Jagged Alliance 3 from Haemimont Games

[raeven]

These games should become as autistic as Tarkov instead of simplifing stuff.

As you mentioned Tarkov, actually I think that is the best successor to Jagged Alliances inventory management.
To bad it is a MMO extraction shooter.

Too bad it's unreleased.

When a game has been beta for six years, it seems unlikely that it will ever be released.

 

[Zombra]

Give me JA1 and DG where everything you bring home just goes into one list, and every merc can get whatever they want from the warehouse at the beginning of the day.

I'm fine with this, it's an acceptable compromise. But abstracting away ammo is one more thing that whittles away at the potential for interesting and unexpected situations to arise on the battlefield. I've often found myself in situations in previous games where a character has run out of ammo. What now? Does he run over to a squadmate and borrow some ammo from him? But now that guy is low on ammo! Does he risk running over to a downed soldier and scavenging his corpse? But oh no, that's the wrong ammo! Better take his crappy gun too, then. Now my guy is a worse shot. He might have to get closer to the enemy before pulling the trigger, or he might be forced to use one of the precious grenades brought along for emergencies. If my frustration at this type of news seems disproportionate it's because there's a war on against this sort of stuff, and every decision made in the name of streamlining chips away at it. A little bit here, a little bit there, and soon you've got nuXCOM banality. It's decline, plain and simple.

And believe it or not I agree here too. Removing ALL the drama from ammo management is a shame and I feel like Hamameiemamont went a bit too far here by having ammo exist in "Hammerspace" where everyone can access it. If ammo is going to be part of the game economy then it shouldn't be that magical. Otherwise, it should simply be removed from the economy altogether like in XCOM, where it made perfect sense that everyone was assumed to carry 5+ clips to every conflict because why wouldn't they? It wasn't a post apocalypse world there, so it was fine to assume that XCOM's high tech flying fortress simply had facilities for producing ample stock. But JA3 I guess is supposed to have scarcity so yeah they overcorrected.

I think the right balance to strike comes from Wasteland 2 where no matter which PC picked up a given type of ammo out of combat, they would automatically hand it to a person who had that type of gun instead of making me drag it back and forth. Then I could fine tune the exact proportions to taste if more than one character needed that type of ammo. Of course the W2 solution doesn't take multiple squads or sectors into account.

 

[Alienman]

Another thing with ammo is that you have to make sacrifices that will now be missing. The heavy mg guy with millions of rounds vs. the more rounded merc that carries more stuff beyond ammo. Where are those choices when ammo will no longer be an issue (as I understand it)? Why not make every merc carry a saw, or have the heavy guy carry all kinds of extra stuff?

I get it if you are making a game with boardgame style of rules, something more abstract, but this - when you constantly say you want it as true to source as possible? Man, I don't know. Long since I have been so confused by a game.

 

[udm]

The front man running out of hollow point ammo (and, uh, just ammo in general) while fighting bloodcats or crepitus is one of the most intense experiences ever.

 

[Zombra]

Where are those choices when ammo will no longer be an issue (as I understand it)?

There must be scarcity of some kind. Otherwise there's no reason for this system at all; they would have just made it infinite ammo like XCOM.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Give me JA1 and DG where everything you bring home just goes into one list, and every merc can get whatever they want from the warehouse at the beginning of the day.

I'm fine with this, it's an acceptable compromise. But abstracting away ammo is one more thing that whittles away at the potential for interesting and unexpected situations to arise on the battlefield. I've often found myself in situations in previous games where a character has run out of ammo. What now? Does he run over to a squadmate and borrow some ammo from him? But now that guy is low on ammo! Does he risk running over to a downed soldier and scavenging his corpse? But oh no, that's the wrong ammo! Better take his crappy gun too, then. Now my guy is a worse shot. He might have to get closer to the enemy before pulling the trigger, or he might be forced to use one of the precious grenades brought along for emergencies. If my frustration at this type of news seems disproportionate it's because there's a war on against this sort of stuff, and every decision made in the name of streamlining chips away at it. A little bit here, a little bit there, and soon you've got nuXCOM banality. It's decline, plain and simple.

And believe it or not I agree here too. Removing ALL the drama from ammo management is a shame and I feel like Hamameiemamont went a bit too far here by having ammo exist in "Hammerspace" where everyone can access it. If ammo is going to be part of the game economy then it shouldn't be that magical. Otherwise, it should simply be removed from the economy altogether like in XCOM, where it made perfect sense that everyone was assumed to carry 5+ clips to every conflict because why wouldn't they? It wasn't a post apocalypse world there, so it was fine to assume that XCOM's high tech flying fortress simply had facilities for producing ample stock. But JA3 I guess is supposed to have scarcity so yeah they overcorrected.

I think the right balance to strike comes from Wasteland 2 where no matter which PC picked up a given type of ammo out of combat, they would automatically hand it to a person who had that type of gun instead of making me drag it back and forth. Then I could fine tune the exact proportions to taste if more than one character needed that type of ammo. Of course the W2 solution doesn't take multiple squads or sectors into account.

I sincerely hope that your afterlife is spent managing inventory in 7,62 High Calibre.
Cheers.

 

[Stavrophore]

I love MOLLE autism of 1.13, which was further expanded with mods for 1.13. Who doesn't like to tacticooly equip their mercs fit for purpose? Like grenadier having grenadier pouches, LMG guy having drum/box mag pouches, mortar team having big backpacks for all the shells. Idk i just like that, its another bit of immersion for me.

 

[bobocrunch]

Inventory autism is one of the best parts of the genre, 7.62 set the standard for loadouts that would make African guerillas weep and I'm sad JA3 seems to be moving in the opposite direction

 

[Stavrophore]

Inventory autism is one of the best parts of the genre, 7.62 set the standard for loadouts that would make African guerillas weep and I'm sad JA3 seems to be moving in the opposite direction

This is pleasant autism for me.

Medic with custom fitted vest having three double stacked AR mag holders, two grenade pouch for defensive contact grenades, two smoke grenades for covering when healing, gas mask on carabiner, a canteen pouch, a first aid kit pouch, and standard light TT 3 day pack with sleepsack and medkit. This is a rookie with low strength hence the weight penalty, i can use a lighter protection than spectra armor to decrease the weight, but survivability is worth a longer travel time, and it also train strength. Every team needs a mule anyway, that will carry spare stuff, the usual 70 strength mercs/imps are really poor with weight - i think 1.13 gives too much penalties for weight, this merc doesn't even have SAPI plates inside the vest.

 

[thesheeep]

Loadout assignment and managing space and weight with that is great.
Manually dragging tiny inventory ammo pixels around again and again and again and again is menial bullshit. If you need that kind of stuff, have a deep look inwards and analyze wtf is wrong with you.

Or go play Cataclysm:DDA which simulates every volume in every clip in every pocket of every piece of clothing you are wearing. That's what I did until I discovered the joy of Cataclysm: Bright Nights...

Seems like JA3 removes the menial bullshit while still having a need to think about reasonable loadouts and you can't just ignore ammo entirely.
A bit of a bummer about removing the weight and not having a representation of how much space to use for ammo on a given merc, but I guess strength providing additional inventory space somewhat balances that.

How is the "ammo pool" calculated, though? Does every merc provide some space to it?

 

[Beowulf]

JA3 seems to already provide more options for attachments than vanilla JA2. The modular approach to equipment, especially tactical harnesses, backpacks and other item containers introduced in 1.13 was a great feature for existing players, but can overwhelm new players, and that's one of the reasons why vanilla JA2 is recommended for first time players.
Sure, the added customization options is nice for all of us, who like a less abstract approach to battlefield tactics.

Anyway, shared ammo pool is pure decline, mercs should carry their own loads and guns should have their individual ammo pool. It is a strange design decision.
A more abstract and user friendly solution would be welcome in some general inventory management, like post battle looting and moving items to a car trunk, selling in bulk from all team members and so on.

 

[Zombra]

It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.

In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that

I thought about this a little more, and Jagged Alliance is just as much about walking from place to place as it is about shooting people. In fact it is MORE about walking around then it is about shooting people. Therefore if simulation is more important than good gameplay, shoe management should be a much bigger deal than ammo management.

 

[Alienman]

Shoes is a bit much, but sickness, heat and cold should be a thing. Maybe it is already, I don't know.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Jagged Alliance is just as much about walking from place to place as it is about shooting people.

If it were about walking the travel aspect would not be so greatly abstracted in comparison to the combat and ammo management.
Loadout matters in a tactical engagement. The getting to the engagement part can be abstracted out without affecting the tactical engagement and the associated resource management.

Manually dragging tiny inventory ammo pixels around again and again and again and again is menial bullshit.

Yeah, no argument there.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Don't recall Meltdown being so insufferable in JA2. Was she always that cringy? Last time i hired her was decades ago and in russian version and she didn't sound like a retarded tryhard.

Meltdown was modeled after Misery from the Stephen King movie.

She was also one of the female characters that worked for me. I always had her in my team. She was low cost, an ambidextrous shooter that could hit many low damages hits. And she got along with some of my other favorite mercs.

 

[Burning Bridges]

New trailer.

When JA2 was made people in their late 20s looked 10 years older than today. That's why they end up with this kindergarten of mercs.

Also if you want to remake games about the 1990s don't hire people who were not even born in the 1990s. Or you will inevitable get some kind of freakshow.

At the end of the day it may eventually sell well because there are not that many people left who played JA2 or even JA1, and the formula is timeless. If it is so hard that you fail your first playthroughs. If it's easy too then I don't even get the point of making it. Jagged Alliance was always about failing miserably and later beating a game that required training, like chess.

 

[Zombra]

If it were about walking the travel aspect would not be so greatly abstracted in comparison to the combat and ammo management.

So you're saying that the part that is micromanaged is the part that is micromanaged and therefore it's good that that part has a lot of micromanagement?

 

[ArchAngel]

It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.

In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that

I thought about this a little more, and Jagged Alliance is just as much about walking from place to place as it is about shooting people. In fact it is MORE about walking around then it is about shooting people. Therefore if simulation is more important than good gameplay, shoe management should be a much bigger deal than ammo management.

You missed the point completely.
Walking is what everyone does, if you are not walking and that should have an impact on the world (mad max world it would be about driving) then it needs its own simulation aspects.
What they do differently than everyone is have combat gear, find dangerous situations and try to kill/survive.
Gear part needs to simulated as well as getting out of tough situations or killing.
Not to mention this game does not promote itself as being a walking simulator

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.

In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that

I thought about this a little more, and Jagged Alliance is just as much about walking from place to place as it is about shooting people. In fact it is MORE about walking around then it is about shooting people. Therefore if simulation is more important than good gameplay, shoe management should be a much bigger deal than ammo management.

Shoes are all well and good but having dry socks is where excellence lies.

 

[geno]

Shoes are all well and good but having dry socks is where excellence lies.

Related

Source

 

[Zombra]

Walking is what everyone does, if you are not walking and that should have an impact on the world (mad max world it would be about driving) then it needs its own simulation aspects.
What they do differently than everyone is have combat gear, find dangerous situations and try to kill/survive.

Got it, so games should be about the exciting part that we don't get to do in real life.

That's a valid argument.

It also tells me that your apartment is a shithole and you probably smell like ass, because you don't spend enough time in real life putting laundry into the closet, forks and spoons into the silverware drawer, or hygiene products into the medicine cabinet. There's no other explanation for "putting things away" to be a thrilling fantasy for you.

 

[oasis789]

It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.

In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that

I thought about this a little more, and Jagged Alliance is just as much about walking from place to place as it is about shooting people. In fact it is MORE about walking around then it is about shooting people. Therefore if simulation is more important than good gameplay, shoe management should be a much bigger deal than ammo management.

thats a great question, does this game have the sector overworld map and managing the logistics of helicoptering and trucking squads around?

 

[Zombra]

thats a great question, does this game have the sector overworld map and managing the logistics of helicoptering and trucking squads around?

Yeah, the overworld map is there. Unsurprisingly simplified looking compared to JA2 but it's there. I'm sure someone less drunk than I can pull up a video reference quickly.

 

[ArchAngel]

Walking is what everyone does, if you are not walking and that should have an impact on the world (mad max world it would be about driving) then it needs its own simulation aspects.
What they do differently than everyone is have combat gear, find dangerous situations and try to kill/survive.

Got it, so games should be about the exciting part that we don't get to do in real life.

That's a valid argument.

It also tells me that your apartment is a shithole and you probably smell like ass, because you don't spend enough time in real life putting laundry into the closet, forks and spoons into the silverware drawer, or hygiene products into the medicine cabinet. There's no other explanation for "putting things away" to be a thrilling fantasy for you.

Lol this went personal fast

 

[ERYFKRAD]

You missed the point completely.

Just like he does with entire parts of games.