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Jagged Alliance 3 from Haemimont Games

Ghulgothas

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Dev Diary 12 - Combat, Part 2
Hello and welcome to our second DevDiary dedicated to combat. In case you have missed it, here is Combat Part 1. I am Boian Spasov, Lead Designer, and I will tell you about some of the remaining combat mechanics. As usual, we will follow-up with a DevStream this Thursday where we will discuss all these combat elements, and more!

Combat Start

Although combat in Jagged Alliance 3 is turn-based, the game flows in real time outside of combat. Internally we call this “exploration mode”, since it is most often used when exploring maps either before or after combat encounters. While you are in exploration mode, combat might start for several reasons – the enemies might notice you or one of your allies; they might hear a suspicious sound like a gunshot, explosion or a cry of pain; they might also see something alarming, like a fire starting nearby. All of these lead to a transition to the turn-based “combat mode”.

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Playing first grants a significant advantage in turn-based tactical games and it can often be critical for the battle that follows. Some games decide this balance issue by intermixing the turns of individual units from both teams but this limits the tactics you can use and more importantly, doesn’t feel true to the legacy of Jagged Alliance.

In Jagged Alliance 3 in made sense to grant the first turn to the player team – mercs usually have the initiative in engagements anyway and it never feels good to lose a merc character before you have chance to act at least once in the battle. However, this granted a bit too much advantage to the player – some combat encounters may become too easy when you are able to focus-fire on critical enemy units before they act or take the most advantageous positions before them.

To mitigate this advantage, enemies receive a short reposition phase when they become alert (unless they are Surprised – but I’ll get to that later). During the reposition phase they are allowed to move a short distance, or very rarely execute a single attack instead of moving. Note that these reposition actions are constrained by a much smaller AP limit that the enemy max AP and in no way equally powerful to an entire combat turn.

DevDiary12_02.thumb.jpg.80cbc5af359b828b31ca5b24703eb582.jpg


Stealth

While Stealth is present in Jagged Alliance 3, we didn’t want it to be dominant, turning every encounter into a stealth puzzle - there are other games that specialize in this and Jagged Alliance is not meant to provide that kind of experience. A stealth approach might make the encounter easier, more advantageous for your side or just different… Or sometimes it may go wrong, you may be discovered earlier than intended and that will complicate the encounter instead.

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Enemies are less alert while not in combat and you may take advantage of this by carefully setting up the terms of the engagement. For example, any merc that is out of enemy sight can start to sneak, and will become harder to detect by the enemy. The range and speed of stealth detection depend on various factors – the sneaking character stats and the enemy stats, as well as darkness, foliage and line of sight. It always takes some time for the enemies to detect a sneaking merc, visualized by the in-view UI bar under that character. If the sneaking character executes an attack before being discovered, there is a chance that the attack will result in a Stealth Kill, slaying a single enemy outright. The attack may also Surprise the others, delaying their reposition phase.

Melee attacks from stealth can also be prepared in advance when you are safely out of sight – this provides you extra preparation time to select body part and aim level without the danger of being discovered at this time. The prepared attack will be executed automatically if you manage to sneak in melee range without being discovered. Approaching the target from behind will usually improve your chances to get in melee attack range, but often this is also difficult to pull off, especially when there are multiple enemies involved.

Stealth tactics might be useful mid-combat as well – though in order to start sneaking, you have to be out of enemy sight. Besides, it is much harder to nail a stealth kill against alert enemies, even if they don’t see you.

DevDiary12_04.thumb.jpg.a089400b8055d37084ad6dd396f92c90.jpg


Interrupts and Overwatch

“Interrupts” is an all-encompassing term that we use for any attacks that happen during the opposing team’s turn. Both the mercs and the enemy units utilize the same types of interrupt attacks, but our design goals differ a bit regarding each side. The mercs’ interrupts are meant to give you more options in combat, to facilitate the feeling of “executing a plan” or “setting up a trap”, then watching it come into fruition or fail spectacularly. The same skills serve a different design purpose when being employed by the enemies – in this case they are meant to increase the variety in combat situations and AI tactics and to force you to find creative ways to counter them.

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The most common type of interrupt action is called Overwatch. The term might make you immediately think about XCom – however our Overwatch skill is more inspired by other tactical titles like Gears Tactics. Instead of being an automated attack against any enemy in attack range, it directs the mercs’ attention in a cone-shaped area of the battlefield and lets them interrupt only enemies that move or make other actions in this area. This gives you a finer control over the action and a bigger decision space, allowing you for example to Overwatch different areas with your mercs, or shorten the attack distance in order to make the attacks more reliable.

The maximum number of Overwatch attacks is limited by the number of remaining Action Points when you set up the Overwatch action. Overwatch attacks can never be aimed or target a specific body part, but they get a passive accuracy bonus from your Dexterity stat. You also lose some defensive benefits while in this stance, so all-in-all it is a tradeoff compared to the regular attacks.

Personally, I tend to prefer Overwatch when the enemies are in good defensive positions during my turn, or when I want to limit their movement or make it disadvantageous in a particular area of the map.

When used before combat encounters, Overwatch works a bit differently. It allows you to set up ambushes that will trigger on enemy reposition when combat starts.

DevDiary12_06.thumb.jpg.3f0a95fa44750c3bced03ebb667cf9d2.jpg



There are some other interrupt attacks in the game as well – some tied to perks, and other to particular weapons. For example, machine guns can be set to suppress a particular area of the battlefield, granting you a limited number of Interrupt attacks against enemies in this area, even after you’ve spent all of your Action Points. Some melee-inclined enemies and mercs with threaten the immediate area around them with melee interrupts, making them a particular nuisance when they manage to get close by.

Weather and Darkness

Environmental effects, such as weather and darkness, make the world more visually varied, believable and alive, but another important design goal behind their existence is to make the combat situations more varied. A combat encounter with the same enemies will feel very different when fought at night or in a thunderstorm, and these environmental effects will often force you to adapt and invent new strategies. Here is a list of all environmental effects in Jagged Alliance 3:

  • Clear weather – no additional gameplay effects.
  • Night/Underground - Enemies in darkness are harder to notice. Ranged attacks against them suffer a low visibility accuracy penalty, except at point blank range.
  • Dust Storm - Movement costs are increased. Cover is more effective. Enemies become Concealed at certain distance. Ranged attacks against concealed foes may become grazing hits.
  • Fire Storm - Visual range is reduced. Characters may lose Energy when standing close to a fire in combat, losing Action points and eventually collapsing unconscious.
  • Fog - Visual range is reduced and enemies become concealed at certain distance.
  • Heat - When receiving Wounds, characters may lose Energy, losing Action Points and eventually collapsing, as with Firestorm.
  • Heavy Rain - Aiming costs are increased. Hearing is impaired. Weapons lose condition and jam more often. Throwable items tend to mishap.
  • Rain - Hearing is impaired. Weapons lose condition and jam more often.
Weather effects are independent from the day/night cycle. Sectors in one area of the global map share the same weather patterns and the weather is different in the wet and dry areas of the world.

Underground areas don’t have weather effects, but they are always considered “dark” and share the gameplay effects with the nighttime encounters. Let’s take a closer look at these conditions.


DevDiary12_07.thumb.jpg.ebc128efe7fdac934d8338fe741dac4e.jpg

In the screenshot above, you will notice there are black and white dots next to the character nameplates. Characters in the dark areas (the ones with the black dots) benefit from the darkness and are harder to hit, while characters with the white dots are “in the light” and receive no such bonuses. A stealth approach benefits from darkness as well, but watch out for moving spotlights that will reveal you!

Obviously, this will change your positioning strategies and encourage you to stay in dark areas, but you can also make use of this mechanic to tilt the odds even further in your favor. Shooting a flare or throwing a glowstick creates “lit” area in the battlefield – but don’t forget that the enemies will use these against you as well. A flashlight weapon attachment will reveal the enemy you are attacking, but it may negate your darkness defensive benefit as well. If you equip night vision goggles, you may gain the upper hand at night, but is it worth it to give up the opportunity to protect your merc with a heavy helmet? How about creating an entire squad of characters specialized and outfitted for night ops and timing your assaults with the day/night cycle?

Of course, you don’t have to do any of this, but even so, your nighttime encounters will feel and look significantly different than normal fights in bright daylight. Combined with the other weather effects, the variety of possibly combat conditions is huge. It will surely keep you on your toes during your war in Grand Chien!

DevDiary12_08.thumb.jpg.4aed7ac93e0890fff9e1226ce5392d78.jpg
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
enemies receive a short reposition phase when they become alert (unless they are Surprised – but I’ll get to that later). During the reposition phase they are allowed to move a short distance, or very rarely execute a single attack instead of moving. Note that these reposition actions are constrained by a much smaller AP limit that the enemy max AP and in no way equally powerful to an entire combat turn.
If the sneaking character executes an attack before being discovered, there is a chance that the attack will result in a Stealth Kill, slaying a single enemy outright.

iu


This reminds me, have they said anything about morale and stamina?
 

Harthwain

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But for some reason you want an ammo icon dragging minigame, because sure, that's something the merc can't be trusted with...
It's more about equipment distribution. With ammo not being an issue you don't have to worry about how much ammo you spend (read: how efficient you are with it), because you always have more in the "bank". With ammo being limited (perhaps even severly so) you have to think more about how well it's spent and consider using another weapon in case you run out.
 

Aemar

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Listened to dev stream today. Sounds like all ammo will be in a shared pool, even during combat, not in each individuals inventory. So that's a bummer.

There also will not be weight factored in, however the size of a mercs inventory grid is determined by their strength stat.
Inventory autism is one of the best parts of the genre, 7.62 set the standard for loadouts that would make African guerillas weep and I'm sad JA3 seems to be moving in the opposite direction
Inventory autism is what makes these games the best in their genre, a franchise still unsurpassed since the 90s. Shared ammo pool? Haemimont can go fuck themselves with this travesty of a game. Not a Jagged Alliance game, even if the title says so. Does it sound familiar?
 

thesheeep

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But for some reason you want an ammo icon dragging minigame, because sure, that's something the merc can't be trusted with...
It's more about equipment distribution. With ammo not being an issue you don't have to worry about how much ammo you spend (read: how efficient you are with it), because you always have more in the "bank". With ammo being limited (perhaps even severly so) you have to think more about how well it's spent and consider using another weapon in case you run out.
Oh sure, but I'm assuming the ammo pool that will be in the game is restricted and you have to conserve ammo anyway (if it's restricted in each separate inventory or in a pool is honestly not that much of a difference).

If it isn't restricted, then yeah... that's dumb.
 

ArchAngel

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Listened to dev stream today. Sounds like all ammo will be in a shared pool, even during combat, not in each individuals inventory. So that's a bummer.

There also will not be weight factored in, however the size of a mercs inventory grid is determined by their strength stat.
Inventory autism is one of the best parts of the genre, 7.62 set the standard for loadouts that would make African guerillas weep and I'm sad JA3 seems to be moving in the opposite direction
Inventory autism is what makes these games the best in their genre, a franchise still unsurpassed since the 90s. Shared ammo pool? Haemimont can go fuck themselves with this travesty of a game. Not a Jagged Alliance game, even if the title says so. Does it sound familiar?
They went soft and made bad choices in many ways and once we get our hands on it I am sure we will find even more bad design choices
 

thesheeep

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Nothing about micromanaging ammo is difficult or casual/non-casual.
It's menial. It is so easy to do that it is impossible to fail unless you are entirely braindead. It wastes everyone's time.
This is just not true. Scarcity and scavenging is a big part of Jagged Alliance, at least in the early game. I refer you to my earlier post:
I've often found myself in situations in previous games where a character has run out of ammo. What now? Does he run over to a squadmate and borrow some ammo from him? But now that guy is low on ammo! Does he risk running over to a downed soldier and scavenging his corpse? But oh no, that's the wrong ammo! Better take his crappy gun too, then. Now my guy is a worse shot. He might have to get closer to the enemy before pulling the trigger, or he might be forced to use one of the precious grenades brought along for emergencies.
Can you not relate to this? Then I question whether you've even played the games.
You still get scarcity with an ammo pool - if it is implemented right and not just some unlimited bank not related to what your squad could believably carry with them.
You can still get low on your ammo type and have to think about taking a risky maneuver or not and everything that follows from that.
It's the number of bullets that creates the scarcity, not the number of specific inventory magazine items.

As I wrote above, it depends very strongly on how it is implemented.

Would individual ammo pools per merc be better than a shared one? Sure.
If I made the game, I'd go for single merc ammo pools. You get a slider with how much inventory space you want to reserve for which type of ammo and that's all you need to fiddle with.
With the shared one, you will not have those situations where soldiers are trading magazines. That's one situation among an insanely high number of tense situations.
Good trade, I'll gladly take a shared one if I get spared the hassle of fiddling and dragging individual magazines around in and out of combat.
 

Zombra

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enemies receive a short reposition phase when they become alert (unless they are Surprised – but I’ll get to that later). During the reposition phase they are allowed to move a short distance, or very rarely execute a single attack instead of moving. Note that these reposition actions are constrained by a much smaller AP limit that the enemy max AP and in no way equally powerful to an entire combat turn.
Nope. Don't like that.
After reading it, it sounds good. It preserves the Jagged Alliance "my turn, then enemy turn". It allows you to still get surprise attacks and eliminate the enemy's chance to pull up their pants. It doesn't do the XCOM stupidity of allowing the enemy to run halfway across the map. But it eliminates the unrealistic (one might even venture "poorly simulated") aspect of combat where at the start of every encounter, one team has to stand their with thumbs up their asses while the entire opposition all make their moves. If you just walk towards them relying on PC Armor to let you go first, it's unrealistic you wouldn't see each other and both sides be somewhat prepared.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
If you just walk towards them relying on PC Armor to let you go first, it's unrealistic you wouldn't see each other and both sides be somewhat prepared.
Try that in the previous games. You'll find that the enemies will make their moves if they spot you before you start shooting at them. If, however, you get to start combat on your terms (which can't happen unless you've spotted them but they haven't spotted you, which realistically should give you a big advantage) there won't be an omnipotent referee going "Hold on there fellas, this just isn't fair. Everyone gets to take five minutes to prepare themselves now." That's just stupid. The situation where every member of your group takes their turn shooting the unaware enemies is an abstraction of them all shooting at the same time, exploiting the element of surprise.

But it eliminates the unrealistic (one might even venture "poorly simulated") aspect of combat where at the start of every encounter, one team has to stand their with thumbs up their asses while the entire opposition all make their moves.
What you've just described is turn-based combat, and the issue you highlight is one this series used to solve with interrupts and now solves (less well) with overwatch.
 

raeven

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But it eliminates the unrealistic (one might even venture "poorly simulated") aspect of combat where at the start of every encounter, one team has to stand their with thumbs up their asses while the entire opposition all make their moves.
What you've just described is turn-based combat, and the issue you highlight is one this series used to solve with interrupts and now solves (less well) with overwatch.

At least overwatch effectiveness varies depending on how much AP you've got left. It's not the same as arbitary AP to spend as you please during interrupt, but it's better than just having a single shot and gives you more depth of choice in terms of how you spend your turn.
 

bobocrunch

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The inventory autism leads to both more interesting and varied gameplay and directly leads to character progression. To use an example from 7.62, finding tape and getting 2 high capacity magazines put together makes you an elite among the emaciated peasants you're shooting 100 rounds at without stopping, and the idea of setting a slider for the ammo carried onto a mission would instantly turn me off because it's abstracting one of the most important parts of tactical games, resource management and not being a retard with a dumb loadout for a fight. It turns it into making sure you bring enough ammo, which I doubt'll ever be an issue when modern games are designed to make sure you don't have problems like that.
 

mondblut

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And it seems it wasn't for the JA3 devs, either.

Who would have doubted. Romances coming next.

For me it was all about the heavily stat-driven squad-based combat (with varying squad sizes and very varied "missions")

FyrF2WiWIAMJcZl.jpg


It's about gun and tacticool porn. Inventory micromanagement and figuring out which chest rig model out of 50 fits best for a given role and loadout is actually the most important part of the game. Combat itself is just an excuse to test your pimped out gun and a 1000$ tactical beard in action. Making a Jagged Alliance game for people who don't care about this crap is like making a Forza game for people who don't care about pimped out cars and just want to get from point A to point B.

Which, I guess, is not far, since everything has to be brought down to the lowest common denominator.
 

Abu Antar

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Ammo management is a core element of the JA series, imo. I played both JA1 and JA2 vanilla recently. You had to be sure to look up who still had ammo or not. Especially on higher difficulties. Mercs had to share with each other, or pick up other weapons if their ammo was all used.
 

Shaki

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I used to like inventory autism, but after recently spending another 100+ hours playing JA2 1.13, I'm starting to get nauseous when thinking about dealing with it again.

JA2 vanilla I think was perfect, it has enough autism to make it interesting and realistic, but not so much to make it tedious and annoying - but holy fuck, 1.13 really went overboard with this shit.
 

Abu Antar

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I used to like inventory autism, but after recently spending another 100+ hours playing JA2 1.13, I'm starting to get nauseous when thinking about dealing with it again.

JA2 vanilla I think was perfect, it has enough autism to make it interesting and realistic, but not so much to make it tedious and annoying - but holy fuck, 1.13 really went overboard with this shit.
Part of why I played vanilla, despite adoration for 1.13. Vanilla is perfectly fine for me.
 

mondblut

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I used to like inventory autism, but after recently spending another 100+ hours playing JA2 1.13, I'm starting to get nauseous when thinking about dealing with it again.

JA2 vanilla I think was perfect, it has enough autism to make it interesting and realistic, but not so much to make it tedious and annoying - but holy fuck, 1.13 really went overboard with this shit.

Cataclysm DDA: "Hold my beer".
 

Zombra

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If you just walk towards them relying on PC Armor to let you go first, it's unrealistic you wouldn't see each other and both sides be somewhat prepared.
Try that in the previous games. You'll find that the enemies will make their moves if they spot you before you start shooting at them. If, however, you get to start combat on your terms (which can't happen unless you've spotted them but they haven't spotted you, which realistically should give you a big advantage) there won't be an omnipotent referee going "Hold on there fellas, this just isn't fair. Everyone gets to take five minutes to prepare themselves now." That's just stupid. The situation where every member of your group takes their turn shooting the unaware enemies is an abstraction of them all shooting at the same time, exploiting the element of surprise.
The devs here addressed all this.

First, they made the decision that the player generally should get the first turn, which I support for a few reasons. In particular, real-time exploration is a bitch when you're controlling multiple characters, and often enemies will find a straggler simply because you're scrambling to switch between them all and one who should have been moving was caught flat-footed. So then the enemy all gets a "free" turn when you didn't mean to start combat and combat shouldn't really have started. Not realistic, not good gameplay. At the same time full turn-based exploration would be horrible. So I support this decision.

Second, don't exaggerate about giving the enemies a huge free turn. The diary was very clear that the free move is just a few AP, enough to move a few steps or maybe get off a single shot. That is hugely important and again mitigates the weird feeling of one team executing elaborate time-consuming actions with the other team just standing there. Old JA interrupts were good for sure but again they were either 30AP or 0AP, extremely "all or nothing". It's not like they forgot to do interrupts here, they actually thought out a system that made more sense.

Third, the surprise round as an abstraction in the past was fine ... but here they un-abstracted it by putting in actual surprise mechanics into the game. Surprise wasn't thrown away, it's been redesigned here more intentionally.

I grant you it's different than before and it's not my place to tell you to like the changes, but there's no real case that these mechanics are worse.
 

raeven

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It's about gun and tacticool porn. Inventory micromanagement and figuring out which chest rig model out of 50 fits best for a given role and loadout is actually the most important part of the game. Combat itself is just an excuse to test your pimped out gun and a 1000$ tactical beard in action.

That's what's most important.... to YOU.

Not everyone likes the same things. Some of us even prefer (*gasp*) Vanilla.

Anyway I largely agree that something closer to JA2 vanilla would be my preference, but to be honest - this doesn't seem like that huge of a deal either way, to me.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
First, they made the decision that the player generally should get the first turn, which I support for a few reasons. In particular, real-time exploration is a bitch when you're controlling multiple characters, and often enemies will find a straggler simply because you're scrambling to switch between them all and one who should have been moving was caught flat-footed. So then the enemy all gets a "free" turn when you didn't mean to start combat and combat shouldn't really have started. Not realistic, not good gameplay. At the same time full turn-based exploration would be horrible. So I support this decision.
It shouldn't be up to them who gets the first turn. The side that surprises the other should get the first turn. It's natural, it makes intuitive sense, and it's fun. You plan ambushes while covering your ass. It worked great in the previous games, and they shouldn't have messed with it. I'll concede your point about managing a squad in real time sometimes being annoying. That's the number one thing that didn't work about it. But there's a perfect solution, which is to introduce pausing outside of combat, and they should have done that instead.
Second, don't exaggerate about giving the enemies a huge free turn. The diary was very clear that the free move is just a few AP, enough to move a few steps or maybe get off a single shot. That is hugely important and again mitigates the weird feeling of one team executing elaborate time-consuming actions with the other team just standing there. Old JA interrupts were good for sure but again they were either 30AP or 0AP, extremely "all or nothing". It's not like they forgot to do interrupts here, they actually thought out a system that made more sense.
I don't experience this weird feeling of yours at all. Combat is done in turns where one side spends its AP and then the other spends its AP. That's how it worked before, and that's how it works now except for the first turn, which needs some little pseudo-turn jammed into it for some reason. It's inconsistent, and it makes it so that you and the enemy aren't playing by the same rules. That should be avoided as much as possible.
Third, the surprise round as an abstraction in the past was fine ... but here they un-abstracted it by putting in actual surprise mechanics into the game. Surprise wasn't thrown away, it's been redesigned here more intentionally.
It sure has. It's been redesigned into a neatly packaged easily-balanced frustration-minimising box. Surprise shouldn't be Surprise with a captial S, it should arise naturally from the interplay of systems.

I felt the Codex was vibing with the game but now everyone hates it?
Nah I'm still somewhat excited. Just tempering my expectations.
 

Zombra

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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It makes it so that you and the enemy aren't playing by the same rules. That should be avoided as much as possible.
I acknowledge this point of view but don't subscribe to it. Good challenge, good gameplay, respecting the player's time, a million other things are more important than "the realism" or whatever. But I'm already well documented as not really caring about the perfect simulation so yeah we're gonna disagree here. Actually you're not even advocating realism but PvP boardgame fairness, which .... I absolutely do not care about good PvP in a PvE game. Again I see why you want that but it's meaningless to me.
 

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