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X-COM Firaxis - XCOM: Enemy Unknown + Enemy Within Expansion

Grunker

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Enemy Within changes that?

Dunno if it changes it, but the base defense mission comes out of nowhere and doesn't let you equip your guys. Since I always have my good gear stashed and only equip it for missions, I had to fight wave after wave of monsters with standard armor and weapons. MECs eventually won the day, but I lost some good soldiers on that mission. I was left without leveled supports.

Enemy packs are "level scaled" in that way. Applies to everything, really, even the alien base itself. AFAIK the only thing that doesn't change ever is the temple ship. So the only "bad idea" is to let months pass without advancing your tech. Doing things early is perfectly fine as long as you don't fail horribly.

Eh? It's not "level-scaling" per se, is it? It's scaled on the passing of time, I think? If you just pass time without doing much, monsters will still scale up.
 

Zeriel

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Yeah, that's why I put it in quotes. It's power scaling of enemy counters based on time.

There's an interesting tension between the way time both increases your own power (depending on your research/capture decisions) and that of your enemies. Going to "hard" scripted missions before laser/carapace tech is definitely hard, but once you get past that hurdle, difficulty falls off abruptly, and there are certain breakpoints where you can have really good tech and the enemy hasn't yet scaled to that where the game is absurdly easy. Probably the biggest flaw with XCOM, though, is that the enemies never scale up to your full potential. There is no alien equivelant of a max-rank sniper or assault. Imagine fighting a sectoid commando with ghost armor and an alloy cannon. That'd be beautiful.

I think this is where I find X-COM the more satisfying game. At least in the 90's there was always the possibility of having your whole team psi-panicked through walls (can't happen here because psi requires line of sight), or getting your bunched up team blaster-bombed in one second from an enemy you can't see (can't happen here because even though you get the tech from them, aliens don't have blaster launchers, plus blaster launchers no longer have waypoints).

Generally speaking, new XCOM also frontloads way too much difficulty into metagamey aspects like scripted missions that absolutely will tear you apart on Classic/Impossible Iron-Man if you don't know what's coming/where things spawn, but once you do become trivial as fuck. Same applies to the static maps. The biggest danger in XCOM isn't the most dangerous aliens, it's playing on a map you are not familiar with. I think this is the biggest casualty of no procedural map generation. As much as people would like random maps just to not be bored in a visual/layout sense, it also ties massively into the difficulty of the game.
 

Grunker

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Yeah, that's why I put it in quotes. It's power scaling of enemy counters based on time.

But that's like the opposite of level-scaling (or at least, very different from it). Time passes, monsters level. Your ability to keep up/supercede monster-leveling is the core of the game :)

The biggest danger in XCOM isn't the most dangerous aliens, it's playing on a map you are not familiar with. I think this is the biggest casualty of no procedural map generation.

I agree completely. Advancing in the optimal way based on the map is sad fact of the game. However, when I said I was wrong that X-COM needed such maps, I meant that playing the original, map familiarity came quick. I'm halfway through my second playthrough now, and the map count is high enough that I'm still unfamiliar with many maps. Some of them blend together because they're so alike, and it takes me a while to figure out which one I'm one. It's far from the goodness of procedural generation, but it's better than I predicted.
 

Zeriel

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Yeah, I was just using "level-scaling" to get the basic concept across. Since some people didn't seem aware the enemies of missions are not static, even on stuff like alien base.

Re: layout, the biggest issue is council/scripted missions. They are static within their type, or when they have variation (bomb disposal, for example), it's 1-3 variations as opposed to 50. The mission I will refer to only as 'The Whale Mission' is probably the best paragon of this issue in the entire game. Automatic guaranteed loss first time you play it without reloads, probably 100% winrate, 0 damage taken on repeats. I don't particularly mind because I am masochistic, but you know, probably a design issue.
 

Grunker

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I see why they did it though. The Whale Mission is balls-to-the-walls awesome on the first playthrough.
 

Zeriel

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It is really cool conceptually, I think the issue just stems from the same "binary success or failure" model they used for the game. Classic/Impossible don't like you to lose missions or soldiers, because the limited geoscape is required to punish you in very arbitrary ways, and because the soldier count on missions is so low. Complicated problems arise from trying to shoehorn a game like old X-COM into modern design philosophy.

I'm sure Solomon (who I kind of consider a bro) would tell me it is extremely erroneous to judge the mission design based on only Classic Iron-Man or above, but goddamn, that's the only place where the game starts to get interesting, so whatever. Speaking of which, did he go into retirement? I don't recall seeing him in any interviews for the new expansion.
 

Grunker

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It is really cool conceptually, I think the issue just stems from the same "binary success or failure" model they used for the game. Classic/Impossible don't like you to lose missions or soldiers, because the limited geoscape is required to punish you in very arbitrary ways, and because the soldier count on missions is so low.

I agree - but these are all core problems with the game, which is far from perfect. The expansion fixed more that I thought it could have. As exactly that - an expansion of what worked in the original - I'd call it a pretty astonishing success. It feels completely like an oldschool expansion in the way that it just adds more content, more choice, more to spend your time on. Instead of some narrow DLC missions or new story shit or whatever, it actual deepens and broadens the gameplay.

That's what I'm praising. The problems you describe are core issues - and though larger map diversity alliviates them, they remain.
 

Zeriel

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Yeah, I do like it. I wish it was even a little more old school as far as expanding the original storyline goes (I feel like it falls off dramatically at the three-month point/overseer ship), but oh well. Hope this turns into a new series for Firaxis. Would love to see what they do with the combat engine given time. Unreal Engine nonsense + no procedural maps ain't great, but its turnbased combat is the best I've seen of any modern game. Especially in multiplayer it's a notable triumph, never seen turnbased work so well and so quickly in a multiplayer environment.
 

Heresiarch

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Destroyed the EXALT guys. A little disappointed, my top tech guys absolutely obliterated them. A bit of let down actually, the first 3 or 4 EXALT missions were lots of fun, as they would often swarm me over, but once you got to the point to reliably kill 1 EXALT with every 1.5 troop/turn, their ability to swarm completely ceased and every mission became a shooting practice.

Now with 100% satellite coverage finally set up (though I lost 2 countries in the first month), I can feel that the difficulty, just like before, is going down now. Interestingly enough, the game isn't exactly as easy as before, as the single introduction of Mechtoids spiced up the game somewhat. These guys hurt like hell, would often appear in twos or even threes during a single mission, and they often spawn together with extra sectoid commanders which can be very dangerous. Sectopods, Mechtoids and Cyberdisks going overwatch instead of doing nothing when discovered also helps a bit. Of course, 95% of the time they won't be able to shoot even once thanks to the massive firepower from my side, but at least it's a nice change of pace as you need to think (even just a little bit) in order to optimize your performance.
 

Grunker

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Overall I think the EXALT content is the weakest of the new content. All-around pushover missions (disregarding stray explosives suddenly whooping your team), and the missions are samey and boring. When they told me the operative could only carry a pistol and no armor, I figured I was in for some 1-man infiltration missions. The engine could probably handle the top-down puzzle stealther pretty well with just the core mechanics. I was disappointed when hold-the-point Battlefield style for 15 missions with an additional squad member was all I got.
 

Heresiarch

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LOL it seems that Training Roulette is (another) Best Thing of this DLC.

http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?281766-Training-roulette-hillariousness

I haven't used it on my current playthrough (as I was still learning how to survive in Ironman, but I'm doing great so far), yet I can see it to be game changing. Combined with Hidden Potential and Not Created Equal, It gives every soldier a purpose to use and train, extra troopers with the same classes aren't necessary redundant, and rookies with shitty stats are not just simple cannon fodders. You may have dudes with sky reaching high aim but absolutely sucky abilities, or have guys who have ability combos with crazy synergies but shitty stats. If you got lucky and have someone with murderous skills and godlike stats and only got him or her killed the shock would be absolutely heart wrenching. I'm definitely going to try this out on I/I.

This €26 I paid for has better value than I expected.
 
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Overall I think the EXALT content is the weakest of the new content. All-around pushover missions (disregarding stray explosives suddenly whooping your team), and the missions are samey and boring. When they told me the operative could only carry a pistol and no armor, I figured I was in for some 1-man infiltration missions. The engine could probably handle the top-down puzzle stealther pretty well with just the core mechanics. I was disappointed when hold-the-point Battlefield style for 15 missions with an additional squad member was all I got.

Yeah, that was disappointing. When I first got an infiltration mission I naturally selected my best soldier, a gene-modded super sniper. I too imagined some actual infiltration work. And then I had to defend some computer against exalt mobs and my super soldier was stuck with a useless pistol. So I just parked her invisible ass behind some cover in the area I was supposed to defend and that was enough to completely block their hacking attempts.
 

Jaedar

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I'm sure Solomon (who I kind of consider a bro) would tell me it is extremely erroneous to judge the mission design based on only Classic Iron-Man or above, but goddamn, that's the only place where the game starts to get interesting, so whatever. Speaking of which, did he go into retirement? I don't recall seeing him in any interviews for the new expansion.
Afaik, Solomon is not involved in Enemy within(I suppose one could check the credits if one wanted). I assume he's working on another game, possibly XCOM2: terror from the deep.
 

Grunker

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Heresiarch

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I'm sure Solomon (who I kind of consider a bro) would tell me it is extremely erroneous to judge the mission design based on only Classic Iron-Man or above, but goddamn, that's the only place where the game starts to get interesting, so whatever. Speaking of which, did he go into retirement? I don't recall seeing him in any interviews for the new expansion.
Afaik, Solomon is not involved in Enemy within(I suppose one could check the credits if one wanted). I assume he's working on another game, possibly XCOM2: terror from the deep.

Or possibly, XCOM: Apocalypse. The MEC and gene mods stuff ties perfectly in with Apoc's background, with all the androids and sectoid hybrids living amongst normal people and the widespread usage of cybernetics. Also the Ethereals were facing some threat that's even scarier, which also fits Apoc's interdimensional aliens.

While I personally would love to see a TFTD remake, I'm not sure if today's advanced game engine can make such a game looking well. I mean with the old UFO engine, troopers and alien could walk comfortably undersea and throw grenades around like on the surface yet doesn't look weird, but with today's 3D engine if the troopers would still run around in the sea it'll look so unrealistic.
 
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I'm sure Solomon (who I kind of consider a bro) would tell me it is extremely erroneous to judge the mission design based on only Classic Iron-Man or above, but goddamn, that's the only place where the game starts to get interesting, so whatever. Speaking of which, did he go into retirement? I don't recall seeing him in any interviews for the new expansion.
Afaik, Solomon is not involved in Enemy within(I suppose one could check the credits if one wanted). I assume he's working on another game, possibly XCOM2: terror from the deep.

Or possibly, XCOM: Apocalypse. The MEC and gene mods stuff ties perfectly in with Apoc's background, with all the androids and sectoid hybrids living amongst normal people and the widespread usage of cybernetics. Also the Ethereals were facing some threat that's even scarier, which also fits Apoc's interdimensional aliens.

While I personally would love to see a TFTD remake, I'm not sure if today's advanced game engine can make such a game looking well. I mean with the old UFO engine, troopers and alien could walk comfortably undersea and throw grenades around like on the surface yet doesn't look weird, but with today's 3D engine if the troopers would still run around in the sea it'll look so unrealistic.


Yeah I think Firaxis would do Apocalypse better because it was naturally a smaller-scale X-COM. They would also be devoid of some of the constraints Gollop had to face and be able to add some more additional features. I want my cyberpunk alien-fighting turn-based game!

I do hope that they stop popamolefying the Geoscape. Personally I liked a lot a idea I once read in the Open X-COM forums where instead of just using radar stations, you use radar stations (small area covered, good coverage) combined with drones that can stand on air for a long time and take less aircraft space. So you just send the drones to the place you want and they patrol there while you wait and administer X-COM. Seems quite doable.

Yeah its going to be weird to see TFTD on the sea, people don't walk on the sea-bottom. Through I do think it would be nice if they handled the 3Dimensionality of water.

I've heard that XCOM in consoles didn't sell too well. Am I the only one who thinks they will go full PC for the next title?
 

cvv

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Yeah its going to be weird to see TFTD on the sea, people don't walk on the sea-bottom.
I suspect Grunk is onto something here, I personally think with the modern 3D engines they wouldn't resist making the water all "watery" - the ubiquitous swaying, distorting motion - which would most certainly become incredibly annoying within five minutes of playing.

The walking part wouldn't be a problem imo, just install some sort of jet propeller in the back of their dive suits and they would sortta hop/whiz forward, my pleasure Firaxis :cool:

I've heard that XCOM in consoles didn't sell too well. Am I the only one who thinks they will go full PC for the next title?
Link?
That'd be good news naturally. A lot of delicious glee potential here.
 

Heresiarch

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Finished the game. Ironman/Classic. First time Ironman win too; I restarted a LOT (20 times actually) but once I got the hang of it and survived for two months, the game was quite manageable as long as I keep my head calm. Got only 3 guys killed, the most tragic one was a redhair colonel "Wildchild" got blasted and critically wounded by a sectopod in melee range. The sectopod refused to move despite I tried to lure it away, and killing it on the spot would mean the explosion would kill my colonel. What's more, my remaining soldiers couldn't kill it fast enough, so I was forced to let my MEC do an EMP blast on the sectopod to stun it, but doing so would also kill my colonel who was lying at the pod's feet. I could almost hear my colonel using her last breath saying "blast away, don't mind me, give...it...hell...". So my MEC stunned the pod, saved the team, but also killed her good friend Wildchild in the process. :(

Here's my personal conclusive thought on Enemy Within:

- General difficulty: the thing that I worried most at first. Turned out the game actually became on average slightly more difficult (and fun) than the original. The early to midgame is as before the best part. Longer research time at the beginning makes the game more challenging to play with as full carapace + laser combo won't come as quickly as it was, thus Mutons and Chryssalids could be slightly more annoying to deal with (annoying but not difficult, as you have the MECs and stuff to use). Mid game, with the introduction of Mechtoids and the enhancement of Sectopods, along with the nerf of some of the best skills (squad sight, HEAT ammo), combat require a bit more thought as you can't simply solo Cyberdisks and Sectopods with a HEAT heavy anymore, and better firepower management must be used to deal with these guys. Late game (post alien base) was still ridiculously easy, but fortunately that part could be breezed over pretty quickly. Also, the AI seems to have improved as well, sectoids and mutons FUCKING LOVE flanking this time, and they won't hesitate to walk around a wall or even a building just to shoot at your sides or ass.

- New toys and general balance: The new equipments, MEC class, foundry upgrades, and genemods were not as overpowered as I thought. A lot of the old things on your side got nerfed (more expensive plasma weapons, weaker abilities, longer research time, more powerful aliens, etc.), so the new features provide the needed balance to make the game more manageable. For example, in XCOM EU I could comparably easy equip my whole team in Archangel and Ghost armor, and in most cases Titan Armor was not even needed. In EW, as plasma weapons become more expensive, and Elerium could be spent on some new things such as MEC weapons, I faced the problem that I had no Elerium left to build Archangel/Ghost armor. Luckily with genemods I could compensate that with the jumping mod. Also because the sectoid family appears in much higher frequency this time, sectoid commanders become a very common sight. Therefore the new brain gene mods is also very useful to protect against mind attack.

- MEC: The MEC class though is probably the most fun thing to play with. They are really like the good old tanks in X-COM and TFTD, or Androids packed with heavy launchers and HE missiles in Apocalypse. Just throw them out in the open and bring down massive firepower without worrying too much about being damaged, while the human troopers flank and deal the lethal blows. To be honest, the destruction or tactical value the MAC can bring aren't what your classic heavy or sniper cannot do. Double Tap Squad Sight Headshot sniper and Close Combat Specialist Rapid Fire Close and Personal assault did way more (reliable) damage for me. Early on MEC with their low accuracy and EXTREMELY limited ammo is highly annoying and couldn't contribute as much as the humans. Later on they would become very reliable and flexible as they don't rely on covers, and can stand and fight in places that humans won't dare to be in (i.e. open fields or near easily destroyed half covers).

I think a very important contribution to the gameplay the MEC brought is it gives tactical management much more versatility because they are not reliant on covers. Before EW, I found many cases that all my troopers were competing for covers to stick behind, as seldom is the case that there are enough full covers for 6 people. This brought a lot of silly situations such as 3 or 4 guys lining up behind a wall, or 3 humans camping around a single half cover. In EW however, I could put one or two MECs in the open, giving the other 4 humans much more room to maneuver with. This helped solving the problem that the game was too reliant on covers.

A tip about using MEC: despite their perceived high HP, these guys are NOT bullet (or plasma) sponges or even tanks. Their resilience level is just like X-COM/TFTD tanks and Apoc androids - tougher than humans, capable to take a couple extra hits, but that's all. Their greatest survival ability is as mentioned above you can put them into less than ideal spots (for humans) without worrying being one-shot crit killed. Their high mobility also helps them getting out of trouble (or LOS) or getting in for a killing blow. Ideally MEC should never be damaged in most combat, just like humans.

- New maps and missions: as discussed before, the fishing village and base defense missions are awesome. The first two Progeny missions were also enjoyable (the second one could be a bit too easy as it comes quite late), but the third one sucked as it was just an alien abductor ship mission with a time limit. In my playthrough I haven't seen a single normal randomized council missions, which was pretty weird. Playing scripted DLC missions is better than killing Thin Men over and over and over again in the randomized missions though.

- Second wave: Training Roulette and Aiming Angles could potentially give massive gameplay changes. With Aiming Angles cover management becomes even more important. On the other hand your troopers could also hit aliens easier early on. I don't know late game wise if AA would tip the favour into the aliens, as in EW there are a lot of +defense perks (medals and support MEC's skill), I saw my late game troopers easily get 60 - 70 defense behind a full cover. I suspect you'll get hit A LOT MORE with AA on.

Training Roulette is probably insanely fun. Not Created Equal and Hidden Potential were praised to make soldiers a bit more interesting, and with TR it takes it to the extreme by making every single soldier completely unique. It also makes soldier reward more attractive as less guess work will be involved at choosing their skills. A combination of different, unique soldiers, customized further with genemods and new equipment such as all those new grenades, would possibly provide endless replay value.

In conclusion I find this Xpac a good incline. There are still some bugs like FUCKING TELEPORTING BUG (only once though), aliens occasionally disappear from LOS (mostly after damaged by explosions), and some aliens' AI is quite dumb (Mechtoids instead of shooting, run into your smoke). The new gameplay features are mostly very well balanced. The new second wave options alone would provide a lot of roguelike feeling. Finally, things like EXALT, MEC and genemods, while at first sight may look like diverted from classic X-COMs, in practice they feel more like bringing back good old Cult of Sirius, Displacer/Sonic, and androids/hybrids (as you can see, I really like Apoc).
 
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Zeriel

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I'm sure Solomon (who I kind of consider a bro) would tell me it is extremely erroneous to judge the mission design based on only Classic Iron-Man or above, but goddamn, that's the only place where the game starts to get interesting, so whatever. Speaking of which, did he go into retirement? I don't recall seeing him in any interviews for the new expansion.
Afaik, Solomon is not involved in Enemy within(I suppose one could check the credits if one wanted). I assume he's working on another game, possibly XCOM2: terror from the deep.

I actually looked it up, and he took a one-year vacation right after EU was released. Sounds like the crushing experience of having his dream sequel focus-grouped into the ground really wore him out.

Re: all the people who want the sequel to be underwater, I really doubt it will be. They've said multiple times they weren't big fans of waterworld, and honestly, they're kind of right. TftD was only good because it used the fantastic foundation of X-COM + increased difficulty, it was pretty underwhelming as its own game, really more of a standalone expansion than anything else.
 

Jaedar

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god I hate exalt, it adds so much filler combat to the late game and there are only 2 types of exalt missions
You only need to do a total of 7+1 exalt missions throughout the entire game, the last being the assault on their base.
 

Grunker

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Still too much. Really lackluster content. The base is basically one big room and a ton of guys.
 

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