field of fire, which was quite hard in some locations. Snipers that can move and fire, were actually able to hit something and most importantly had reaction shots after movement, which helped immensely (with theirs survivability).
I'm currently at phase when I discovered cyberdisk can crit behind light cover and aliens can use grenades, and I lost heavy with cute name and only heavy who could move fast and do suppression. So I'm down to 3 experienced members. I play on ironman with one member who is supposed to be in every mission and is chief of whole XCOM, to make it more interesting and difficult, it creates interesting situations when it's basically half squad member. That's one Assault. Then I have one heavy "doomsday" specialized with shreder rocket and training against mecha, he was also in that mission. And one sniper with squad sight "shadow". And that's all experienced squad members after 3-4 months. On the other hand I didn't lose single country, and finally have enough satellites to have some money, and enough engineers so satellites are cheap.

In original floaters were not a joke, when they went behind and prepared for a crit, and in front were 6 mutons. It's obvious the charge was out of question and they shouldn't be left behind at all. Similarly to thin men. Actually current problems with thin men are because they BOTH increased health by one, AND gave them plasma rifle. They should either increase health (probably better), or give them plasma rifle. Or they could reduce theirs appearance to two, not swarms as always. I don't remember if I was played on classics, but they moved 3 thin men around my two survivors... Obviously one thin man survived to kill one of survivors.

Well EW is more difficult than original, and squad is much longer in only 4. In fact it's bit mistake. A SHIV should be given a free slot (and shown as carried by another plane). Actually SHIV is quite convenient, with enough engineers losing a SHIV is just a price of two recruits, which when gives chance for rookies to improve is far affordable price.
Otherwise EW is quite a mess as it depends on easy missions in the beginning and trying to put up satellite ASAP.

In addition I found it has rather too few downed craft missions. In UFO:ET it was main source of dead bodies, aside of kicking alliens from a country, losing the country, kicking alliens from the same country, losing the same country, kicking aliens from the same country... getting money for finally enought decent fighter aircraft and kicking and keeping aliens out bit more reliably. Base attack missions were always bloody. Base defense mission were always iffy and finished with something like three soldiers standing. Or with "No that absoutelly massacring heavy weapon platform, I saved for it 2 months." Of course few were killed by it, and the killing alien exposed himself, thus was killed without risk. I had also base defense mission with really touch aliens, two days after I manufactured two rifles that could kill them and had only three clips for them. So one rifle to one person with clip n 0, second rifle to another person with clip n 1, and spare clip to better shooter. And I tried to avoid burst fire and hit with every shot.

The lack of inventory really hurt the game. Inability to pick up Medikits and some artificial restrictions screwed up with narrative.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
24,704
I just seen something funny on theirs forums
Sectopoids shouldn't be three in the same room.
This reminded me about this quote
I never knew Demon Lords are moving in packs of four.
Funny stuff from RPG PnP games.


The former is typically caused by bad game design, a lot of amateurs have problems with that. The later can happen, sometimes.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
I just seen something funny on theirs forums
Sectopoids shouldn't be three in the same room.
This reminded me about this quote
I never knew Demon Lords are moving in packs of four.
Funny stuff from RPG PnP games.


The former is typically caused by bad game design, a lot of amateurs have problems with that. The later can happen, sometimes.

The 'overlords who, for some reason, feel inclined to sign up for mook duty in some more powerful overlord's base' problem of high-level DnD gaming:)
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
19,379
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
So I got my first clue about the location of the exalt base: "The base is in a country that you can play in Civilization V".

Fuck.You.

Yeah, that was incredibly immersion breaking.
So is the inclusion of XCOM squad in Civ5 btw.

I just seen something funny on theirs forums
Sectopoids shouldn't be three in the same room.

It's probably the next-to-last room in the final mission on Impossible (I think on Classic there are only 2) and yeah, it's pretty insane. I can just imagine playing this on Impossible Ironman, getting your whole elite squad wiped out and then grinding for another 6 months to promote and upgrade the replacements. And then try the Temple Ship assault again, probably with the same result :)
 

Heresiarch

Prophet
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
1,451
FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

My team got UTTERLY DESTROYED BY FCUKING EXALT

Rocket launcher + 2 grenades = DEAD TROOPERS EVERYWHERE

FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

Time to restart

I hate this game
 

TwinkieGorilla

does a good job.
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
5,480
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pathfinder: Wrath
I am enjoying very much this new expansion and creating mech soldiers. That is all.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom