KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance - Dan Vavra's medieval chad simulator

[moon knight]

How come a small German studio have managed to pull that off back in the early 00s, despite working with a much slower hardware?

Are you talking aout Gothic?

 

[Victor1234]

I think he means the Guild games? They had medieval towns with NPCs that would go to taverns to drink, home to sleep, go to work during the day, etc.

Not just them either. Gangsters Organized Crime from 1998 also had IIRC a few thousand NPCs moving around the map of a Prohibition era city.

 

[cvv]

How come a small German studio have managed to pull that off back in the early 00s, despite working with a much slower hardware?

You mean Khorinis in G2? There are what, a few dozen NPCs, with vastly simpler routines and reactions than KCD.

What we're talking is Prague, a major medieval metropolis with tens of thousands RL inhabitants. Even with some necessary streamlining, as a concession to gaming, you're looking at a few thousand NPCs.

In comparison there are about 1.5k NPCs in TW3 Novigrad and those are just empty shells with zero routines. If something like that is even possible in any engine it's definitely not CE3.

 

[Wunderbar]

Come on, do you really expect Warhorse to make a city with tens of thousands NPCs each with their own intricate routine? No one needs that.

A combination of different tiers should do the work. Complex AI for plot-relevant characters, less complex Gothic 2-tier AI for merchants, and simplistic AI for extras to fill out the space and make Prague a believeable city.

Now, why Warhorse still reused their CPU-taxing AI for soldiers that appear during setpiece battles such as the siege of Talmberg instead of dumbing it down is a mystery to me.

 

[cvv]

Come on, do you really expect Warhorse to make a city with tens of thousands NPCs each with their own intricate routine? No one needs that.

A combination of different tiers should do the work. Complex AI for plot-relevant characters, less complex Gothic 2-tier AI for merchants, and simplistic AI for extras to fill out the space and make Prague a believeable city.

Now, why Warhorse still reused their CPU-taxing AI for soldiers that appear during setpiece battles such as the siege of Talmberg instead of dumbing it down is a mystery to me.

I specifically said streamlining is necessary. But even cutting it down to a mere 1000 would be likely impossible and any lower you're risking the Whiterun effect from Skyrim - a supposedly majestic metropolis of the empire feeling like a dingy backwater hamlet.

As for the tiers, not sure how much that would help. Even simplistic NPCs still need to react to the PC killing and stealing, still need a day/night cycle and at least some basic routine. Meaning you wouldn't save much.

As for the last point, are you sure that's the case? Citation needed.

 

[Wesp5]

But even cutting it down to a mere 1000 would be likely impossible and any lower you're risking the Whiterun effect from Skyrim - a supposedly majestic metropolis of the empire feeling like a dingy backwater hamlet.

I never really played one, but don't the Assassins Creed game do this all the time? I played the free Paris one for a bit and there were thousands of NPCs running around, don't know if they have schedules though.

 

[moon knight]

I never really played one, but don't the Assassins Creed game do this all the time? I played the free Paris one for a bit and there were thousands of NPCs running around, don't know if they have schedules though.

These NPCs are randomly generated and don't have a scheduling. Their ambient behaviour is walking around of standing still in groups, and running away when the player enters in a combat state.

 

[SlamDunk]

I'm beyond ready for the announcement. Perhaps during the Game Developers Conference in March...

 

[Funposter]

Come on, do you really expect Warhorse to make a city with tens of thousands NPCs each with their own intricate routine? No one needs that.

A combination of different tiers should do the work. Complex AI for plot-relevant characters, less complex Gothic 2-tier AI for merchants, and simplistic AI for extras to fill out the space and make Prague a believeable city.

Now, why Warhorse still reused their CPU-taxing AI for soldiers that appear during setpiece battles such as the siege of Talmberg instead of dumbing it down is a mystery to me.

I specifically said streamlining is necessary. But even cutting it down to a mere 1000 would be likely impossible and any lower you're risking the Whiterun effect from Skyrim - a supposedly majestic metropolis of the empire feeling like a dingy backwater hamlet.

As for the tiers, not sure how much that would help. Even simplistic NPCs still need to react to the PC killing and stealing, still need a day/night cycle and at least some basic routine. Meaning you wouldn't save much.

As for the last point, are you sure that's the case? Citation needed.

An accurate interpretation of Prague's scale will require a complete overhaul to the design philosophy of the game. KCD follows the modern TES design philosophy that all doors are open to the player, and therefore that all areas can be explored and interacted with at any time. If you can see a door, you can open it, and it will lead somewhere. This is a direct contrast to The Witcher 3, or any of the Assassin's Creed games that Wesp5 mentioned, where large portions of the cities are simply set dressing. I don't see a fusion of these two designs being congruent because it leads to inconsistent rules for the player. Why can some doors be opened, but not others? Why can some interiors be explored, but not others? Why do some NPCs have full scheduling, but not others? It sounds ideal to only have full NPC scheduling for a handful of important people (let's say, 100) and then have thousands of cardboard cutout NPCs whose only drain on computational power is a script telling them to wander around, but it would be really weird to see these two things clash and I think there's a good reason that we haven't seen a developer do it yet.

 

[Jenkem]

Man I really hope this game is set in Prague, then we can finally get some PoC representation...

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I never really played one, but don't the Assassins Creed game do this all the time? I played the free Paris one for a bit and there were thousands of NPCs running around, don't know if they have schedules though.

These NPCs are randomly generated and don't have a scheduling. Their ambient behaviour is walking around of standing still in groups, and running away when the player enters in a combat state.

Which is nearly all background NPCs need to actually do. They just need the illusion of existing.

 

[moon knight]

This is a direct contrast to The Witcher 3,

The Witcher 3 has NPCs with scheduling and their own homes in small villages, but it's in Novigrad that most of NPCs and homes are set dressing. By necessity, because it's impossible to adopt the TES approach, with RadiantAI ™ etc..., to a huge and densely populated city.

 

[Victor1234]

Just on the note of NPC AI, ARMA 3 mods have solved this exact issue very well. For those game modes that require a 'living map' full of NPCs to set up roadblocks, plant bombs, do patrols, etc all across the map at the same time. They both do and don't exist on the map, until you're nearby. I'm not enough of a tech nerd to know how exactly, but I do know as a player it works seamlessly on my end in terms of performance and mostly for believable behaviour. They don't have a day and night routine exactly, but you can set civilians to go to churches/mosques at specific (ie, prayer) times. They are open source so anyone with brains for it can dive in for details.

https://github.com/ALiVEOS/ALiVE.OS

ALiVE features the revolutionary Virtual Profile System that supports thousands of units operating simultaneously across the map with minimal impact on performance. Unlike older caching systems, Virtual AI groups will continue to move, operate and fight and will seamlessly spawn into the visual game world when players are in range.

A singleplayer mission with scripting and no mods running on the base engine also did a similar thing back in 2014 in terms of ambient AI on the map but easy on performance, so it can't be that hard. It ended up (rightly) winning some modding prize back in the day.

http://makearmanotwar.com/entry/x7CU4awL7O

Semi-randomized, procedural and customizable mission with optional plot to follow. Your task is to find and take home the body of your brother who was killed recently on Altis - island terrorised by local warlords, brutal bands of mercenaries and other marauders of just burned out civil war.

 

[Lhynn]

Come on, do you really expect Warhorse to make a city with tens of thousands NPCs each with their own intricate routine? No one needs that.

I do, id like to play that.
Even if the whole game was about being in that city and the gameplay was purely emergent, id like to play that shit.

 

[cvv]

An accurate interpretation of Prague's scale will require a complete overhaul to the design philosophy of the game.

They could do what TW3 did - not one seamless open world but a collection of instances, with one or two huge ones and a couple of smaller areas. There could be just a small slice of Prague with the open door policy.

Would get a blowback tho. People generally don't like this fragmentation.

 

[moon knight]

Would get a blowback tho. People generally don't like this fragmentation.

Because the world feels less immersive that way. TW3 fragmentation works because Skellige and Kaer Morhen are very far from Novigrad.

 

[somerandomdude]

Come on, do you really expect Warhorse to make a city with tens of thousands NPCs each with their own intricate routine? No one needs that.

I do, id like to play that.
Even if the whole game was about being in that city and the gameplay was purely emergent, id like to play that shit.

......even if the game runs like a slide show?

Personally, I'd rather they optimize a game for 60fps at the game's recommended specs. They have to work within the limitations of current hardware. Maybe in 20+ years when everyone's got quantum processors in their desktops can we have 10s of thousands of NPCs with unique and adaptive routines, but until then they have to give realistic consideration to optimization, and we currently can't have both.

 

[Paul_cz]

Cinematic director of KCD released his own short movie that he made on his own in Blender



Shame he ain't at Warhorse anymore

 

[Infinitron]

#KingdomComeDeliverance, a story-driven open-world #RPG by Warhorse Studios, released on the 13th of February 2018, is celebrating its 5th anniversary today!

The game would never see the light of day without the support of our backers and loyal community throughout the whole development. Thank you. And cheers to everyone who stumbled upon Henry’s story and enjoyed his adventures!

 

[Villagkouras]

There is a sports radio show in Greece, which is the biggest radio show in terms of listeners. Hosted by two guys, 53 and 75 years old. They talk mainly about football, but other things as well, like cinema, politics etc. They're doing it since 1999.

Last week, the 75 year old starting talking about Kingdom Come, saying in the end that it's the best game he's ever played (he also plays Civilization, Arma and other games) and recommended it to anyone remotely interested in games. I, for sure, didn't expect this mention.

 

[Nelka]

#KingdomComeDeliverance, a story-driven open-world #RPG by Warhorse Studios, released on the 13th of February 2018, is celebrating its 5th anniversary today!

The game would never see the light of day without the support of our backers and loyal community throughout the whole development. Thank you. And cheers to everyone who stumbled upon Henry’s story and enjoyed his adventures!

5 years ALREADY? wew, time flies...
We'll probably have to wait a bit longer for something... well, anything at this point, to be announced, but that's already taking them sooo freakin' long, the hell...
It's like Acid Wizard Studio once again, they released amazing game that I enjoyed soo much, and went radio silence for many years.
I wonder what engine we will see in their next game, I feel like engine limitations and how they approached it was and probably still is a big problem for them.

 

[fork]

5 years ALREADY? wew, time flies...

Yep, death is near, rejoice!

 

[cvv]

More importantly the Czech dub is now available for download.

 

[SlamDunk]

Stumbled upon this recent article written by a game designer at Warhorse Studios.

Uncanny valley: Why do some NPCs creep you out? - Leni Krsova

 

[SlamDunk]

The studio description just got updated: https://warhorsestudios.cz/en/career/

We are the gaming studio that brought you Kingdom Come Deliverance, an award winning medieval RPG. Packed with creative storytellers, gifted artists and technology magicians, we are now working on a new project. Higher ambitions, greater production values and yet the same passion and strong artistic vision not surrendering to any mainstream trends.

Apologies for the double-post.