Is Dark Souls overrated?

[CptMace]

Dude Dark Souls 1 was just as fucked. The spider boss thing is there to remind everybody how fucked the hitboxes are.

T'is ok, I still liked it though.

 

[Reapa]

what is this console filth discussion doing in grpg?

 

[Villagkouras]

How can a game that defines a genre and creates a new recognisable term (souls-like games) be overrated?

The effect of Dark Souls in gaming industry is not a matter of taste anymore, it's a fact. Take for example Iron Maiden in metal. Did their sound was 100% original? Of course not, they combined elements of metal, classic rock and punk, adding their personal touch. But they did it so well, they defined the genre. One may hate them, like Dark Souls, but a fact is a fact.

So, no. Dark Souls is not overrated. Only someone with an self-overrated ego can try to say that.

 

[Kahr]

what is this console filth discussion doing in grpg?

DAik0 SuLs iS bS3teSd CrBg eV4h

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Hitboxes are about the same in all the games - mostly very good, occasionally weird and glitchy. It just became popular to specifically bitch about them in DS2, so now retards with no ability to form their own opinion keep repeating it. Point in case, the gif with Pursuer's stab attack can easily be reproduced in DS1 by fighting super Ornstein.

While Dark Souls' popularity was artificially inflated by a sudden fascination over hard games as if they were uncommon, I still think it has a lot of legitimate qualities and I'm really curious about your full opinion. You should make a thread about it if it's too long, I"ll definitely read it.

I don't really have a desire to literally write an essay about why it's ...poorly designed are maybe the better words. Suffice it to say it's a J-action-RPG in sheep's clothing. The respawning mobs? They are literally a different version of random encounters in any JRPG. The difficulty? Amateurish understanding of it. You just have to memorize the A.I patterns (mostly bosses) while trying to not gnaw your wrist veins out of boredom from the constant respawns that I already covered. Let's get back to the respawns actually - there's a reason people stopped designing games with such frustrating respawns, it's because arcade games were made to gobble up your coins as much as possible. With the advent of the PC and save systems you simply don't need such a cheap way to lengthen playtime, and this is what it ultimately is, artificially lengthening playtime. When you've already conquered a challenge you don't learn anything from doing it again, it just wastes time you could spend mastering the next one. This is my main problem with the game, it's just an archaic JRPG-like arcade game that is masquerading as a serious attempt at game design. And people go into fervor-infused catatonic trance from proclaiming this outdated mechanic as intentional genius. It's a Skinner's Box in a different context. The combat is also simplistic to a fault and is the same from start to finish, you just need to memorize different patterns. I think that's just part of the genre as a whole and I don't know how much I can fault the developers for it. They should've chosen another genre maybe, but I digress.

The good part of Dark Souls is the exploration and how well it gels with the narrative, it mirrors your character's knowledge about his/her surroundings and that's good. I do think that was an unintentional consequence from implementing the markers left by other players though, they just decided it could be left as vague as possible to accommodate this feature. I guess it turned out alright in the end for them, but that doesn't mean it was intentional. It's on a trial and error basis and not discovery through journey and this could use some improvement. The setting is some person's very loose understanding of medieval European society. It doesn't have anything going for it other than "everyone is dead/dying", OK, but so what? This is just the premise, where do we go from here? It's a "save the world" story and YOU are the ONLY ONE who can DO IT. It doesn't have any serious exploration of the questions the premise raises. Since the story doesn't go anywhere it's a more elaborate version of those pretentious hipster bullshit walking simulators, like Dear Esther and the like, in terms of the ongoing narrative. It's like a static painting that takes hours to observe. Not to mention that the respawning enemies are a ludo-narrative dissonance, because everything else is fading away but the enemies just keep coming back for an endless parade. It would be far more effective and in tune with the narrative if they stayed dead and your actions somehow contribute to the deserted and death-like state the world is in. The game just got popular because people confuse meaningful difficulty with repetition and archaic game design.

"JRPG-like arcade game" , wow. I don't normally reply to retarded shit on the Codex, else I would never stop typing, but this was just too precious to pass up. Anything else you'd like to tell us about antiquated game design, bro? Does it also upset you that you can't save every turn in games with TB combat? I mean, it's such bullshit artificial difficulty to force you to redo the whole encounter, right?

Dark Souls doesn't take its design tropes from arcade games (not directly anyway), nor from JRPGs (which are predominantly not real-time, and feature random encounters rather than checkpoints/respawns, not that I expect you to grasp the difference), but from the likes of Super Metroid or Symphony of the Night, and has respawns for the same reasons those games do (incidentally also the reasons why System Shock 2 has them) - and just like them, it lets you bypass enemies in most circumstances. Have you even played any actual arcade games in your life? Any JRPGs? Your "analysis" is about on the level of retards on GameFAQs proclaiming TB combat to be outdated and unnecessary.

 

[CptMace]

Hitboxes are about the same in all the games - mostly very good, occasionally weird and glitchy. It just became popular to specifically bitch about them in DS2, so now retards with no ability to form their own opinion keep repeating it.

I already complained about shit hitboxes long before Dark Souls II was even a known project, so kindly go fuck yourself.
Although, since you want to talk about Dark Souls, let's do it. It's Demon Souls, but in a very, very bland version. You get a high fantasy cliché world in place of the chtulhu inspired dark fantasy of DeS. You get all the tropes, Minas Tirith Anor Londo the fortified white stone city, the fortress full of traps with pendulum giant axes, the magical forest with magical walking trees, the ghost city...
Needless to add it, but I'll still do, they managed to have a shittiest framerate than in DeS as well.
Now, still like these games, they're better than most other action games. That's no reason to talk about "mechanical excellence" and whatnot.

 

[Xenich]

How can a game that defines a genre and creates a new recognisable term (souls-like games) be overrated?

The effect of Dark Souls in gaming industry is not a matter of taste anymore, it's a fact. Take for example Iron Maiden in metal. Did their sound was 100% original? Of course not, they combined elements of metal, classic rock and punk, adding their personal touch. But they did it so well, they defined the genre. One may hate them, like Dark Souls, but a fact is a fact.

So, no. Dark Souls is not overrated. Only someone with an self-overrated ego can try to say that.

Maybe it is because I grew up many years before you kids, but I don't see Dark Souls as anything more than a 3d arcade game with RPG elements tacked on. The basic concept of play is no different than games 30 years ago.

 

[Grimlorn]

I do love Souls' games. But talking of mechanical excellence is straight out retarded. The hitboxes, which are a crucial element of this kind of games, are all fucked in Dark Souls 1 & 2 (not much in DeS, haven't played BB). How many bosses will miss their attack simply because you stick as close to them as you can. Ridiculous.

I think it's an online problem personally. I played DS2 offline and never had those problems with the hitboxes. But stuff like that always happens in PVP, so my guess is there is also a similar delay as well with the PvE aspect due to the always online nature of the game but I'm not sure. Could be a patch thing as well as I played the game when it was patched several times and not at release.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Hitboxes are about the same in all the games - mostly very good, occasionally weird and glitchy. It just became popular to specifically bitch about them in DS2, so now retards with no ability to form their own opinion keep repeating it.

I already complained about shit hitboxes long before Dark Souls II was even a known project, so kindly go fuck yourself.
Although, since you want to talk about Dark Souls, let's do it. It's Demon Souls, but in a very, very bland version. You get a high fantasy cliché world in place of the chtulhu inspired dark fantasy of DeS. You get all the tropes, Minas Tirith Anor Londo the fortified white stone city, the fortress full of traps with pendulum giant axes, the magical forest with magical walking trees, the ghost city...
Needless to add it, but I'll still do, they managed to have a shittiest framerate than in DeS as well.
Now, still like these games, they're better than most other action games. That's no reason to talk about "mechanical excellence" and whatnot.

Ok? In general, I'd agree with the opinion that DeS has the best art design in the series (the one aspect where it overshadows its successors), but it's not because of "Cthulhu inspired dark fantasy" or whatever - the aesthetics overall are quite close, Dark Souls is about as dark fantasy as DeS, with the sole exception of Tower of Latria. Which is an awesome looking location, but the others are much more vanilla, and sometimes just really dull, like Stonefang Tunnel. Shrine of Storms also stands out, but there's nothing particularly Lovecraftian about it.

As for "mechanical excellence", which action game would you describe that way? The core combat mechanics of Souls games (not the character systems and whatnot, those are usually a mess) tend to be well designed and fair. They're long games with lots of content, so occasionally you run into some bullshit, but not enough to justify any real complaints, imo. The occasional busted hitbox in a Souls game hasn't caused half the annoyance as, say, the platforming in Ninja Gaiden Black or the shmup segments and QTEs in Kamiya games.

 

[CptMace]

I guess you're right regarding the mechanics. They're not that much annoying. They're kinda annoying though. Especially for people like me who played the games on the PS first, and had to endure the awful fps drop in Blighttown.
Though I think DeS is more lovecraftian that you make it seem to be. The whole worlds 2 - 3 - 5 are filled with psychos in what seem to be locations taken straight from hell. They feel like a journey into madness.
The castle doesn't feel as deranged, but there's still something very uncanny in its atmosphere and the whole plot surrounding it, the phalanx is quite a monstruous thing imo.
The 4th world is basically a crypt for the most part, nothing exciting there.

In comparision, Dark Souls is about a curse, and people lose their mind as well yes, but it just doesn't feel like a journey through a tormented mind. Just a cursed regular high fantasy land.

 

[sullynathan]

I never asked to be part of this thread

 

[Lacrymas]

Maybe it is because I grew up many years before you kids, but I don't see Dark Souls as anything more than a 3d arcade game with RPG elements tacked on. The basic concept of play is no different than games 30 years ago.

Exactly, it just takes these concepts and design and pushes it to an extreme, showing exactly where the weak points are and where we should be working to improve/change. It raises questions, which is good.

To everyone who is quoting me - you either didn't read my responses previously or take my words out of context. What I meant by JRPG-like is the design tropes it uses, like grinding for incremental increases of stats which are used only for bigger numbers; respawns that are allegorical to random encounters in JRPGs, they just aren't random, you know exactly when they will pop up, they aren't akin to Metroidvanias because the respawns there allowed you to get to places you previously couldn't, which is a well-thought-out system; I've covered why it's an arcade game many times; etc. etc.

About pattern memorization - memorizing something is the most basic mental process we can do, animals can do it too, that's why it allows so many people to bash their heads on a boss a bajillion times until they get it right. What it requires of you is to decipher the pattern the developers prepared for you to memorize, instead of developing your own tactics and strategies. The gameplay accommodates the lowest common denominator and, having the illusion of difficulty, makes people feel good about themselves, ergo popularity.

I implore you (general you) to read more carefully and not jump to conclusions from taking words out of context.

 

[Riskbreaker]

Hitboxes are about the same in all the games - mostly very good, occasionally weird and glitchy. It just became popular to specifically bitch about them in DS2, so now retards with no ability to form their own opinion keep repeating it.

My experience is my own, and my experience of DS2's hotboxes is what I stated it to be. I shall repeat it as much as I desire. My opinion of DS2 was formed before that of general public began to swing in any particular way: I slogged thru it for around 20 hours despite preordering it and starting to play it on release, whereas I spent around 200 hours on first game 's console version and around 100 on its PC port.
I can provide you with a pic of my related Steam stats if you so desire.

 

[Akratus]

Exactly, it just takes these concepts and design and pushes it to an extreme, showing exactly where the weak points are and where we should be working to improve/change. It raises questions, which is good.

To everyone who is quoting me - you either didn't read my responses previously or take my words out of context. What I meant by JRPG-like is the design tropes it uses, like grinding for incremental increases of stats which are used only for bigger numbers; respawns that are allegorical to random encounters in JRPGs, they just aren't random, you know exactly when they will pop up, they aren't akin to Metroidvanias because the respawns there allowed you to get to places you previously couldn't, which is a well-thought-out system; I've covered why it's an arcade game many times; etc. etc.

About pattern memorization - memorizing something is the most basic mental process we can do, animals can do it too, that's why it allows so many people to bash their heads on a boss a bajillion times until they get it right. What it requires of you is to decipher the pattern the developers prepared for you to memorize, instead of developing your own tactics and strategies. The gameplay accommodates the lowest common denominator and, having the illusion of difficulty, makes people feel good about themselves, ergo popularity.

I implore you (general you) to read more carefully and not jump to conclusions from taking words out of context.

I get what you're saying, and you're absolutely correct. Your intelligence is much too vast for such an unintelligent game.

 

[Dev_Anj]

they aren't akin to Metroidvanias because the respawns there allowed you to get to places you previously couldn't, which is a well-thought-out system;

Could you explain what this means? I didn't get it even though I've played several Metroidvanias before. This isn't a sarcastic question, I'm genuinely curious.

 

[tormund]

Lacrymas
Why are you so intent on "proving" that Souls games are bad or that their fanbase is stupid in the first place? I'm under impression that they aren't your "type" of games to begin with, which makes your efforts look even weirder.

 

[Lacrymas]

I get what you're saying, and you're absolutely correct. Your intelligent is much too vast for such an unintelligent game.

Yes, let's resort to ad hominem attacks, that's always a good idea. I already listed the many good points of DS, the most important of which is that it pushes the boundaries of this particular design "line" and it starts bursting at the seams. We need to figure out where to go from here.

they aren't akin to Metroidvanias because the respawns there allowed you to get to places you previously couldn't, which is a well-thought-out system;

Could you explain what this means? I didn't get it even though I've played several Metroidvanias before. This isn't a sarcastic question, I'm genuinely curious.

You can exploit them for double jumps for example, to get to places where you couldn't, or use them in combination with gadgets you get after you encounter them for the first time etc. They recontextualize themselves in relation to the advancement of your character. I might be conflating 2D platformers with Metroidvanias though.

Lacrymas
Why are you so intent on "proving" that Souls games are bad or that their fanbase is stupid in the first place? I'm under impression that they aren't your "type" of games to begin with, which makes your efforts look even weirder.

I already mentioned multiple times that I don't think they are bad, quite the contrary.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Exactly, it just takes these concepts and design and pushes it to an extreme, showing exactly where the weak points are and where we should be working to improve/change. It raises questions, which is good.

To everyone who is quoting me - you either didn't read my responses previously or take my words out of context. What I meant by JRPG-like is the design tropes it uses, like grinding for incremental increases of stats which are used only for bigger numbers; respawns that are allegorical to random encounters in JRPGs, they just aren't random, you know exactly when they will pop up, they aren't akin to Metroidvanias because the respawns there allowed you to get to places you previously couldn't, which is a well-thought-out system; I've covered why it's an arcade game many times; etc. etc.

About pattern memorization - memorizing something is the most basic mental process we can do, animals can do it too, that's why it allows so many people to bash their heads on a boss a bajillion times until they get it right. What it requires of you is to decipher the pattern the developers prepared for you to memorize, instead of developing your own tactics and strategies. The gameplay accommodates the lowest common denominator and, having the illusion of difficulty, makes people feel good about themselves, ergo popularity.

I implore you (general you) to read more carefully and not jump to conclusions from taking words out of context.

I get what you're saying, and you're absolutely correct. Your intelligent is much too vast for such an unintelligent game.

Obviously, a 30+ hour open-ended ARPG has respawns for the same reason a 20-45 minute arcade game restarts you at a checkpoint when you die. It's all been figured out by his superior intellect.

they aren't akin to Metroidvanias because the respawns there allowed you to get to places you previously couldn't, which is a well-thought-out system;

Could you explain what this means? I didn't get it even though I've played several Metroidvanias before. This isn't a sarcastic question, I'm genuinely curious.

The guy has very definite opinions on arcade games, despite obviously never having played any, so it wouldn't surprise me if the same were true for Metroidvanias.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Also the setting is wacky and japanese:

Spoiler

You forgot the most Japanese part of them all:

 

[Akratus]

It's funny how they explain that design choice. The concept artist drew her with those tits, and he was so proud of his creation Miyazaki didn't have the heart to refuse it.

 

[sullynathan]

Maybe it is because I grew up many years before you kids, but I don't see Dark Souls as anything more than a 3d arcade game with RPG elements tacked on. The basic concept of play is no different than games 30 years ago.

Exactly, it just takes these concepts and design and pushes it to an extreme, showing exactly where the weak points are and where we should be working to improve/change. It raises questions, which is good.

To everyone who is quoting me - you either didn't read my responses previously or take my words out of context. What I meant by JRPG-like is the design tropes it uses, like grinding for incremental increases of stats which are used only for bigger numbers; respawns that are allegorical to random encounters in JRPGs, they just aren't random, you know exactly when they will pop up, they aren't akin to Metroidvanias because the respawns there allowed you to get to places you previously couldn't, which is a well-thought-out system; I've covered why it's an arcade game many times; etc. etc.

About pattern memorization - memorizing something is the most basic mental process we can do, animals can do it too, that's why it allows so many people to bash their heads on a boss a bajillion times until they get it right. What it requires of you is to decipher the pattern the developers prepared for you to memorize, instead of developing your own tactics and strategies. The gameplay accommodates the lowest common denominator and, having the illusion of difficulty, makes people feel good about themselves, ergo popularity.

I implore you (general you) to read more carefully and not jump to conclusions from taking words out of context.

You can develop your own tactics, strategies, movesets and all that shit. There's a reason why the more difficult bosses in the series are the ones with the greater amounts of moves that can catch you off-guard, so by this point the difficulty isn't an illusion.

 

[Kahr]

Jajaja, tetas, muy cómico.

 

[Lacrymas]

You can develop your own tactics, strategies, movesets and all that shit. There's a reason why the more difficult bosses in the series are the ones with the greater amounts of moves that can catch you off-guard, so by this point the difficulty isn't an illusion.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. Can you give examples of these bosses and explain why you think we can create our own tactics regarding them?

 

[tormund]

The main thing that has me pining to come back to Dark Souls 1, and try out Demon's Souls in the future despite the fact that controllers are kryptonite to me, is the atmosphere. Not since the first two diablo games have I enjoyed a games setting, world, art design, atmosphere and music so much, where they worked in tandem to create the exact kind of immersion I want. There are plenty of games with good gameplay that I dropped kind of earleir than I liked because they were so visually unappealing. But Dark Souls 1 does it perfectly, and I'm just a fag for exactly that type of thing.

Speaking of atmosphere, Dark Souls is only game to come close to my first experience with Diablo 1. It's almost like fully 3D Diablo 1, in terms of its bleak & creepy dark fantasy atmosphere and environments. Which is probably why I liked even the indoors and underground areas more than most people did.

 

[Sigourn]

But will it blend?

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Occident fags itt to are just butthurt that a nippon console action game turned out to be far more stat heavy and reliant than their most spergy pnp tabletop shite. Has combat that wasn't plucked straight from beelzebubs arse, tells a better story through its environments than the most wordy NPC obsidian and fagellone pukes out. And they wrapped it up in a genuinely decent Japanese spin on Arthurian legend rather than rehashed it on another guff dnd license.

Get rekt.