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Jagged Alliance 3 from Haemimont Games

Papill0n

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Dec 11, 2021
Messages
100
The small engagement ranges have bothered me from the get go. There's always a chance that they appear worse in presentation than they are in (later) gameplay (because 3d looks nicer at the optimal zoom-in range for their model design), but I don't have much reason to be hopeful on that topic.

Glad to see some basic COOP and Modding support. I loved coop in 1.13 multiplayer (or FFF-multiplayer to be more precise) for a quick skirmish.
 

Stavrophore

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I've noticed that people who are fine with these "abstraction shortcuts" are liberal codexers. Hmmm.
We didn't have a decent xcom clone for a long time, so maybe on this front they will be competent, because this doesn't look like JA mechanics at all. Xenonauts is more jagged alliance mechanically than this. Hopefully it sells well enough to give them opportunity to redo some mechanics in the future.
 

raeven

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Aug 29, 2020
Messages
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I've noticed that people who are fine with these "abstraction shortcuts" are liberal codexers. Hmmm.
We didn't have a decent xcom clone for a long time, so maybe on this front they will be competent, because this doesn't look like JA mechanics at all. Xenonauts is more jagged alliance mechanically than this. Hopefully it sells well enough to give them opportunity to redo some mechanics in the future.
Tf are you talking about, nuXCOM doesn't even have an inventory, let alone bullet physics, enemies that aren't just isolated "pods", an offensive oriented strategic layer, mercs with unique personalities and likes/dislikes, fucking DIALOGUE TREES, choice n consequences for your actions in the game world, I could go on and on...

The tactical part might have a few more abstractions but it's not even remotely an XCOM clone.
 

ArchAngel

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I've noticed that people who are fine with these "abstraction shortcuts" are liberal codexers. Hmmm.
We didn't have a decent xcom clone for a long time, so maybe on this front they will be competent, because this doesn't look like JA mechanics at all. Xenonauts is more jagged alliance mechanically than this. Hopefully it sells well enough to give them opportunity to redo some mechanics in the future.
Ha? When did selling well make anyone do big changes?! It only means they double down. Only bombing can teach next group of devs to try to avoid their mistakes.
 

Stavrophore

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Ha? When did selling well make anyone do big changes?! It only means they double down. Only bombing can teach next group of devs to try to avoid their mistakes.

But you still need plenty of preorders and money influx to be able to overhaul the game if it bomb[look at imperator rome, only because it had a lot of preorder, the paradox team had the luxury and ability to overhaul it]. If they won't get any sales then it will flop and they will close the shop. Maybe that's actually better.

raeven
nuXCOM did have inventory, you could choose different items called utility items.
Bullet physics coupled with stupid burst modifiers, very cool bro. Is there even a free aim in this game? Burst coverage of area with machinegun?
The patrol group mechanics and discovery already look similar to the "pods"
Strategic layer? In nuXCOM you also had rudimentary strategy layer.
Mercs with personalities? How this relate to a battle mechanics? Never said that this a fucking clone to the iota of xcom, when i say xcom clone i mean a game with battle mechanics and feeling of xcom, the rest as you said, the dialog trees, choices and consequences is of no interest to me, if the core gameplay consist of xcom type low/high cover, very abstracted and binary approach to combat. Everyone has its own cutoff, when i see scale and granularity of this game its just not for me.

Anyway you can be excited for this, i don't care.
 

Elthosian

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Mar 14, 2012
Messages
1,144
During the Dev stream today they talked about engagement ranges a lot. Apparently they will be fairly sizable, but I guess we won't know for certain for another week....

Hopefully, that's one of the main things keeping me on the fence about buying this. I had enough water pistol-worthy engagement ranges for a lifetime with Wasteland 3...
 

Lord of Riva

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We will just see how it turns out, I will give it a chance as well. If it's shit/mid the next one will bomb, just how it is
 

Zoo

Educated
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
74
Ha? When did selling well make anyone do big changes?! It only means they double down. Only bombing can teach next group of devs to try to avoid their mistakes.

Mercs with personalities? How this relate to a battle mechanics? Never said that this a fucking clone to the iota of xcom, when i say xcom clone i mean a game with battle mechanics and feeling of xcom, the rest as you said, the dialog trees, choices and consequences is of no interest to me, if the core gameplay consist of xcom type low/high cover, very abstracted and binary approach to combat. Everyone has its own cutoff, when i see scale and granularity of this game its just not for me.
How personalities don't relate battle mechanics? This aspect certainly have potential. If psycho mercs have some neat bonuses (and a downside) like in JA2, it matters. Other personality treats had they role, too. Maybe not a gamechanger for everyone, but it is indeed important. And the (maybe semi-)proper action point system is a huge incline nowadays.

I don't doubt nu-Jagged Alliance will more shallow than the magnificent JA2, but this game seems much more hardcore and oldschool than nu-XCOM (or almost all of its clones). In modders we trust.
 
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Lyre Mors

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Nov 8, 2007
Messages
5,345
I don't doubt nu-Jagged Alliance will more shallow than the magnificent JA2, but this game seems much more hardcore and oldschool than nu-XCOM (or almost all of its clones). In modders we trust.

And that's where the win comes in. There's decline running rampant all through the genre, so even though this is clearly decline from JA2 (and as if there were any doubt that would be the case), it's still better than - as I said earlier in the thread - probably 90% of what we get. I love replaying the classics, but I also like playing new things too, so rather than completely ignore something that has a number of design decisions I dislike, I'd rather give it a fair shot and focus on what I think it does well.

The black hole some of the users here fall into with their thinking can be quite despairing at times.
 

agris

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I love replaying the classics, but I also like playing new things too, so rather than completely ignore something that has a number of design decisions I dislike, I'd rather give it a fair shot and focus on what I think it does well.

The black hole some of the users here fall into with their thinking can be quite despairing at times.
To be fair, if one expects steady improvement, the black hole is rational. Most aspects of human progress aren’t linear like that, but still.

What you’re demonstrating is healthy adaptation to the reality in which things that came 20-30 years later are inferior in certain merits (mechanics, challenge, intellectual rigor) while superior in commercial and aesthetic merits (debatable, usually).
 
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ArchAngel

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I don't doubt nu-Jagged Alliance will more shallow than the magnificent JA2, but this game seems much more hardcore and oldschool than nu-XCOM (or almost all of its clones). In modders we trust.

And that's where the win comes in. There's decline running rampant all through the genre, so even though this is clearly decline from JA2 (and as if there were any doubt that would be the case), it's still better than - as I said earlier in the thread - probably 90% of what we get. I love replaying the classics, but I also like playing new things too, so rather than completely ignore something that has a number of design decisions I dislike, I'd rather give it a fair shot and focus on what I think it does well.

The black hole some of the users here fall into with their thinking can be quite despairing at times.
Lets see how much of a decline it is when it releases
 

POOPERSCOOPER

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Is it just me or is there a lot of black people you fight in this game? Like on the same level of Resident Evil 5? I'm actually looking forward more to it now so I can bring justice to the criminals.
 

Thorgeim

Educated
Joined
May 11, 2018
Messages
53
If the range scale is the worst thing in the game, it will hopefully be at least half decent. Although in the last trailer, it shows range 40 for a heavy sniper and range 45 for grenade launcher and an RPG, which does seem strange.
 

m_s0

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Jun 18, 2009
Messages
1,292
We will just see how it turns out, I will give it a chance as well. If it's shit/mid the next one will bomb, just how it is
Going by that logic we've been in Jagged Alliance bomb territory for well over 20 years at this point, and most have - including the last one. This one has money behind it, though, so at least the devs will probably survive this game if doesn't work out yet again. Also probably won't be a complete bomb, because THQ Nordic has a budget to actually market the thing somewhat.

This looks like the best case scenario for a JA game (that we could realistically expect), honestly. Just remains to be seen whether the combat is actually decent (which is what it's shaping up to be like from all the marketing), and just how horrifying the narrative ends up being, because I'm getting a bad feeling(tm) about that part of the game.
 

Lord of Riva

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We will just see how it turns out, I will give it a chance as well. If it's shit/mid the next one will bomb, just how it is
Going by that logic we've been in Jagged Alliance bomb territory for well over 20 years at this point, and most have - including the last one. This one has money behind it, though, so at least the devs will probably survive this game if doesn't work out yet again. Also probably won't be a complete bomb, because THQ Nordic has a budget to actually market the thing somewhat.

This looks like the best case scenario for a JA game (that we could realistically expect), honestly. Just remains to be seen whether the combat is actually decent (which is what it's shaping up to be like from all the marketing), and just how horrifying the narrative ends up being, because I'm getting a bad feeling(tm) about that part of the game.

Frankly, I did not play any jagged alliance games after 2, they a looked utter trash compared to them, this looks very much decent.

What I was saying was that, yes, if this one is shit whatever *these devs* will do, will bomb and rightfully so.
Or in other words, it's not the financial success of a game that makes it good, it's the success of the next game.
 

m_s0

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1,292
What I was saying was that, yes, if this one is shit whatever *these devs* will do, will bomb and rightfully so.
Or in other words, it's not the financial success of a game that makes it good, it's the success of the next game.
I got you the first time around, but I disagree. Haemimont looks like it's being run well - with a catalogue this diverse and over 20 years in the business on a consistent work-for-hire basis (JA3 included) I think nothing they do now - within reason - will affect their other games. They're a small, cheap studio the delivers across genres and publishers, meaning this is a case where they'd likely need serious fuckup after fuckup after fuckup to hurt their sales as they probably have a bunch of future projects lined up and externally funded.

Right now they just released their survival game and that seems to be generating positive buzz, and doing well, and with JA3 done and 60 people on staff I'm guessing there's another Tropico in the works by now. Tropico itself is basically a brand and the same publisher as JA3, by the way, so that's looking like a healthy relationship that'd take time or failure far more spectacular than a JA-sized project could ever be at this point to dismantle.

And there's always the excuse that the Jagged Alliance franchise has been strip mined and devalued to the point where nothing they could've done would've mattered, but hey, the still gave it a shot. And that might even be true to a degree.

Nah, I think they'll be fine either way.
 

Lord of Riva

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Paywalled german pre-review

https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/jagged-alliance-3-test-steam-review,3397179.html

Looks like they're rating it very positively :)

Yeah, better ignore gamestar or any german reviewers for that matter. Maybe there are some decent german streamers out there but german reviews may not be as political (possibly, haven't checked for years) but they have always been a matter of Fremdschämen.

m_s0 I see, yeah may statement may have been overly generalised, so thanks for the insight regarding the companies position in the industry. In any case, I am still optimistic that I will enjoy the game :)
 

Van-d-all

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Standin' pretty. In this dust that was a city.
I think they'll be fine either way.
Agree. Haemimont has a broad enough body of work that no one game defines them, even in the short term I think. As proof, pop quiz: what even WAS their previous game? You had to look it up, didn't you? :)
Stranded: Alien Down, a 3d Rimworld clone, I own it in early access. Honestly I think they're just cutting coupons. Since they made Tropico 3 they've been milking the franchise, and other than that, their recent games are just clones of current trends. Surviving Mars is just another Mars builder. Victor Vran is a generic hack & slash. There's some quality in their games that differentiates them from generic shovelware, but should they be able to produce a JA remake that stands out from all the previous lousy attempts (failed almost as much as XCom remakes) I'm not so sure. Still, I hope they will.
 

Ghulgothas

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Dev Diary 14 - A Look Back
Hello and welcome to our last DevDiary before release! We thought it would be best to do something special this time, so you are getting not just one one, but two Boi(y)ans interviewed, as we are celebrating our upcoming release by taking a fond retrospective look at the great games that started it all. We are Boian Spasov and Boyan Ivanov, co-creative directors of Jagged Alliance 3 and today we will be talking about our fond memories of Jagged Alliance 1 and Jagged Alliance 2 and the way these memories impacted the development of the sequel!

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Question: Let’s start with an easy one – for how long have you wanted to make a Jagged Alliance game?


Boyan.png.e97fa711e3a4fa0e1a4f0e6bae30119f.pngBoyan Ivanov: I’ve been fascinated with Jagged Alliance ever since I chanced upon JA2 in the early 2000s. I played it constantly for an entire summer. I’ve been wanting to try to make a game inspired by Jagged Alliance ever since my junior designer days more than a decade ago.

I’ve reached out to Jagged Alliance for inspiration multiple times over the years while working on other projects. Now having the chance to actually make the third installment of the series is still a bit unbelievable and overwhelming at times. The series is very near and dear to my heart.

Boian.png.59cb0f125b73594cd639a03929896910.pngBoian Spasov: There is a story that my colleagues love telling around but it bears repeating. When I applied for a game designer position at Haemimont Games way back in 2006 I was asked during my job interview to name any three existing games that I would love to work on if I ever get the chance. That question turned out oddly prophetic – one of the three was Tropico, a game series that Haemimont Games successfully revived and is famous for right now and another was Jagged Alliance - our most ambitious project yet.

So, for me quite literally Jagged Alliance 3 is a dream come true! I am incredibly grateful and humbled to have this opportunity not only because I always wanted to work on a sequel as a developer, but also because for many years I really wanted this game to exist as a fan of the series.

And no, I am not telling you what the third game I named on the interview was just yet – I might jinx it!

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Question: What do you remember about Jagged Alliance 1, the game that started it all?




Boian.png.59cb0f125b73594cd639a03929896910.pngBoian Spasov: I remember that in my eyes there was no other game quite like it. There were not many tactical games back then in 1995, but Jagged Alliance was not just a tactical game but an unique genre hybrid – there was a strategic element to it, an RPG element, as well as a humongous cast of fully voiced player characters, something unseen at the times!

Jagged Alliance 1 was not the expansive and refined beast of a game that Jagged Alliance 2 turned out to be few years later, but it was a special, quirky game with its own charm identity. One thing I particularly liked was how distinctive each merc was – all of them had hidden traits and distinct personalities and hidden mini-mechanics. For example, the old mercs lost stats instead of gaining them with experience, the native guides often reveled useful information for each particular area, some mercs couldn’t swim well, others were kleptomaniac, struggled with phobias or had hidden abilities and interactions...

It was unpredictable, at times even chaotic and I loved every minute of it - the game felt very different on each playthrough just depending on whoever you picked on the team.

Boyan.png.e97fa711e3a4fa0e1a4f0e6bae30119f.pngBoyan Ivanov: I became a fan of Jagged Alliance mostly through the second game but I do have some fond memories of playing JA1. Mostly of Tex and Ivan and their voice lines, mercs bantering with each other, but also of the whole team management aspect. Hiring mercs, managing their equipment finding new nifty items to use like the extended ear or the metal detector.

On the other hand I loved the strategic aspect. Going through the island sector by sector and claiming all the fallow trees (your source of income). Advancing time day by day and managing your mercs over a long period of time.

There were a lot of experimental games back in the 90s and JA1 felt like a very unique blend of genres. It didn’t fully click with me until Jagged Alliance 2 but I definitely have some fond and not so fond memories of the original title. Oh my god it’s full of eels!

JA3_DevDiary_13_03.gif.b50c291cb51a721d42de8fb50918bc6a.gif

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Question: Did any of these JA1 quirks and features find their way into Jagged Alliance 3?


Boyan.png.e97fa711e3a4fa0e1a4f0e6bae30119f.pngBoyan Ivanov: Definitely not the eels. The cast of unique mercs is of course the most important aspect to carry over. However, I think our approach to building the world, narrative and open world nature has its origins in JA1. We carried on with the tradition of setting the game in a fictional war torn country. A world map divided into sectors and the freedom to move through this world as you wish. Managing time and money as you pick which merc contracts to extend, when to hire new mercs and if you should let go of someone that’s too expensive to keep.

Boian.png.59cb0f125b73594cd639a03929896910.pngBoian Spasov: One important aspect that was inspired from JA1 was the uniqueness of the mercs and the sense that each of them brings something distinct and irreplaceable to the team, enough to perhaps prompt you to start a new game just to explore new player characters.

Of course, as 25 years have passed, this couldn’t work exactly as it did in Jagged Alliance 1 but it was an important design goal and the main drive to iterate on character personalities and relationships as well as their Quirks and unique personal perks.

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Question: Let’s move on to the most emblematic game in the series - Jagged Alliance 2. How would you describe it to a person that hasn’t seen it yet?


Boian.png.59cb0f125b73594cd639a03929896910.pngBoian Spasov: JA2 is a turn-based tactical game and one of the most realistic and entertaining combat sims at the time, but also so much more! It has this big and immersive sandbox world, rich with surprises and moral choices to make that I associated with RPG titles. Despite being primarily a tactical game, in my eyes JA2 often felt closer to the early Fallout games than to XCom.

The strategy/money management component was deepened and more developed as well – it was almost like an entire other game on top of the tactical battles.

I always had a soft spot in my heart for games that try to do things in their own way, breaking genre barriers and pushing the boundaries of game development ever further and to me JA2 is a prime example of this!

Boyan.png.e97fa711e3a4fa0e1a4f0e6bae30119f.pngBoyan Ivanov: *epic trailer voice improv* In a world ruled by a tyrannical queen, one man - Enrico, will come to you to free the people of Arulco from his angry wife. Form a team of unlikely heroes. Hear them quip, cheer and bicker with each other as they mow down an entire army of red shirts.

Join the vastly outgunned rebels and hear Ira complain as she misses every goddamn shot. Capture and operate gold mines to fund your small private army and don’t forget to do some online shopping. You need that extra scope for your M14 after all.

Paint the map green as you capture sector after sector until you give up in Meduna as those tanks and rocket rifles are just too annoying. Also don’t forget the aliens – genetically engineered insects – slay their queen and smear her jelly to make your armor stronger – yuck!


JA3_DevDiary_13_06.thumb.jpg.d397b7fa00a3bd038edc4c24b01e29d0.jpg
Screenshot courtesy of Lilura1, cRPG blog


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Question: What is your favorite feature or piece of content from JA2?


Boyan.png.e97fa711e3a4fa0e1a4f0e6bae30119f.pngBoyan Ivanov: *slap* Elliot! You Idiot! Definitely the “meanwhile…” cut-scenes make me chuckle every time I play JA2 again. And the fact that Elliot’s face gets worse and worse it really shows the attention to detail.

I love many of the side quests – the chalice of chance/hope, the one with the American tourists even the hicks near Cambria.

There are also many memorable locations like the military base at Alma, Tixa prison, San Mona. All of them presented a different challenge to get through and had enough interesting characters to be memorable and unique.

JA3_DevDiary_13_08.gif.89ad9e4b461db1144ebd7c6d62734dc9.gif


Boian.png.59cb0f125b73594cd639a03929896910.pngBoian Spasov: Oh, so hard to pick… If I have to settle on just one, it would be the custom merc character and the I.M.P. webpage/test used to create it. It was such a silly, yet entertaining way to create a character and I never once skipped it in all my years of re-playing the game.

Honorable mention goes to sending flowers to Deidranna – this little moment always manages to make me smile and remind me that the primary product of game development is simply “fun”.

JA3_DevDiary_13_09_c5.thumb.png.603991811bf8709867fa5e84163e197e.png


Question: You guys worked on many games through the years. Is there a Jagged Alliance trace or homage in any of these titles?


Boian.png.59cb0f125b73594cd639a03929896910.pngBoian Spasov: One game in particular comes to mind – Omerta: City of Gangsters. It was a small tactical game we released just before the resurgence of the genre with the new XCom series. Although the core gameplay was very different, our approach to creating the characters was very Jagged Alliance inspired, even if limited by the small budget of the game…

Boyan.png.e97fa711e3a4fa0e1a4f0e6bae30119f.pngBoyan Ivanov: Oh yeah, do you remember that Omerta even had a test for creating the main character loosely based on the I.M.P. test?

Even if Omerta was a small and humble title, we learned a lot from it and in a way it was our pilot title within the tactical genre. In a way it paved the road for our current, much more demanding, work on Jagged Alliance 3.

JA3_DevDiary_13_10_c5.thumb.png.34ee5b1a42841289ce0a465a6abe58e3.png


Question: How did the legacy of Jagged Alliance impacted the development of JA3 specifically?


Boyan.png.e97fa711e3a4fa0e1a4f0e6bae30119f.pngBoyan Ivanov: It was a bit nerve-racking initially. There have been many that tried to take on the Jagged Alliance series and none have succeeded so far. Being fans of the series, we knew that we wanted to keep the third installment close to the originals and keep the core intact - the unique blend of open world RPG aspects, tactical combat and strategic team management.

We also wanted to capture the unique atmosphere – the light hearted and fun band of misfits that have been hired to do a seemingly impossible task. The more somber and unpredictable aspect of chaotic firefights with bullets flying everywhere. The feeling that you can explore the world as you see fit and that every playthrough can offer something new.

Boian.png.59cb0f125b73594cd639a03929896910.pngBoian Spasov: The most dramatic impact was simply setting our ambition for the title. One thing was certain for day one – we wanted to create a true sequel and not just another game in the same franchise and that immediately set very demanding expectations for our scope and features.

The pillars of Jagged Alliance 3 represent our interpretation on what made Jagged Alliance 1 and especially Jagged Alliance 2 special – deep and realistic turn-based combat, a large cast of unique characters and strategic gameplay in a sandbox open world.

Have we succeeded in doing justice to this legacy? The players will be the ultimate judges of that, but God knows that we tried!

JA3_DevDiary_13_11_c5.thumb.png.0ed7be52ec3233179ae4ed26e36a0ba0.png
 

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