Jagged Alliance 3 from Haemimont Games

[Fargus]

Don't recall Meltdown being so insufferable in JA2. Was she always that cringy? Last time i hired her was decades ago and in russian version and she didn't sound like a retarded tryhard.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Voice acting sounds corny

Perfect.

 

[Abu Antar]

For those who pre-ordered: Yes, we know that the game will likely (90%) disappoint us. We do it anyway, and we will not be alone in our hopes and dreams being crushed.

To be a bit more serious, there are things about the game that I think will be good, but there also seems like there are some bad decisions. The question is only how much the bad will outweigh the good.

 

[raeven]

Listened to dev stream today. Sounds like all ammo will be in a shared pool, even during combat, not in each individuals inventory. So that's a bummer.

There also will not be weight factored in, however the size of a mercs inventory grid is determined by their strength stat.

 

[Alienman]

Shame the simulation approach to the game seems to be half-hearted.

 

[Zombra]

Not gonna lie, dragging tiny icons of bullets back and forth from one tiny box into another tiny box (and then into another tiny box!) is not something I will miss. At all. It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.

 

[ArchAngel]

Not gonna lie, dragging tiny icons of bullets back and forth from one tiny box into another tiny box (and then into another tiny box!) is not something I will miss. At all. It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.

In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Not gonna lie, dragging tiny icons of bullets back and forth from one tiny box into another tiny box (and then into another tiny box!) is not something I will miss. At all. It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.

In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that

It seems we're still decades away from most people developing capacity for understanding what comparisons are and how they work.

And JA3 is not brining us any closer to this utopia.

 

[Zombra]

Not gonna lie, dragging tiny icons of bullets back and forth from one tiny box into another tiny box (and then into another tiny box!) is not something I will miss. At all. It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.

In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that

I get it, and you could argue with some justice that the Jagged Alliance series is indeed "about" inventory micro-micromanagement - but I never liked that part nor cared about it.

Fun fact, I have never finished a playthrough of Jagged Alliance 2.
I loved the combat gameplay, strategy, roster management, militia training etc. but it always came down to HOURS of a million guns lying around in 20 different sectors, trying to get mercs walking back and forth across the island to meet up with their correct gun, and then sometimes again to meet up with their correct ammo type, or assigning mules hauling things to centralized supply sectors, picking through their backpacks putting rifles in the big slots but oh now their weight % is over 100, drop that rifle and try to pick up a lighter one and see if that works, but make sure the 9mm uzi is going to the sector that has the 9mm ammo on the ground .... I'm glad other people love that shit and good for you but it's just so tiresome to me. Give me JA1 and DG where everything you bring home just goes into one list, and every merc can get whatever they want from the warehouse at the beginning of the day.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Give me JA1 and DG where everything you bring home just goes into one list, and every merc can get whatever they want from the warehouse at the beginning of the day.

I'm fine with this, it's an acceptable compromise. But abstracting away ammo is one more thing that whittles away at the potential for interesting and unexpected situations to arise on the battlefield. I've often found myself in situations in previous games where a character has run out of ammo. What now? Does he run over to a squadmate and borrow some ammo from him? But now that guy is low on ammo! Does he risk running over to a downed soldier and scavenging his corpse? But oh no, that's the wrong ammo! Better take his crappy gun too, then. Now my guy is a worse shot. He might have to get closer to the enemy before pulling the trigger, or he might be forced to use one of the precious grenades brought along for emergencies.

If my frustration at this type of news seems disproportionate it's because there's a war on against this sort of stuff, and every decision made in the name of streamlining chips away at it. A little bit here, a little bit there, and soon you've got nuXCOM banality. It's decline, plain and simple.

 

[ArchAngel]

Not gonna lie, dragging tiny icons of bullets back and forth from one tiny box into another tiny box (and then into another tiny box!) is not something I will miss. At all. It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.

In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that

I get it, and you could argue with some justice that the Jagged Alliance series is indeed "about" inventory micro-micromanagement - but I never liked that part nor cared about it.

Fun fact, I have never finished a playthrough of Jagged Alliance 2.
I loved the combat gameplay, strategy, roster management, militia training etc. but it always came down to HOURS of a million guns lying around in 20 different sectors, trying to get mercs walking back and forth across the island to meet up with their correct gun, and then sometimes again to meet up with their correct ammo type, or assigning mules hauling things to centralized supply sectors, picking through their backpacks putting rifles in the big slots but oh now their weight % is over 100, drop that rifle and try to pick up a lighter one and see if that works, but make sure the 9mm uzi is going to the sector that has the 9mm ammo on the ground .... I'm glad other people love that shit and good for you but it's just so tiresome to me. Give me JA1 and DG where everything you bring home just goes into one list, and every merc can get whatever they want from the warehouse at the beginning of the day.

I would say these games do not go far enough. In a game about managing your team of Operators managing ammo is as important as managing your weapon or shooting straight.
These games should become as autistic as Tarkov instead of simplifing stuff.
You know in Tarkov people can hear you reload your gun? Now that is awesome.
Here it could be translated into better stealth mechanics where different actions create sounds of different range

 

[Zombra]

I would say these games do not go far enough.

I think it's great for games to exist like you describe, for people who are not me to play. I resist your use of "these games" meaning every tactical game in the world should always be a nightmare of micromanagement.

More complex stealth and detection systems? That sounds cool and critically would not require the player to do hours of warehouse maintenance work. Seems incredibly overboard for this particular game though.

 

[PanteraNera]

These games should become as autistic as Tarkov instead of simplifing stuff.

As you mentioned Tarkov, actually I think that is the best successor to Jagged Alliances inventory management.
To bad it is a MMO extraction shooter.

 

[raeven]

These games should become as autistic as Tarkov instead of simplifing stuff.

As you mentioned Tarkov, actually I think that is the best successor to Jagged Alliances inventory management.
To bad it is a MMO extraction shooter.

Too bad it's unreleased.

When a game has been beta for six years, it seems unlikely that it will ever be released.

 

[Zombra]

Give me JA1 and DG where everything you bring home just goes into one list, and every merc can get whatever they want from the warehouse at the beginning of the day.

I'm fine with this, it's an acceptable compromise. But abstracting away ammo is one more thing that whittles away at the potential for interesting and unexpected situations to arise on the battlefield. I've often found myself in situations in previous games where a character has run out of ammo. What now? Does he run over to a squadmate and borrow some ammo from him? But now that guy is low on ammo! Does he risk running over to a downed soldier and scavenging his corpse? But oh no, that's the wrong ammo! Better take his crappy gun too, then. Now my guy is a worse shot. He might have to get closer to the enemy before pulling the trigger, or he might be forced to use one of the precious grenades brought along for emergencies. If my frustration at this type of news seems disproportionate it's because there's a war on against this sort of stuff, and every decision made in the name of streamlining chips away at it. A little bit here, a little bit there, and soon you've got nuXCOM banality. It's decline, plain and simple.

And believe it or not I agree here too. Removing ALL the drama from ammo management is a shame and I feel like Hamameiemamont went a bit too far here by having ammo exist in "Hammerspace" where everyone can access it. If ammo is going to be part of the game economy then it shouldn't be that magical. Otherwise, it should simply be removed from the economy altogether like in XCOM, where it made perfect sense that everyone was assumed to carry 5+ clips to every conflict because why wouldn't they? It wasn't a post apocalypse world there, so it was fine to assume that XCOM's high tech flying fortress simply had facilities for producing ample stock. But JA3 I guess is supposed to have scarcity so yeah they overcorrected.

I think the right balance to strike comes from Wasteland 2 where no matter which PC picked up a given type of ammo out of combat, they would automatically hand it to a person who had that type of gun instead of making me drag it back and forth. Then I could fine tune the exact proportions to taste if more than one character needed that type of ammo. Of course the W2 solution doesn't take multiple squads or sectors into account.

 

[Alienman]

Another thing with ammo is that you have to make sacrifices that will now be missing. The heavy mg guy with millions of rounds vs. the more rounded merc that carries more stuff beyond ammo. Where are those choices when ammo will no longer be an issue (as I understand it)? Why not make every merc carry a saw, or have the heavy guy carry all kinds of extra stuff?

I get it if you are making a game with boardgame style of rules, something more abstract, but this - when you constantly say you want it as true to source as possible? Man, I don't know. Long since I have been so confused by a game.

 

[udm]

The front man running out of hollow point ammo (and, uh, just ammo in general) while fighting bloodcats or crepitus is one of the most intense experiences ever.

 

[Zombra]

Where are those choices when ammo will no longer be an issue (as I understand it)?

There must be scarcity of some kind. Otherwise there's no reason for this system at all; they would have just made it infinite ammo like XCOM.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Give me JA1 and DG where everything you bring home just goes into one list, and every merc can get whatever they want from the warehouse at the beginning of the day.

I'm fine with this, it's an acceptable compromise. But abstracting away ammo is one more thing that whittles away at the potential for interesting and unexpected situations to arise on the battlefield. I've often found myself in situations in previous games where a character has run out of ammo. What now? Does he run over to a squadmate and borrow some ammo from him? But now that guy is low on ammo! Does he risk running over to a downed soldier and scavenging his corpse? But oh no, that's the wrong ammo! Better take his crappy gun too, then. Now my guy is a worse shot. He might have to get closer to the enemy before pulling the trigger, or he might be forced to use one of the precious grenades brought along for emergencies. If my frustration at this type of news seems disproportionate it's because there's a war on against this sort of stuff, and every decision made in the name of streamlining chips away at it. A little bit here, a little bit there, and soon you've got nuXCOM banality. It's decline, plain and simple.

And believe it or not I agree here too. Removing ALL the drama from ammo management is a shame and I feel like Hamameiemamont went a bit too far here by having ammo exist in "Hammerspace" where everyone can access it. If ammo is going to be part of the game economy then it shouldn't be that magical. Otherwise, it should simply be removed from the economy altogether like in XCOM, where it made perfect sense that everyone was assumed to carry 5+ clips to every conflict because why wouldn't they? It wasn't a post apocalypse world there, so it was fine to assume that XCOM's high tech flying fortress simply had facilities for producing ample stock. But JA3 I guess is supposed to have scarcity so yeah they overcorrected.

I think the right balance to strike comes from Wasteland 2 where no matter which PC picked up a given type of ammo out of combat, they would automatically hand it to a person who had that type of gun instead of making me drag it back and forth. Then I could fine tune the exact proportions to taste if more than one character needed that type of ammo. Of course the W2 solution doesn't take multiple squads or sectors into account.

I sincerely hope that your afterlife is spent managing inventory in 7,62 High Calibre.
Cheers.

 

[Stavrophore]

I love MOLLE autism of 1.13, which was further expanded with mods for 1.13. Who doesn't like to tacticooly equip their mercs fit for purpose? Like grenadier having grenadier pouches, LMG guy having drum/box mag pouches, mortar team having big backpacks for all the shells. Idk i just like that, its another bit of immersion for me.

 

[bobocrunch]

Inventory autism is one of the best parts of the genre, 7.62 set the standard for loadouts that would make African guerillas weep and I'm sad JA3 seems to be moving in the opposite direction

 

[Stavrophore]

Inventory autism is one of the best parts of the genre, 7.62 set the standard for loadouts that would make African guerillas weep and I'm sad JA3 seems to be moving in the opposite direction

This is pleasant autism for me.

Medic with custom fitted vest having three double stacked AR mag holders, two grenade pouch for defensive contact grenades, two smoke grenades for covering when healing, gas mask on carabiner, a canteen pouch, a first aid kit pouch, and standard light TT 3 day pack with sleepsack and medkit. This is a rookie with low strength hence the weight penalty, i can use a lighter protection than spectra armor to decrease the weight, but survivability is worth a longer travel time, and it also train strength. Every team needs a mule anyway, that will carry spare stuff, the usual 70 strength mercs/imps are really poor with weight - i think 1.13 gives too much penalties for weight, this merc doesn't even have SAPI plates inside the vest.

 

[thesheeep]

Loadout assignment and managing space and weight with that is great.
Manually dragging tiny inventory ammo pixels around again and again and again and again is menial bullshit. If you need that kind of stuff, have a deep look inwards and analyze wtf is wrong with you.

Or go play Cataclysm:DDA which simulates every volume in every clip in every pocket of every piece of clothing you are wearing. That's what I did until I discovered the joy of Cataclysm: Bright Nights...

Seems like JA3 removes the menial bullshit while still having a need to think about reasonable loadouts and you can't just ignore ammo entirely.
A bit of a bummer about removing the weight and not having a representation of how much space to use for ammo on a given merc, but I guess strength providing additional inventory space somewhat balances that.

How is the "ammo pool" calculated, though? Does every merc provide some space to it?

 

[Beowulf]

JA3 seems to already provide more options for attachments than vanilla JA2. The modular approach to equipment, especially tactical harnesses, backpacks and other item containers introduced in 1.13 was a great feature for existing players, but can overwhelm new players, and that's one of the reasons why vanilla JA2 is recommended for first time players.
Sure, the added customization options is nice for all of us, who like a less abstract approach to battlefield tactics.

Anyway, shared ammo pool is pure decline, mercs should carry their own loads and guns should have their individual ammo pool. It is a strange design decision.
A more abstract and user friendly solution would be welcome in some general inventory management, like post battle looting and moving items to a car trunk, selling in bulk from all team members and so on.

 

[Zombra]

It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.

In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that

I thought about this a little more, and Jagged Alliance is just as much about walking from place to place as it is about shooting people. In fact it is MORE about walking around then it is about shooting people. Therefore if simulation is more important than good gameplay, shoe management should be a much bigger deal than ammo management.