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Jagged Alliance 3 from Haemimont Games

Zombra

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It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.
In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that
I thought about this a little more, and Jagged Alliance is just as much about walking from place to place as it is about shooting people. In fact it is MORE about walking around then it is about shooting people. Therefore if simulation is more important than good gameplay, shoe management should be a much bigger deal than ammo management.
 

Alienman

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Shoes is a bit much, but sickness, heat and cold should be a thing. Maybe it is already, I don't know.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Jagged Alliance is just as much about walking from place to place as it is about shooting people.
If it were about walking the travel aspect would not be so greatly abstracted in comparison to the combat and ammo management.
Loadout matters in a tactical engagement. The getting to the engagement part can be abstracted out without affecting the tactical engagement and the associated resource management.
Manually dragging tiny inventory ammo pixels around again and again and again and again is menial bullshit.
Yeah, no argument there.
 

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Don't recall Meltdown being so insufferable in JA2. Was she always that cringy? Last time i hired her was decades ago and in russian version and she didn't sound like a retarded tryhard.

Meltdown was modeled after Misery from the Stephen King movie.

She was also one of the female characters that worked for me. I always had her in my team. She was low cost, an ambidextrous shooter that could hit many low damages hits. And she got along with some of my other favorite mercs.
 

Burning Bridges

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New trailer.


When JA2 was made people in their late 20s looked 10 years older than today. That's why they end up with this kindergarten of mercs.

Also if you want to remake games about the 1990s don't hire people who were not even born in the 1990s. Or you will inevitable get some kind of freakshow.

At the end of the day it may eventually sell well because there are not that many people left who played JA2 or even JA1, and the formula is timeless. If it is so hard that you fail your first playthroughs. If it's easy too then I don't even get the point of making it. Jagged Alliance was always about failing miserably and later beating a game that required training, like chess.
 

Zombra

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If it were about walking the travel aspect would not be so greatly abstracted in comparison to the combat and ammo management.
So you're saying that the part that is micromanaged is the part that is micromanaged and therefore it's good that that part has a lot of micromanagement?
 

ArchAngel

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It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.
In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that
I thought about this a little more, and Jagged Alliance is just as much about walking from place to place as it is about shooting people. In fact it is MORE about walking around then it is about shooting people. Therefore if simulation is more important than good gameplay, shoe management should be a much bigger deal than ammo management.
You missed the point completely.
Walking is what everyone does, if you are not walking and that should have an impact on the world (mad max world it would be about driving) then it needs its own simulation aspects.
What they do differently than everyone is have combat gear, find dangerous situations and try to kill/survive.
Gear part needs to simulated as well as getting out of tough situations or killing.
Not to mention this game does not promote itself as being a walking simulator
 

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It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.
In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that
I thought about this a little more, and Jagged Alliance is just as much about walking from place to place as it is about shooting people. In fact it is MORE about walking around then it is about shooting people. Therefore if simulation is more important than good gameplay, shoe management should be a much bigger deal than ammo management.
Shoes are all well and good but having dry socks is where excellence lies.
 

geno

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Shoes are all well and good but having dry socks is where excellence lies.
Related
McXWU9nyqoq13VeTW-822m0Wvd3mrQ5hRLBl3BvBRKKyIPap1q1bXTSOlnc21nb44mrsZvDkyIqRbTsoq2sEvy6m1Se5u0lMKBkPlileuNbfgQ3n6u2qs6uDbBcCqQI9AkliPRJQmg=s0

Source
 

Zombra

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Walking is what everyone does, if you are not walking and that should have an impact on the world (mad max world it would be about driving) then it needs its own simulation aspects.
What they do differently than everyone is have combat gear, find dangerous situations and try to kill/survive.
Got it, so games should be about the exciting part that we don't get to do in real life.

That's a valid argument.

It also tells me that your apartment is a shithole and you probably smell like ass, because you don't spend enough time in real life putting laundry into the closet, forks and spoons into the silverware drawer, or hygiene products into the medicine cabinet. There's no other explanation for "putting things away" to be a thrilling fantasy for you.
 

oasis789

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It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.
In a game about going to bed and putting on clothes it would be terrible if you didn't need to do that
I thought about this a little more, and Jagged Alliance is just as much about walking from place to place as it is about shooting people. In fact it is MORE about walking around then it is about shooting people. Therefore if simulation is more important than good gameplay, shoe management should be a much bigger deal than ammo management.
thats a great question, does this game have the sector overworld map and managing the logistics of helicoptering and trucking squads around?
 

Zombra

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thats a great question, does this game have the sector overworld map and managing the logistics of helicoptering and trucking squads around?
Yeah, the overworld map is there. Unsurprisingly simplified looking compared to JA2 but it's there. I'm sure someone less drunk than I can pull up a video reference quickly.
 

ArchAngel

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Walking is what everyone does, if you are not walking and that should have an impact on the world (mad max world it would be about driving) then it needs its own simulation aspects.
What they do differently than everyone is have combat gear, find dangerous situations and try to kill/survive.
Got it, so games should be about the exciting part that we don't get to do in real life.

That's a valid argument.

It also tells me that your apartment is a shithole and you probably smell like ass, because you don't spend enough time in real life putting laundry into the closet, forks and spoons into the silverware drawer, or hygiene products into the medicine cabinet. There's no other explanation for "putting things away" to be a thrilling fantasy for you.
Lol this went personal fast
 

ERYFKRAD

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It also tells me that your apartment is a shithole and you probably smell like ass, because you don't spend enough time in real life putting laundry into the closet, forks and spoons into the silverware drawer, or hygiene products into the medicine cabinet. There's no other explanation for "putting things away" to be a thrilling fantasy for you.
My sincere apologies. I did not realize you have difficulty moving your ass to put things in their place in your domicile.
 

mondblut

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Not gonna lie, dragging tiny icons of bullets back and forth from one tiny box into another tiny box (and then into another tiny box!) is not something I will miss. At all. It's OK for mercs to automate sharing ammo, just like it's OK that I don't have to take off their shoes every night before they go to bed and put the shoes back on and tie the shoelaces for them every morning.

Were it not for the issue of ammo capacity, we would still be fighting with WW1 era guns. Hey, they do great damage and have excellent range and accuracy, what else do you need from a weapon?

Ah, yes. Being able to carry more than 20 rounds without getting exhausted. How trite.
 

thesheeep

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Ah, yes. Being able to carry more than 20 rounds without getting exhausted. How trite.
You don't need menial bullshit tasks like dragging ammo items through inventories to simulate that.
A global or rather mission-wide pool can be a completely sufficient abstraction.

As long as that pool is not just an endless pool but actually tied to the mercs.
I would prefer if you could set yourself what percentage of your mercs' inventory you want to offer up for carrying ammo on a mission. But if it is a fixed size pool, that's still "okay".
You don't need a physical representation of every single bullet on each merc to believe that mercs are capable of managing their own ammo. Just like you don't need a physical representation of their lungs to believe they can breathe. It's a menial task, which is why it is fine to abstract it away to a degree and focus on important things instead.

If it is some unlimited size pool, then yes that would be pointless. Might as well not have any ammo then like in XCOM.

That's the thing, though, how IS that pool calculated? Does it have limits? Does anyone know? :lol:
 

mondblut

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A global or rather mission-wide pool can be a completely sufficient abstraction.

What "mission"? Providing it's Jagged Alliance and not another shit xcom clone, you don't have "missions", you move around the world and occasionally stumble into hostile sectors. If it got "missions", count me out right away, leave this shit to zombras.

You don't need a physical representation of every single bullet on each merc to believe that mercs are capable of managing their own ammo.

Akshually, you do. Having 5 mags filled with bullets and having 1 mag and 100 bullets to refill it 5 times makes a world of difference when every action point counts.

It's a menial task, which is why it is fine to abstract it away to a degree and focus on important things instead.

Like, uh... sending your grenade launcher guy half a map away and have the rest use their superhero powers to teleport spare rockets to him when he needs some more? Yeah, button awesome happens.
 

thesheeep

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What "mission"? Providing it's Jagged Alliance and not another shit xcom clone, you don't have "missions", you move around the world and occasionally stumble into hostile sectors. If it got "missions", count me out right away, leave this shit to zombras.
That makes no difference whatsoever. As soon as you leave base (however they represent that, but there is always some kind of notion of a base), the amount of ammo you can have is limited until you return.
If you call that "mission" or not is nothing but semantics.

I really don't care if there is a strong mission / base separation or if your every movement is simulated on the geography.
The combat and general management is the meat of the game, the rest is window dressing.

Akshually, you do. Having 5 mags filled with bullets and having 1 mag and 100 bullets to refill it 5 times makes a world of difference when every action point counts.
Yes, and I would trust a professional merc to do the former and not the latter. So it can be abstracted away and assumed to be done by the merc. No need to have the player drag ammo icons around for large chunks of the playtime...
You don't have to play a surgeon minigame for the doctor to patch up a merc, either, or an aiming minigame for taking shots.
But for some reason you want an ammo icon dragging minigame, because sure, that's something the merc can't be trusted with...

Like, uh... sending your grenade launcher guy half a map away and have the rest use their superhero powers to teleport spare rockets to him when he needs some more? Yeah, button awesome happens.
Use your brain for once, will you?
Just because it is a pool, you don't have to assume everything is equally distributed. It makes sense to assume that the rocket guy is the one who carries the rockets. And not everyone carries 1 rocket, 1 magazine for X, 1 magazine for Y, 8 shells, ...
 
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mondblut

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That makes no difference whatsoever. As soon as you leave base (however they represent that, but there is always some kind of notion of a base), the amount of ammo you can have is limited until you return.

JA2 had no "base". That's the point. You moved around mostly living off the land and occasionally sending someone to pick up a shipment from the airport or to offload some loot at Tony's.

That's why it was RPG :smug:

Yes, and I would trust a professional merc to do the former and not the latter. So it can be abstracted away and assumed to be done by the merc.

Mags don't appear out of thin air. Getting an additional spare clip or a larger drum magazine is a Big Deal in this kinda games, you know. But let's handwave an important part of itemization because casuals find micromanagement teh hard.

But for some reason you want an ammo icon dragging minigame, because sure, that's something the merc can't be trusted with...

I don't need a minigame. I want advanced itemization and logistical realities that made intermediate cartridge the thing. If that requires a "minigame", I can live with that. If that's too much for the casual crowd, I'll go back to better games.

You don't have to play a surgeon minigame for the doctor to patch up a merc, either, or an aiming minigame for taking shots.

Akshually, I wouldn't mind it at all if doing brain surgery on a dying man required more effort than spending two generic consumables that are scattered all over the place. I'm not talking about QTE, of course. But requiring a proper operation room facility with a full set of equipment and having to evacuate your guy there as soon as possible wouldn't be out of place at all.

Use your brain for once, will you?
Just because it is a pool, you don't have to assume everything is equally distributed. It makes sense to assume that the rocket guy is the one who carries the rockets.

Except that in reality it's the opposite, LMAO. That's the reason most heavy weapons are teams of two or more, with one carrying the weapon and another, the ammunition for it.
 
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Krivol

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But ammo management was essential in JA2 1.13 where you could choose to use some of the popular ammo (5.56, 7.62 etc) and have the possibility of refuelling it on the battle map, or have more kicking and overall better gun but with exotic ammo (like 6.8) and need to replenish via transports from the airport. And you had shortcuts to put all ammo pieces from the map into one box to avoid tedious micro (also shortcuts for reloading all guns in hands, dropping heavy backpacks etc). I've never found ammo/weapon/weapon mods management boring or too dull - after a big battle it was like opening a Christmas present - will I get a reflex sight? Or ACOG? Match ammo that would turn my short-range SMG into proper AR?
You can make clicking 2 buttons boring and you can make micromanagement of 8-people's ammo and guns exciting. It's a matter of design and JA 2 1.13 has a great design (in that manner at least).
 

ropetight

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Akshually, you do. Having 5 mags filled with bullets and having 1 mag and 100 bullets to refill it 5 times makes a world of difference when every action point counts.
Yes, and I would trust a professional merc to do the former and not the latter. So it can be abstracted away and assumed to be done by the merc. No need to have the player drag ammo icons around for large chunks of the playtime...
No, they wouldn't.

Fewer reloads are not the only consideration for the soldier when it comes to magazine size, be it professional mercenary or regular grunt.
Reliability, since bigger magazines tend to be more unreliable (since they are not powered by magic, but by springs) is one of the reasons why drum magaziines and magazines over 30 bullets are not wider used.
Weapon with bigger magazine becames heavier to wield and to aim over longer time, as it tires your arms - if you are not laying down.
If you lay down, which gives you better protection, better recoil control and better aim, bigger magazine can be obstacle for using weapon.
Ease of storage on mercs, where you have to run with bunch of big drum magazines strapped onto you is also considered, while smaller magazine can be put in the pocket.
Even simple mods like duct taping multiple magazines is usually done when you are defending, and not marching to attack.

In the end, tinkering with amunition is more connected to how far do you want to abstract personal experience of a soldier and make it more small squads strategy game similar to Close Combat.
Jagged Alliance was always about personal and precise control of the mercenaries in which squad often gets separated on the map.
So, not simulating personally divided ammo, where one of the squad members is left without ammuntion and you have to improvise on the field, is not a chore or a menial task.
It is missed chance for great emergent gameplay mechanic, that was present in previous games in the series.

EDIT: Yes, they would. :D
 
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thesheeep

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JA2 had no "base". That's the point. You moved around mostly living off the land and occasionally sending someone to pick up a shipment from the airport or to offload some loot at Tony's.
I would still consider that a "base" in gameplay terms, albeit a mobile one.
Still doesn't make a much of a difference though when it comes to pool or no pool.

Mags don't appear out of thin air. Getting an additional spare clip or a larger drum magazine is a Big Deal in this kinda games, you know. But let's handwave an important part of itemization because casuals find micromanagement teh hard.
You are completely misunderstanding why it is getting axed. Nothing about micromanaging ammo is difficult or casual/non-casual.
It's menial. It is so easy to do that it is impossible to fail unless you are entirely braindead. It wastes everyone's time.
That's what makes it a prime candidate to abstract away, not because anyone would be challenged by it :lol:

The only difficulty is ensuring there is enough ammo and not to waste it. So let me worry about making sure that there is enough ammo, the details of who gets what in which pocket is not something I want to be bothered with.

I don't need a minigame. I want advanced itemization and logistical realities that made intermediate cartridge the thing. If that requires a "minigame", I can live with that. If that's too much for the casual crowd, I'll go back to better games.
Important to you and a handful of other autists. Go and play 1.13 then, that's what it's there for.
Everyone else has moved on to realize inventory fiddling X-COM style is the least enjoyable thing about those games and an entirely challenge-free thing to do that takes an unreasonable amount of time.

Akshually, I wouldn't mind it at all if doing brain surgery on a dying man required more effort than spending two generic consumables that are scattered all over the place. I'm not talking about QTE, of course. But requiring a proper operation room facility with a full set of equipment and having to evacuate your guy there as soon as possible wouldn't be out of place at all.
No thanks. I don't need or want "Everything: The Simulation".

Except that in reality it's the opposite, LMAO. That's the reason most heavy weapons are teams of two or more, with one carrying the weapon and another, the ammunition for it.
I'll take the L on that one :lol:
Nevermind, though, I'd rather an abstraction cause a few logical "issues" than being bothered with micromanagement hell.

Honest question, though: Are really big ammo units like rockets or grenades actually part of the ammo pool?

No, they wouldn't.

Fewer reloads are not the only consideration for the soldier when it comes to magazine size, be it professional mercenary or regular grunt.
Reliability, since bigger magazines tend to be more unreliable (since they are not powered by magic, but by springs) is one of the reasons why drum magaziines and magazines over 30 bullets are not wider used.
Weapon with bigger magazine becames heavier to wield and to aim over longer time, as it tires your arms - if you are not laying down.
If you lay down, which gives you better protection, better recoil control and better aim, bigger magazine can be obstacle for using weapon.
Ease of storage on mercs, where you have to run with bunch of big drum magazines strapped onto you is also considered, while smaller magazine can be put in the pocket.
Even simple mods like duct taping multiple magazines is usually done when you are defending, and not marching to attack.
You are actually agreeing with me here (except for the first sentence).
Not sure if I'm getting you wrong or you got me the wrong way around.

In the end, tinkering with amunition is more connected how far do you want to abstract personal experience of a soldier and make it more small squads strategy game similar to Close Combat.
Jagged Alliance was always about personal and precise control of the mercenaries in which squad often gets separated on map.
I would strongly disagree that that's what JA was always about.
It definitely wasn't for me.
And it seems it wasn't for the JA3 devs, either.
For me it was all about the heavily stat-driven squad-based combat (with varying squad sizes and very varied "missions") - and the humor that somehow found its way into the mercs.
The rest I could bare... until I got older and time got more precious. So I'm more than happy JA3 will (hopefully) provide the parts I liked while streamlining the ones I didn't.
 
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zapotec

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Come on there wasn't any micro-management in vanilla JA2:
All the item in ground were easibly takeable by clicking on the item labe while pressing the highlight button.
All the them in a sector were accessible in the strategic map, items were automatically ordered by type.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Nothing about micromanaging ammo is difficult or casual/non-casual.
It's menial. It is so easy to do that it is impossible to fail unless you are entirely braindead. It wastes everyone's time.
This is just not true. Scarcity and scavenging is a big part of Jagged Alliance, at least in the early game. I refer you to my earlier post:
I've often found myself in situations in previous games where a character has run out of ammo. What now? Does he run over to a squadmate and borrow some ammo from him? But now that guy is low on ammo! Does he risk running over to a downed soldier and scavenging his corpse? But oh no, that's the wrong ammo! Better take his crappy gun too, then. Now my guy is a worse shot. He might have to get closer to the enemy before pulling the trigger, or he might be forced to use one of the precious grenades brought along for emergencies.
Can you not relate to this? Then I question whether you've even played the games.
 

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