Jagged Alliance 3 from Haemimont Games

[gogis]

So is this game actually good?

Good tactical game? Yes.

Good Jagged Alliance game? Opinions are all over the place.

Do you mean it's another XCOM clone?

I'ts more similar to Wasteland, but better

let's recap.

- You have something similar to XCOM pod activation mechanic, but not really. It's not POD, it's per individual, all enemies who see action will react. Unless you initiated combat with agressive action, they tend to seek cover on first round, but it's wildly inconsistent, I encountered both shooting and stabbing when they supposed to run for cover. I don't have enough data of why this happens. If you initiate combat yourself, all your shoot/overwatch guys will have their AP spent
- You DO NOT have double action of XCOM. I'ts AP, just like in JA2/Wasteland. I wish they inflated AP number, like 1.13, for granularity, but we get what we get. I think they tried to copy JA2 instead of 1.13, which is questionable decision, but whatever. AP depends on same stats and expended with different speed depending on stance, just like JA.
- Despite couple retards here insist that game have binary hit/miss system like nuXCOM, it's properly simulates bullet physics. You will get stray hits, you will get wall penetration, floor destructions with fall damage and hits to different (from which you intended) body parts. Game literally have free aim mode (which you should use for better shotgun cones) if you dislike XCOM-like selection of targets. Once you get your first MG, any doubts about that will dissipate. Pretty much like JA2 minus bullet drop (which many people disable in 1.13 anyways)
- The cover system, it's basically visual. You see that pile of rubble? You see it red-broken-shield when you stay, it becomes half-shield when you crouch and full cover when you prone. Bad news it's not gonna provide any cover the steeper the angle from enemy to that cover. Not like nuXCOM, where full cover is full cover., unless you perfectly 90+ degrees flank it. Not to mention, that you don't see shit and can't shoot directly through that cover, so expect crouch/prone hopping. General advice - don't rely on UI cover representation at all - if it looks shabby or questionable it's indeed shabby and questionable.
- Overwatch system. Very similar to XCOM, but it's cone (unless you have merc with 360 degree), be careful with setup, because your merc can leave cover to set it up.

I think you getting so much feedback about it being close to nuXCOM than to JA2 because a) people are generally morons b) they don't play both games like I do regularly (and I play openXCOM too a lot). This game is infinitely closer to JA2 than to XCOM, not even close, even if it's need a lot of fixing.

I have still not see this miss one body part, hit another and I have also spent hours watching people playing it. Also didn't devs themselves confirm that if you miss one body part you will not hit another.
Also this is all beat by using hit chance mod that clearly shows that things like darkeness, cover and other shit gives -20 or -10 or -XX to your hit chances. It is not hard for PC game to say if cover gives -20% penalty and you miss by that 20% game fires your bullet towards that cover to make it seem more realistic.

I had 2 cases when I had friendly fire which was avoidable by selecting headshot (the usual situation when you shoot crouched right behind your prone ally) and still hitting my teammate. Also I had occasion of MD dropping a guy (with a perk) when I clearly selected body shot, not leg shot.

I already covered in this thread, that the fact that any game could show you percentage with all modifiers, despite fully simulating bullet physics, is not hard to do (you juxtapose easily calculated cone for distance vs size of the target) OpenXCOM does exactly that. It's literally means nothing. Usually this system ignores everything on the path of bullet, so percentage would lie.

Like I had occasion in mob boss mansion battle, where I placed my MG guy near guardhouse left of the gate and he literally couldn't hit shit for 3 rounds, both overwatch and long burst. After investigation I found he was hitting the impregnable rock patch in the grass in front of him. And I never saw "rock patch in front of you" modifier in my modifiers. After redoing this battle several times (it's super hard) he was routinely downing 2-3 people a turn (it's super packed with enemies), never completely missing a shot

It does sound like that but ultimate test is if you can miss body shots at enemy standing one square next to your guy where hit chance says it is less than 100%.

It doesn't disprove all above and doesn't prove anything. We don't know what math model they use for an aiming cone distribution. They can force gaussian-like guaranteed miss rate for last 5 percentile, which is wildly inaccurate, like 45 degrees to the target. Which will get you guaranteed misses at point blank range some of the time.

What conspiracy theorists here don't understand is that if you decided to simulate enemy and terrain hits/destruction/penetration on all distance towards and after your designated target - congratulations, you just implemented bullet physics.
It then takes extra retardation to manually degrade your model to satisfy binary xcom model so many people believe game has

 

[Fargus]

 

[Jonathan "Zee Nekomimi]

Not sure what you mean. Ammo is a magical substance that doesn't eat up inventory space and doesn't require any management whatsoever.

Because i have a central storage for loot and each of my squads use standard same caliber weapons so i can better logistic ammo between then, but it's annoying to have to scroll up and down the list looking for the correct type you need, plus possible duplicates when one stack gets full.

 

[ArchAngel]

So is this game actually good?

Good tactical game? Yes.

Good Jagged Alliance game? Opinions are all over the place.

Do you mean it's another XCOM clone?

I'ts more similar to Wasteland, but better

let's recap.

- You have something similar to XCOM pod activation mechanic, but not really. It's not POD, it's per individual, all enemies who see action will react. Unless you initiated combat with agressive action, they tend to seek cover on first round, but it's wildly inconsistent, I encountered both shooting and stabbing when they supposed to run for cover. I don't have enough data of why this happens. If you initiate combat yourself, all your shoot/overwatch guys will have their AP spent
- You DO NOT have double action of XCOM. I'ts AP, just like in JA2/Wasteland. I wish they inflated AP number, like 1.13, for granularity, but we get what we get. I think they tried to copy JA2 instead of 1.13, which is questionable decision, but whatever. AP depends on same stats and expended with different speed depending on stance, just like JA.
- Despite couple retards here insist that game have binary hit/miss system like nuXCOM, it's properly simulates bullet physics. You will get stray hits, you will get wall penetration, floor destructions with fall damage and hits to different (from which you intended) body parts. Game literally have free aim mode (which you should use for better shotgun cones) if you dislike XCOM-like selection of targets. Once you get your first MG, any doubts about that will dissipate. Pretty much like JA2 minus bullet drop (which many people disable in 1.13 anyways)
- The cover system, it's basically visual. You see that pile of rubble? You see it red-broken-shield when you stay, it becomes half-shield when you crouch and full cover when you prone. Bad news it's not gonna provide any cover the steeper the angle from enemy to that cover. Not like nuXCOM, where full cover is full cover., unless you perfectly 90+ degrees flank it. Not to mention, that you don't see shit and can't shoot directly through that cover, so expect crouch/prone hopping. General advice - don't rely on UI cover representation at all - if it looks shabby or questionable it's indeed shabby and questionable.
- Overwatch system. Very similar to XCOM, but it's cone (unless you have merc with 360 degree), be careful with setup, because your merc can leave cover to set it up.

I think you getting so much feedback about it being close to nuXCOM than to JA2 because a) people are generally morons b) they don't play both games like I do regularly (and I play openXCOM too a lot). This game is infinitely closer to JA2 than to XCOM, not even close, even if it's need a lot of fixing.

I have still not see this miss one body part, hit another and I have also spent hours watching people playing it. Also didn't devs themselves confirm that if you miss one body part you will not hit another.
Also this is all beat by using hit chance mod that clearly shows that things like darkeness, cover and other shit gives -20 or -10 or -XX to your hit chances. It is not hard for PC game to say if cover gives -20% penalty and you miss by that 20% game fires your bullet towards that cover to make it seem more realistic.

I had 2 cases when I had friendly fire which was avoidable by selecting headshot (the usual situation when you shoot crouched right behind your prone ally) and still hitting my teammate. Also I had occasion of MD dropping a guy (with a perk) when I clearly selected body shot, not leg shot.

I already covered in this thread, that the fact that any game could show you percentage with all modifiers, despite fully simulating bullet physics, is not hard to do (you juxtapose easily calculated cone for distance vs size of the target) OpenXCOM does exactly that. It's literally means nothing. Usually this system ignores everything on the path of bullet, so percentage would lie.

Like I had occasion in mob boss mansion battle, where I placed my MG guy near guardhouse left of the gate and he literally couldn't hit shit for 3 rounds, both overwatch and long burst. After investigation I found he was hitting the impregnable rock patch in the grass in front of him. And I never saw "rock patch in front of you" modifier in my modifiers. After redoing this battle several times (it's super hard) he was routinely downing 2-3 people a turn (it's super packed with enemies), never completely missing a shot

It does sound like that but ultimate test is if you can miss body shots at enemy standing one square next to your guy where hit chance says it is less than 100%.

It doesn't disprove all above and doesn't prove anything. We don't know what math model they use for an aiming cone distribution. They can force gaussian-like guaranteed miss rate for last 5 percentile, which is wildly inaccurate, like 45 degrees to the target. Which will get you guaranteed misses at point blank range some of the time.

What conspiracy theorists here don't understand is that if you decided to simulate enemy and terrain hits/destruction/penetration on all distance towards and after your designated target - congratulations, you just implemented bullet physics.
It then takes extra retardation to manually degrade your model to satisfy binary xcom model so many people believe game has

No, it sounds like you implemented expanded nuXcom model just like I have been arguing this whole time.

 

[Jrpgfan]

Btw, it seems this game has a modkit.

I feel the base mechanics have a lot of potential so great things could come from it.

 

[Hobo Elf]

One stealthy sniper can bring down the entire African army. Very based.

 

[Jrpgfan]

One stealthy sniper can bring down the entire African army. Very based.

I think that's why they implemented that "pod" system(which is not really a Pod system since you can still stealth kill without being detected/triggering enemy repositioning depending on the circunstances).

 

[Raghar]

One stealthy sniper can bring down the entire African army. Very based.

I think that's why they implemented that "pod" system(which is not really a Pod system since you can still stealth kill without being detected/triggering enemy repositioning depending on the circunstances).

That's assuming you manage to hit them with knife from behind, which even with attributes and skill is far from guaranteed.

 

[Jrpgfan]

One stealthy sniper can bring down the entire African army. Very based.

I think that's why they implemented that "pod" system(which is not really a Pod system since you can still stealth kill without being detected/triggering enemy repositioning depending on the circunstances).

That's assuming you manage to hit them with knife from behind, which even with attributes and skill is far from guaranteed.

I still don't know exactly how it works but I've killed quite a few enemies with stealth sniper shots without alarming the whole camp.

 

[Raghar]

Yea stealth sniper is safer because you are not receiving autofire when you have 0 AP in the first round.

 

[gogis]

So is this game actually good?

Good tactical game? Yes.

Good Jagged Alliance game? Opinions are all over the place.

Do you mean it's another XCOM clone?

I'ts more similar to Wasteland, but better

let's recap.

- You have something similar to XCOM pod activation mechanic, but not really. It's not POD, it's per individual, all enemies who see action will react. Unless you initiated combat with agressive action, they tend to seek cover on first round, but it's wildly inconsistent, I encountered both shooting and stabbing when they supposed to run for cover. I don't have enough data of why this happens. If you initiate combat yourself, all your shoot/overwatch guys will have their AP spent
- You DO NOT have double action of XCOM. I'ts AP, just like in JA2/Wasteland. I wish they inflated AP number, like 1.13, for granularity, but we get what we get. I think they tried to copy JA2 instead of 1.13, which is questionable decision, but whatever. AP depends on same stats and expended with different speed depending on stance, just like JA.
- Despite couple retards here insist that game have binary hit/miss system like nuXCOM, it's properly simulates bullet physics. You will get stray hits, you will get wall penetration, floor destructions with fall damage and hits to different (from which you intended) body parts. Game literally have free aim mode (which you should use for better shotgun cones) if you dislike XCOM-like selection of targets. Once you get your first MG, any doubts about that will dissipate. Pretty much like JA2 minus bullet drop (which many people disable in 1.13 anyways)
- The cover system, it's basically visual. You see that pile of rubble? You see it red-broken-shield when you stay, it becomes half-shield when you crouch and full cover when you prone. Bad news it's not gonna provide any cover the steeper the angle from enemy to that cover. Not like nuXCOM, where full cover is full cover., unless you perfectly 90+ degrees flank it. Not to mention, that you don't see shit and can't shoot directly through that cover, so expect crouch/prone hopping. General advice - don't rely on UI cover representation at all - if it looks shabby or questionable it's indeed shabby and questionable.
- Overwatch system. Very similar to XCOM, but it's cone (unless you have merc with 360 degree), be careful with setup, because your merc can leave cover to set it up.

I think you getting so much feedback about it being close to nuXCOM than to JA2 because a) people are generally morons b) they don't play both games like I do regularly (and I play openXCOM too a lot). This game is infinitely closer to JA2 than to XCOM, not even close, even if it's need a lot of fixing.

I have still not see this miss one body part, hit another and I have also spent hours watching people playing it. Also didn't devs themselves confirm that if you miss one body part you will not hit another.
Also this is all beat by using hit chance mod that clearly shows that things like darkeness, cover and other shit gives -20 or -10 or -XX to your hit chances. It is not hard for PC game to say if cover gives -20% penalty and you miss by that 20% game fires your bullet towards that cover to make it seem more realistic.

I had 2 cases when I had friendly fire which was avoidable by selecting headshot (the usual situation when you shoot crouched right behind your prone ally) and still hitting my teammate. Also I had occasion of MD dropping a guy (with a perk) when I clearly selected body shot, not leg shot.

I already covered in this thread, that the fact that any game could show you percentage with all modifiers, despite fully simulating bullet physics, is not hard to do (you juxtapose easily calculated cone for distance vs size of the target) OpenXCOM does exactly that. It's literally means nothing. Usually this system ignores everything on the path of bullet, so percentage would lie.

Like I had occasion in mob boss mansion battle, where I placed my MG guy near guardhouse left of the gate and he literally couldn't hit shit for 3 rounds, both overwatch and long burst. After investigation I found he was hitting the impregnable rock patch in the grass in front of him. And I never saw "rock patch in front of you" modifier in my modifiers. After redoing this battle several times (it's super hard) he was routinely downing 2-3 people a turn (it's super packed with enemies), never completely missing a shot

It does sound like that but ultimate test is if you can miss body shots at enemy standing one square next to your guy where hit chance says it is less than 100%.

It doesn't disprove all above and doesn't prove anything. We don't know what math model they use for an aiming cone distribution. They can force gaussian-like guaranteed miss rate for last 5 percentile, which is wildly inaccurate, like 45 degrees to the target. Which will get you guaranteed misses at point blank range some of the time.

What conspiracy theorists here don't understand is that if you decided to simulate enemy and terrain hits/destruction/penetration on all distance towards and after your designated target - congratulations, you just implemented bullet physics.
It then takes extra retardation to manually degrade your model to satisfy binary xcom model so many people believe game has

No, it sounds like you implemented expanded nuXcom model just like I have been arguing this whole time.

Are you working as dev? Because I am. What you arguing for is unrealistic in any half-competent dev team. You don't implement simple systems and then add complex addendum to it, you doing it other way around. Anybody coming up with idea to implement simple nuXCOM model as a core and then add much more sophisticated system for collaterals will be politely asked to check his head.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Jackhammer dropped his shooty.

I put him back in the jail, not sure why I wouldn't get his gun right then, not like he'd keep it. Ah well I only have one shotgun guy and he's not hurting for gear at this point.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Yea stealth sniper is safer because you are not receiving autofire when you have 0 AP in the first round.

That's why you use Fox, she gets to keep her Ap from her surprise shot. I've walked into rooms with two guys, dropped one, start combat, drop the next, no more aware hostiles, combat over.

 

[gogis]

Jackhammer dropped his shooty.

I put him back in the jail, not sure why I wouldn't get his gun right then, not like he'd keep it. Ah well I only have one shotgun guy and he's not hurting for gear at this point.

Spoiler

I let him loose, went for operations/recuperation, he showed up later with band of goons and I've got his shooty from his cold hands

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Interesting to see different choices and their results.

In regards to the physics modeling, I had one case where I unloaded full auto on a guy kitty corner through a doorway. Even though all the bullets visibly hit the character model and caused blood splatters the game decided the view was obstructed and so there was no damage.

So its an attempt to have realistic cover but it's not quite there, and frankly explains why most games go with a greater level of abstraction. The other issue is the battlefields are way too cluttered, even in areas where they shouldn't be like the approach to an active and well defended base.

 

[Paul_cz]

Ukrainian girl knows what's up

Meanwhile communists just as moronic as in real life

I love the game tbh, it scratches the itch I had for over two decades.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

r u playing with a controller????

 

[Gumsmith]

Worst part of the game is that the AI is retarded, braindead even. It will constantly forget about which side the cover is meant to be on and at one point I stormed the prison building and the two guys in the bunkroom did literally nothing until they were killed. Running around the sector clicking on shit after the battle is over is getting pretty old too.

Still fun, though.

 

[geno]

I hate burst fire.

 

[raeven]

One stealthy sniper can bring down the entire African army. Very based.

I think that's why they implemented that "pod" system(which is not really a Pod system since you can still stealth kill without being detected/triggering enemy repositioning depending on the circunstances).

It's also not a pod system because:

- other enemies come investigate if they are in hearing range
- sometimes enemies are alone
- sometimes they are together but then separate
- even if they don't hear you, enemies will stumble across you or the dead bodies you leave behind

So basically the things that supposedly make it a pod system are:

- enemies get a limited reposition when alerted to your presence
-sometimes enemies are close to one another

This is nothing like XCOM pods. The point of calling them "pods" in xcom is that they are isolated from one another and if you haven't "popped" (seen) them yet, they stay static and don't move, which makes seeing the whole battlefield an unintended hard mode.

In JA3, enemies behave the same whether you see them or not and act independently.

Having a reposition phase is not the same as having a pod system.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Worst part of the game is that the AI is retarded, braindead even. It will constantly forget about which side the cover is meant to be on and at one point I stormed the prison building and the two guys in the bunkroom did literally nothing until they were killed. Running around the sector clicking on shit after the battle is over is getting pretty old too.

Still fun, though.

I suspect the scripting in that location is effed.

Probably under the hood this is less an emergent AI system and more a bunch of scripts and triggers that have to be tweaked by devs.

 

[Jonathan "Zee Nekomimi]

Anyone already messed with game files and know how i can change mercenary hiring limits? 15 it's not enough for my autismo.

 

[oasis789]

- other enemies come investigate if they are in hearing range
- sometimes enemies are alone
- sometimes they are together but then separate
- even if they don't hear you, enemies will stumble across you or the dead bodies you leave behind

This issue is that gunfire should be audible across the entire zone, and even if it isn't, enemies should be communicating about contact. Even JA2 had enemies using walkie talkies.

 

[Jinn]

Thank god the entirety of the codex hasn't gone retarded off of huffing cynicism fumes. The game is really good and one of the best tactical RPGs we've gotten in a long time. Some really impressive stuff to be found here in this day and age, with a fantastic foundation for modders to build on to make even better. There's a lot of little moments where I find myself saying "am I really playing a game made in 2023?"

Also wanted to mention how much I'm enjoying the soundtrack, which is an extra bonus surprise. Very nice compositions.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Jackhammer dropped his shooty.

I put him back in the jail, not sure why I wouldn't get his gun right then, not like he'd keep it. Ah well I only have one shotgun guy and he's not hurting for gear at this point.

Spoiler

I let him loose, went for operations/recuperation, he showed up later with band of goons and I've got his shooty from his cold hands

Duuurrrr I am an idiot, the gun was in my inventory.