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Hearts of Iron IV - The Ultimate WWII Strategy Game

CthuluIsSpy

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How so? What does that DLC change, and could it have been included in a patch?
Is the DLC scheme for HoI4 as egregious as EU4 and CK2, where they put very useful QoL features behind a paywall?
Edit : Bah, I discovered you can't annex puppets without DLC, even though the German AI annexed France. Well that's some bullshit.

So the new Italy Focus tree allows you to invite South America to your League if you go Italy First.
So now the map looks like this :

24E8A3F442EE9146157FE678D565BAF017D2E758


This extended free weekend is great. I basically got to play a whole campaign for free :D
 
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Nirvash

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Jan 20, 2017
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So I was minding my own business, building up my army to do a sneaky attack on the allies while they're distracted with the axis. I even started a civil war in Mexico just to distract the Americans.
Then the Germans attacked me.
So now Fascist Italy, Hungary, Macedonia, Italian Yougoslavia, Italian Serbia and Junta Mexico are helping the allies and the USSR fight Germany, Mexico (who are still democratic), Slovakia and Fascist Romania.

I think I get why people like this game, that's fucking hilarious.
They attacked you or your yugo puppet? Nazi germany path got a late conquer yugo goal.
Yougo puppet. That would explain it then.
So if you don't have a puppet they won't attack? Or will they just have a claim casus belli?

That basically means that war between Italy and Germany is inevitable then, because taking Yougoslavia is part of Italy's focus tree and is before the Iron Pact focus.
nazi germany got a "give us slovenia, no wait give us all yugo" from yugo, it only works if yugo is alive, puppet or not.

Is a new dlc problem as no one had a focus or reason to puppet yugo before.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Huh, should have just annexed it then.
Oh well, maybe when I have the game for real and want to try the Stresa Front tree. It seems puppets are pointless without La resistance anyway.
By the looks of it you can use it to knock Germany early when they annex Austria and go after the Soviets after with the allies. Basically Red Alert.
 
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Nirvash

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Jan 20, 2017
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This dlc buffed resistance alot, you need way more garrisons as you lose way more men/guns, so current meta is armored cars or cheap tanks.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Finished the campaign, just before the free weekend expired.
The final map :
20D8CA28F2A1D4907AC1C4803A4FA845351407F1

BAA219480759D6A8C06E5A4F5B071391FEEF9A75
B04F5E6A14E7C956A215D68B4722A25A0412E52B
2D2A42FDF419AB912965A93082D846E0AB7560D2
There was another massive war at the end.
Bit of a weird one -
Britain went fascist and attacked Soviet Denmark.
Apparently one of my allies had a guarantee on it so was pulled into the war and called in my other allies. I had to join in because I wanted those African lands.
So the Soviet Union and the Italian League fight WW3 against the Allies, who are led by Fascist UK.
The United States was not involved as they left the allies after UK flipped and had a civil war against their own fascists. The facists won and formed the Confederate states.

After a 3 year war most of the UK was puppeted by Italy, Nationalist Spain got Gibraltar, Italy got Malta, Corsica, Egypt, parts of Africa (to stop the Germans from getting it, north of the UK, the southern parts of France (tons of steel) and Algiers.
French went Nationlist due to a coup and I gave them parts of France back.

The Soviet union puppeted a part of Scotland. Germany took parts of Africa too and India I think.

Some thoughts - Mobile Doctine / Bandit's war probably isn't optimal for Italy. I was starved for resources trying to build artillery AND tanks. I wanted to go Superior Firepower but that has no synergy with Italy's Focus and advisors. They get an advisor for Grand Battleplan and MW and a Focuses for them, but nothing for Mass Assault or Superior Firepower.

Italy's airforce is actually pretty strong. By the end of the game it was a lot more powerful than my Navy. I should have built some carriers though because during the last war I had trouble getting air cover, and without strong breakthrough due to not being able to effectively mass tanks you need all the air cover you can get.

Mare Nostrum is a fun path, but it seems a little barebones compared to A Greater Italy. Apparently you can make the Roman Empire, but I didn't see that option. Maybe you need a DLC?

Rockets are your friend.
 
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CthuluIsSpy

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Finished the campaign, just before the free weekend expired.
How was the endgame lag?
Not that bad, actually.
It did chug a little, but it wasn't as egregious as Stellaris's end game lag. Sometimes there is a bit of delay when it comes to the peace conference because the game has to calculate the new borders, but other than it it's acceptable.
 

Raghar

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I tried newest version, and I don't like it.
They added a tank and aircraft designer and it's a disaster. It's basically, the same as if player just researched tech, and clicked the selected design.

IIRC they removed modification of design by XP points. Thus, designs are static and there is basically less variability than before.
And there is the problem generals are created by telephones, thus instead of using PP for creating generals, players are using telephones. The trouble is appointing leaders into government reduces max telephones, thus...

Basically it's a mess.

Funnily in my game Germany had civil war, then created EU, and EU attacked Russia. Kinda looks like what's happening now. UK attacked Netherland because Netherland is UK's bitch.
 

Victor1234

Educated
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Dec 17, 2022
Messages
255
I tried newest version, and I don't like it.
They added a tank and aircraft designer and it's a disaster. It's basically, the same as if player just researched tech, and clicked the selected design.

IIRC they removed modification of design by XP points. Thus, designs are static and there is basically less variability than before.
And there is the problem generals are created by telephones, thus instead of using PP for creating generals, players are using telephones. The trouble is appointing leaders into government reduces max telephones, thus...

Basically it's a mess.

Funnily in my game Germany had civil war, then created EU, and EU attacked Russia. Kinda looks like what's happening now. UK attacked Netherland because Netherland is UK's bitch.
It was (sort of?) this way in HOI1, when the tech tree was like "Here's 4 different types of suspensions with slightly different bonuses that you can pick for your tank, but the meta demands you pick the best one so Christie suspension it is, every game".

They simplified it in HOI2 and it seems are now back full circle because they ran out of ideas/the fans are stupid and wanted it.
 

thesecret1

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Jun 30, 2019
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Played this and I can't believe how shit it is. The UI is absolute cancer, anything that has anything to do with navy or airfore is utter garbage, the research tree is some casualized mobile trash, the national ambition tree (or however the fuck it's called) is possibly the biggest chunk of cancer I've ever seen (channel mana for 70 days and win!!!!1!!), the AI is utterly retarded (just keeps all its troops on the front, completely ignoring the fact a lone tank division is in the process of conquering the rest of the country behind the lines), the battleplans are awful and I hate them (combination of shit UI and shit AI) and the "politics" are a joke, among other things. Why anyone would play this instead of Darkest Hour is beyond me.
 

Victor1234

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Dec 17, 2022
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255
Played this and I can't believe how shit it is. The UI is absolute cancer, anything that has anything to do with navy or airfore is utter garbage, the research tree is some casualized mobile trash, the national ambition tree (or however the fuck it's called) is possibly the biggest chunk of cancer I've ever seen (channel mana for 70 days and win!!!!1!!), the AI is utterly retarded (just keeps all its troops on the front, completely ignoring the fact a lone tank division is in the process of conquering the rest of the country behind the lines), the battleplans are awful and I hate them (combination of shit UI and shit AI) and the "politics" are a joke, among other things. Why anyone would play this instead of Darkest Hour is beyond me.
To watch the game play itself? I recall once a HOI4 fan wandered into the Darkest Hour forum saying "What?!?!? You have to move every unit yourself?!?! Doesn't like the game do that for you?".

Incidentally, I haven't played HOI4 for any meaningful length of time but the Supreme Ruler series manages to make AI automation work in a way the players are more or less happy with since about 2008.
 

Malakal

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I tried newest version, and I don't like it.
They added a tank and aircraft designer and it's a disaster. It's basically, the same as if player just researched tech, and clicked the selected design.

IIRC they removed modification of design by XP points. Thus, designs are static and there is basically less variability than before.
And there is the problem generals are created by telephones, thus instead of using PP for creating generals, players are using telephones. The trouble is appointing leaders into government reduces max telephones, thus...

Basically it's a mess.

Funnily in my game Germany had civil war, then created EU, and EU attacked Russia. Kinda looks like what's happening now. UK attacked Netherland because Netherland is UK's bitch.
It was (sort of?) this way in HOI1, when the tech tree was like "Here's 4 different types of suspensions with slightly different bonuses that you can pick for your tank, but the meta demands you pick the best one so Christie suspension it is, every game".

They simplified it in HOI2 and it seems are now back full circle because they ran out of ideas/the fans are stupid and wanted it.

I can't believe you are saying that but I guess this is RPG Codex after all...

You can make any type of tank or plane you want in HoI4 now. Want your light tanks to be fast soft attack beasts? Sure. Want them to be armored? Sure. Want super heavy tanks? Why not.
There are so many options to pick from, aiming for high armor to not be penetrated, designing tanks that can pierce enemy armor, cavalry tanks for exploiting breakthroughs, using rare weapons and suspension etc...

Sure some options are clearly worse than others but you certainly are not lacking in opportunity there. Compared to what, predesigned tank models? This system is obviously vastly superior.

As a matter of fact I watched a HoI4 MP tournament recently and it featured plenty of air plane design ideas being used between the players, a few tanks too (due to time allocated the games were fast with rather low IC so there was no chance for more heavy tank action). The way a player designed CAS or fighters was really important, especially when coupled with timing new research for new parts and frames.
 

Victor1234

Educated
Joined
Dec 17, 2022
Messages
255
I tried newest version, and I don't like it.
They added a tank and aircraft designer and it's a disaster. It's basically, the same as if player just researched tech, and clicked the selected design.

IIRC they removed modification of design by XP points. Thus, designs are static and there is basically less variability than before.
And there is the problem generals are created by telephones, thus instead of using PP for creating generals, players are using telephones. The trouble is appointing leaders into government reduces max telephones, thus...

Basically it's a mess.

Funnily in my game Germany had civil war, then created EU, and EU attacked Russia. Kinda looks like what's happening now. UK attacked Netherland because Netherland is UK's bitch.
It was (sort of?) this way in HOI1, when the tech tree was like "Here's 4 different types of suspensions with slightly different bonuses that you can pick for your tank, but the meta demands you pick the best one so Christie suspension it is, every game".

They simplified it in HOI2 and it seems are now back full circle because they ran out of ideas/the fans are stupid and wanted it.

I can't believe you are saying that but I guess this is RPG Codex after all...

You can make any type of tank or plane you want in HoI4 now. Want your light tanks to be fast soft attack beasts? Sure. Want them to be armored? Sure. Want super heavy tanks? Why not.
There are so many options to pick from, aiming for high armor to not be penetrated, designing tanks that can pierce enemy armor, cavalry tanks for exploiting breakthroughs, using rare weapons and suspension etc...

Sure some options are clearly worse than others but you certainly are not lacking in opportunity there. Compared to what, predesigned tank models? This system is obviously vastly superior.

As a matter of fact I watched a HoI4 MP tournament recently and it featured plenty of air plane design ideas being used between the players, a few tanks too (due to time allocated the games were fast with rather low IC so there was no chance for more heavy tank action). The way a player designed CAS or fighters was really important, especially when coupled with timing new research for new parts and frames.

It's not a question of whether this specific system is superior or not, but where the player's focus should be while playing, how consistent mechanics are and where the devs should add depth.

HOI4 is a game where you can micro design your own plane, but you can't tell those planes to bomb a specific unit or place, only a region in a macro way. You can minutely detail where state AA guns should physically be placed, but you can't ever have them be used against enemy fighters literally flying overhead, only bombers. You have to keep track of infantry rifles (infantry equipment) you produce since the game launched but fuel was only added as a resource in the Man the Guns DLC, 3 years after release.

It's just all over the place in terms of consistency and 'what's important'.

The plane and ship designer panders to the lowest common denominator. The kind of players that want to micro their designs for a little extra stat goodness but don't mind that Germany never runs out of fuel because trade is messed up and they can import oil from Iran somehow via land even in 1945. Or that diplomacy is so messed up, that the advice on the forums is 'save your game before the peace conference comes up and experiment'.

The player is supposed to be the 'spirit of the nation' or pretending to be Stalin/FDR or whatever, but they can't properly pick out how much of Europe to grab after the war because they're stuck in a cubicle with a slide ruler, adjusting the self-sealing fuel tanks on that newest naval bomber.
 

thesecret1

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Jun 30, 2019
Messages
5,481
To watch the game play itself? I recall once a HOI4 fan wandered into the Darkest Hour forum saying "What?!?!? You have to move every unit yourself?!?! Doesn't like the game do that for you?".
The AI is so bad it's not really capable of even playing itself in any satisfying manner. It's an endless cycle of shifting troops back and forth along the front like a retard and single province battles that take an eternity and a half to resolve. I could even appreciate a grand strategy game where you really just handle the economic side of things while relying on your generals to handle the actual warring, but for that, those generals mustn't be absolute imbeciles, and setting order through the UI mustn't feel like a harder battle than the war itself. Also the non-war side of things would need to be not-shit, which is where HoI4 fails pretty hard
 

Malakal

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Glory to Ukraine
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Nov 14, 2009
Messages
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Location
Poland
I tried newest version, and I don't like it.
They added a tank and aircraft designer and it's a disaster. It's basically, the same as if player just researched tech, and clicked the selected design.

IIRC they removed modification of design by XP points. Thus, designs are static and there is basically less variability than before.
And there is the problem generals are created by telephones, thus instead of using PP for creating generals, players are using telephones. The trouble is appointing leaders into government reduces max telephones, thus...

Basically it's a mess.

Funnily in my game Germany had civil war, then created EU, and EU attacked Russia. Kinda looks like what's happening now. UK attacked Netherland because Netherland is UK's bitch.
It was (sort of?) this way in HOI1, when the tech tree was like "Here's 4 different types of suspensions with slightly different bonuses that you can pick for your tank, but the meta demands you pick the best one so Christie suspension it is, every game".

They simplified it in HOI2 and it seems are now back full circle because they ran out of ideas/the fans are stupid and wanted it.

I can't believe you are saying that but I guess this is RPG Codex after all...

You can make any type of tank or plane you want in HoI4 now. Want your light tanks to be fast soft attack beasts? Sure. Want them to be armored? Sure. Want super heavy tanks? Why not.
There are so many options to pick from, aiming for high armor to not be penetrated, designing tanks that can pierce enemy armor, cavalry tanks for exploiting breakthroughs, using rare weapons and suspension etc...

Sure some options are clearly worse than others but you certainly are not lacking in opportunity there. Compared to what, predesigned tank models? This system is obviously vastly superior.

As a matter of fact I watched a HoI4 MP tournament recently and it featured plenty of air plane design ideas being used between the players, a few tanks too (due to time allocated the games were fast with rather low IC so there was no chance for more heavy tank action). The way a player designed CAS or fighters was really important, especially when coupled with timing new research for new parts and frames.

It's not a question of whether this specific system is superior or not, but where the player's focus should be while playing, how consistent mechanics are and where the devs should add depth.

HOI4 is a game where you can micro design your own plane, but you can't tell those planes to bomb a specific unit or place, only a region in a macro way. You can minutely detail where state AA guns should physically be placed, but you can't ever have them be used against enemy fighters literally flying overhead, only bombers. You have to keep track of infantry rifles (infantry equipment) you produce since the game launched but fuel was only added as a resource in the Man the Guns DLC, 3 years after release.

It's just all over the place in terms of consistency and 'what's important'.

The plane and ship designer panders to the lowest common denominator. The kind of players that want to micro their designs for a little extra stat goodness but don't mind that Germany never runs out of fuel because trade is messed up and they can import oil from Iran somehow via land even in 1945. Or that diplomacy is so messed up, that the advice on the forums is 'save your game before the peace conference comes up and experiment'.

The player is supposed to be the 'spirit of the nation' or pretending to be Stalin/FDR or whatever, but they can't properly pick out how much of Europe to grab after the war because they're stuck in a cubicle with a slide ruler, adjusting the self-sealing fuel tanks on that newest naval bomber.

I wouldn't want to micro my AA or selecting which planes attack what anyway, its a strategy game not micro nightmare.

Plus its better than previous iterations of the game. I don't understand your criticism, its taking a game, seeing how it plays and then complaining its not playing in a vastly different way.
 

Victor1234

Educated
Joined
Dec 17, 2022
Messages
255
It is a micro nightmare though, but only in certain random places. That's my point.

You can design your own airplanes, but you can't make your own alliance with another country that's not on a pre-determined list. Alliances don't come from diplomatic interactions like in other Pdox games or prior HOIs, but whether specific countries select an option on their focus tree.

It's a game that plays super micro in some areas (design a new naval bomber, I upgrade the railroad level between Lipetsk and Tambov from 1 to 2) and super macro in others (I shall bomb the Benelux region today, I form the Stresa Front faction with pre-determined cast).

To put it another way: Production is very micro, diplomacy is very macro, if that's easier.
 

Raghar

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Messages
22,230
Recent versions of HoI4 shows they have bad art direction. Basically, they might be able to program something sensible, but they kill balance by horde of DLCs. They would need to create n+1 cases for every additional DLC. And basically, they can balance only fully fledged game, and not everyone wants to pony bags of money for every DLC.

If by click wait 70 days then win you mean US political tree. Then it kinda can feel like this, but US needs to spend extreme effort to be even allowed to click that tree. Alas they didn't implement false flag operations against Japan, and Japan isn't fighting with China every playthrough. (Sometimes they are commies.)

IIRC version 1.7.x had decent variations and replayability. Version 1.9.x still had passable variations in global political scene and typically managed to screw up the world in global war in some interesting way. Recent versions... I'm not sure about that.

But frankly, HoI4 is one of few games that has command "AI stop beating Itally in North Africa so hard. (Go more easy on them.)" Thus they found one of problems game developers encounters when they want to create INTERESTING WWII game.

Because when AI is at least somehow smart, and wants to get Italy out of North Africa, it would spend industry to make weapons and logistics to be able to deploy sufficient forces to mop Italians out of Africa quickly, to avoid wasting valuable time on irrelevant area.


(A lot of simulations of WWII with decent AI looks quite differently than history books.)
 
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I wouldn't want to micro my AA or selecting which planes attack what anyway, its a strategy game not micro nightmare.
A strategy game where you can't order your planes to bomb enemies before you attack them.

To watch the game play itself? I recall once a HOI4 fan wandered into the Darkest Hour forum saying "What?!?!? You have to move every unit yourself?!?! Doesn't like the game do that for you?".
The AI is so bad it's not really capable of even playing itself in any satisfying manner. It's an endless cycle of shifting troops back and forth along the front like a retard and single province battles that take an eternity and a half to resolve. I could even appreciate a grand strategy game where you really just handle the economic side of things while relying on your generals to handle the actual warring, but for that, those generals mustn't be absolute imbeciles, and setting order through the UI mustn't feel like a harder battle than the war itself. Also the non-war side of things would need to be not-shit, which is where HoI4 fails pretty hard

I didn't think anyone appreciated Victoria 3.
 

Stavrophore

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Strap Yourselves In
Are there any other well made, fleshed out, semi-realistic mods like Black Ice out there? I've tried Worlds Ablaze, Ultra Historical Mod, Total War mod and Darkest Hour and Black Ice is still most complicated out of these four. As for modern times, only Modern Day stand. The rest of the modding community is literal communist troons with horrible taste and trying to pigeon hole their "ebul nazis" shit visual novel like TNO.
 

None

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Are there any other well made, fleshed out, semi-realistic mods like Black Ice out there? I've tried Worlds Ablaze, Ultra Historical Mod, Total War mod and Darkest Hour and Black Ice is still most complicated out of these four. As for modern times, only Modern Day stand. The rest of the modding community is literal communist troons with horrible taste and trying to pigeon hole their "ebul nazis" shit visual novel like TNO.
I stopped playing before NSB released, but I remember Hearts of Oak being solid. It was "tasteful" in its additions and changes compared to some of the heavy handed stuff mods like Black Ice bring. Not sure if it is still supported.
 

Stavrophore

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Strap Yourselves In
Are there any other well made, fleshed out, semi-realistic mods like Black Ice out there? I've tried Worlds Ablaze, Ultra Historical Mod, Total War mod and Darkest Hour and Black Ice is still most complicated out of these four. As for modern times, only Modern Day stand. The rest of the modding community is literal communist troons with horrible taste and trying to pigeon hole their "ebul nazis" shit visual novel like TNO.
I stopped playing before NSB released, but I remember Hearts of Oak being solid. It was "tasteful" in its additions and changes compared to some of the heavy handed stuff mods like Black Ice bring. Not sure if it is still supported.

I see that BlackIce on HoI3 is still under active development, hmm i might reinstall HoI3. It will be hard to stand the super bleak hoi3 eyesore map though.
 

thesheeep

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The AI is so bad it's not really capable of even playing itself in any satisfying manner. It's an endless cycle of shifting troops back and forth along the front like a retard and single province battles that take an eternity and a half to resolve.
I'd never play the game without the AI automation, as all that micromanagement for the simplest of tasks would drive me crazy.

What I do is I use the AI for drawing frontlines, getting troops there, draw the plans, etc.
But once the actual action starts, I execute the plans for the bonus yet only let it do its thing in safe-ish parts of the frontline and micromanage the tougher sections myself.

AI is good enough for stuff like holding lines, defending coastal areas (if you give it enough units), etc.
It's certainly not optimal, but IMO that's fine - if it was, what would the player still be doing?
 

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