Kingdom Come: Deliverance II Thread

[Multidirectional]

I also saw a reference to Predator "pencil pusher" scene in one of side quests, where Henry helps a nobleman kill bunch of Cumans and rescue his brother.

 

[lukaszek]

I'm playing a high budget cinematic RPG, and it still has Tarantino references

i know what you mean

Spoiler

 

[AwesomeButton]

i know what you mean

I rather mean scenes like the one where Zizka and Henry shoot the hand cannons when freeing the Devil.

Or the "practicing Italian" scene.

Back on the subject of historical accuracy, I watched this 2018 presentation for KCD1 fully:


I am really impressed by Vavra's self confidence and bare cheek. For someone claiming to be into medieval history, reenactments, etc., to be confused and dismissive about not knowing the origins of the Waldensian heresy, this is some really expert-level of self-fart-sniffing he has achieved, and this was even before the first game became a hit. He must consider himself a medievalist professor by now

I think it's obvious that "historically accurate" is meaningless when it comes to a videogame, and particularly this one. Maybe "inspired by historical events", or "immersing in the period" would be the more accurate way to describe it. The geography, architecture and interiors are well researched, but the characters, for the most part, don't live in this period. They live in a Hollywood script. In the presentation Vavra cites "Braveheart" and "Kingdom of Heaven", precisely the movies that I was using for comparison for KCD2's narrative style.

Specifically, how can melee combat ever be "historically accurate" in a videogame? The amount of real-life factors that can never be simulated is so great, that it makes "historically accurate" a meaningless term.

He read a few books and took the effort to find consultants and carefully ask them questions, throwing away whatever didn't fit his vision. Goes to show how low the bar usually is for research, if this is worthy of special praise.

Lastly, I forgot to mention another historical accuracy goof. The battle near the besieged Nicopolis was fought in 1396 as most of us in this thread already know by now. Sigismund lost that battle to the Turks, and accounts of the battle make it clear that it was the lack of coordination and the undisciplined charge of the French/Burgundian knights that predetermined the crusaders' defeat. In KCD2, in a conversation with Brabant, the French character who deserves a separate analysis, Brabant says something in the lines that Sigismund holds French knights in high respect. To which Henry replies "Even after Constantinople?" This line makes no sense, unless its writer has mistaken Nicopolis for Constantinople! Then the error was never fixed, and the line got voiced, and remained in the game. Sigismund or French knights have nothing to do with Constantinople, and nothing of note for this context was happening in Constantinople in that period.

Dislcaimer: sure these are a couple of isolated examples in an overall convincing setting, but when someone starts gaslighting me that he has really put effort into weaving a Malian into 15th century Moravia, he should be called out for his errors.

 

[axedice]

Musa describes his decision to ask to be sent to Sigismund's court as means to free himself of Beyazid's court before what he saw as an inevitable fall of the Ottoman state in its war with Tamerlane (or the "Golden Horde" as Musa calls it). As he says himself "I did not want to wait for Timur's savages to cut my head off". Since the direct war between Tamerlane and Beyazid erupted in 1400, that is the earliest time when Musa could have asked to leave Beyazid's court. Still, he must have been a very keen strategist, or deeply pessimistic about Beyazid's chances, in order to look for refuge in Hungary this early. Beyazid was at the height of his power, having received the title Sultan of Anatolia a couple of years prior.

Musa managed to persuade Bayezid to send him to Hungary with Sigismund's messenger as a "goodwill gesture". As I wrote earlier in this thread, there is no evidence that Beyazid and Sigismund have ever been in contact, and the closest they ever were to each other was at the battle of Nicopolis. That Beyazid would make gestures of good will after mass executing prisoners from Nicopolis, selling others into slavery, and ransoming those who were worth most, is very unlikely.

"It was around then" - Musa says, so this must be some time between 1400 and the battle of Ankara, on 20th July 1402 - "that Sigismund's messenger came to see the sultan". Four years after Nicopolis, Sigismund sends a messenger to Beyazid? What on Earth for? There were no diplomatic relations between the Ottoman state and any Christian states, and there would not be for decades on.

"But let us say king Sigismund did not show me the respect that my position is worthy of". A bit vague, because what was his position? "Instead of making me his counsellor and physician he sent me here!"

Like I wrote all those pages back, in the pre-release thread, explaining Musa in Alexandria or Anatolia, or even in Adrianople is relatively easy, but explaining Musa in Bohemia is very, very difficult. But I can't say there was much effort put in it anyway.

I'm trying to find a justification for this, but it's really hard. The coming calamity between Timur & Bayezid was obvious from years ago, as Bayezid started to harbour the rulers fleeing from Timur's onslaught, so that may explain why a dignitary in the ottoman court might want out before the war begins for real. But the golden horde blunder can have no explanation.
Bayezid sent some french dude to extract the ransoms, so there was limited contact but it mostly went through genoese traders. Sigismund also tried to ransom his commanders through byzantine contacts, sooo if we stretch it too thin Musa's story can hold some water. To Americans that is, whom this nigga in bohemia bullshit was inserted for.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Musa could have spent only a few years at Bayezid's "court" (as much as a court existed at that time) - because the war with Timur started in 1400. Bayezid likely got the title of "sultan" from the Mamluks in 1391, with whom he was later allied against Timur. Receiving the title is what would have increased his prestige enough to justify what Musa describes by him "receiving envoys from all over the world". Musa must have arrived sometime after 1391 and left sometime after the end of 1396 (Nikopolis was fought 25th September 1396) but before the end of the war with Timur (first half of 1402). Which only makes it more strange, that Musa would ask to be allowed to go to none other but Bayezid's greatest European enemy. Since Bayezid wasn't planning on getting captured in battle in 1402, it's quite safe for us to assume Beyazid would have denied Musa's request for concerns over security and intelligence leaks if Musa should end up an advisor of Sigismund.

Vavra is a hack for allowing this, the more I think about it

An exchange of high-ranking prisoners as a guarantee against future attacks from either side, now that was a common practice, but with the Ottomans I don't know off the top of my head if it was ever done. I know they would lock up foreign ambassadors in dungeons in case of war with a foreign state, like they did with Russia, but that was happening much later than our period.

I'm trying to find a justification for this, but it's really hard. The coming calamity between Timur & Bayezid was obvious from years ago, as Bayezid started to harbour the rulers fleeing from Timur's onslaught

I was also thinking that Musa could have been better explained as coming into Hungary through one of the Italian merchant republics. Putting him in Adrianople, which was the effective capital of the Ottoman beylik before Constantinople, only makes explaining him more difficult.

Didn't Timur in turn also gather support from the emirs of the smaller Turkoman principalities, which Beyazid wanted to centralize under his rule?

 

[Konjad]

Musa doesn't need no explanation, you racist fuck.

 

[vota DC]

Found a kike camp while looking for dragon bones, ran by some uppity cunt. She proceeds to call Henry "barely literate donkey", then Henry retorts that he spent time in monastery so she proceeds to insult the monks too and say how her grandfather kabbalist is much superior to them. Of course not a single dialogue choice given to insult her back or tell her to shut up. Because this is all realistic medieval stuff and Henry is you. Well fuck it, at least they weren't unkillable. Good riddance.

Dragon? The bones of someone called dragon like the tooth of someone called Procopius but isn't Saint Procopius that the charlatan ask you to take in kcd1?

 

[Multidirectional]

Dragon? The bones of someone called dragon like the tooth of someone called Procopius but isn't Saint Procopius that the charlatan ask you to take in kcd1?

I don't know, by the time I got where bones were supposed to be they were gone. I had to rest to recover health after a fistfight with thugs who were intimidating the monk, so I guess that's what caused quest to fail. That fucking fistfight lasted what seemed like at least 20 minutes, it started during daytime and it was night when it was over. And I had to reload couple times too because guards kept getting involved for some reason. Tedious shit. Definitely contributed to me slaughtering the kike camp, had low tolerance for bullshit at that point.

 

[kain30]

Dragon? The bones of someone called dragon like the tooth of someone called Procopius but isn't Saint Procopius that the charlatan ask you to take in kcd1?

I have no idea, by the time I got where bones were supposed to be they were gone. I had to rest to recover health after a fistfight with thugs who were intimidating the monk, so I guess that's what caused quest to fail. That fucking fistfight lasted what seemed like at least 20 minutes, it started during daytime and it was night when it was over. And I had to reload couple times too because guards kept getting involved for some reason. Tedious shit. Definitely contributed to me slaughtering the kike camp, had low tolerance for bullshit at that point.

I arrvied and the bones were still there. They were dinosaur bones.

 

[NecroLord]

Musa doesn't need no explanation, you racist fuck.

He's literally Vavra fanfiction character.

 

[Multidirectional]

I arrvied and the bones were still there. They were dinosaur bones.

That's what I assumed they would be.

 

[axedice]

An exchange of high-ranking prisoners as a guarantee against future attacks from either side, now that was a common practice, but with the Ottomans I don't know off the top of my head if it was ever done. I know they would lock up foreign ambassadors in dungeons in case of war with a foreign state, like they did with Russia, but that was happening much later than our period.

Didn't Timur in turn also gather support from the emirs of the smaller Turkoman principalities, which Beyazid wanted to centralize under his rule?

Ottomans knew the importance of aristocratic prisoners since they could be milked for ransom, especially if they're from rich western countries like france. But an exchange never happened AFAIK either, since there was no feudal aristocracy in the ottomans, at least in the sense of EU aristocracy. During the times of Bayezid (ie before the conquest of constantinople - pre empire era), the vassal anatolian states were more like allies in practice with their rulers holding a lot of sway in court, thus them and their families could be considered a sort of aristocracy, but I think the ottoman motto at the time was : if you're inadequate enough to be captured, then you deserve whatever fate befalls you.

Timur indeed gathered the support of Bayezid's enemies, at the same time Timur's enemies from iranian, kurdish and arabian states also went to Bayezid for protection after they were ousted. According to some historians, this conflict in spheres of influence was what triggered war between Timur & Ottomans, as capturing and ruling anatolia or Balkans did not really interest Timur.

 

[Elttharion]

Is it true that Musa is in his 20's?

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I think it's obvious that "historically accurate" is meaningless when it comes to a videogame, and particularly this one. Maybe "inspired by historical events", or "immersing in the period" would be the more accurate way to describe it. The geography, architecture and interiors are well researched, but the characters, for the most part, don't live in this period.

When to comes to research for any story, the 80/20 rule applies. Basically do enough research to convince 80% of the audience it's authentic, while accepting that 20% are going to roll their eyes at your obvious goofs. It's a question of cost-benefit analysis.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I know they would lock up foreign ambassadors in dungeons

I looked up the name of the prison. It was the Yedikule ("seven towers") fort which, before becoming a prison, served as the Ottoman equivalent of the "Italian court": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yedikule_Fortress

 

[AwesomeButton]

I think it's obvious that "historically accurate" is meaningless when it comes to a videogame, and particularly this one. Maybe "inspired by historical events", or "immersing in the period" would be the more accurate way to describe it. The geography, architecture and interiors are well researched, but the characters, for the most part, don't live in this period.

When to comes to research for any story, the 80/20 rule applies. Basically do enough research to convince 80% of the audience it's authentic, while accepting that 20% are going to roll their eyes at your obvious goofs. It's a question of cost-benefit analysis.

Sure, and I don't mean to deny the positives of the research that was actually done. But I find it telling, that very basic mistakes start emerging as soon as we leave the geopolitical area and timeframe that were the subject of research. The Golden Horde mention, the Nikopolis typo, Bayezid giving leave to someone to go into the service of his one big enemy at the same time as he was going to war with the other big enemy. The Nikopolis thing is surely a typo that was not caught, because the battle is mentioned at least once in KCD2 and I think more than once in KCD1 including in the intro.

It was interesting to learn the details of the coin minting process and of the silver mining operations. I was surprised to learn they were working constantly, including night shifts. I wonder if the miners were allowed time off on sundays for religious reasons.

 

[lukaszek]

looks like when speaking with french dude, if you got maxed nearly everything then you can ask him for his stories and call out his bullshit in each one. Is there something special happening if you exhaust them all ?

 

[AwesomeButton]

looks like when speaking with french dude, if you got maxed nearly everything then you can ask him for his stories and call out his bullshit in each one. Is there something special happening if you exhaust them all ?

Cursed roleplaying, I hadn't maxed out my skills enough.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Let's see, redhead daughter of the richest man in town, or Jan Ziska's sloppy seconds. Unless you have a fetish for being eskimo brothers with a legendary Czech, who on earth picks Katherine?

 

[cvv]

looks like when speaking with french dude, if you got maxed nearly everything then you can ask him for his stories and call out his bullshit in each one. Is there something special happening if you exhaust them all ?

I did call him out, succeeded everytime and all I got was a lowered rep with him. Which matters fuck all. Sad.

 

[NecroLord]

Let's see, redhead daughter of the richest man in town, or Jan Ziska's sloppy seconds. Unless you have a fetish for being eskimo brothers with a legendary Czech, who on earth picks Katherine?

I don't think it is implied Katherine ever was with another man after being found by Zizka literally on the side of a road while holding her dead baby. After her experience, I am sure you can understand why that is.
Zizka allowed her to join only because she wants revenge so badly and is useful as a spy and for gathering information.
Rosa is kinda annoying with her smug intellect.
Also that face...

 

[Jinn]

The more time passes since I dropped my playthrough, the more annoyed I become by how thoroughly they failed at creating a challenging experience. The first game wasn't brutal throughout by any means, but it felt good at least up to the halfway point and a bit beyond. I think KCD2 gave me a somewhat decent amount of difficulty for maybe the first 10 hours. After that I was dropping armored enemies in 3-4 hits without them landing a single blow on me. It really changed something that could have been a contender for GOTY for me into a rather big disappointment. Even more frustrating is that Warhorse will likely never recognize their absolute failure in this regard because the large majority of their players (particularly newcomers) are so moronic and bad at RPGs and videogames in general that they complain that the game is too hard.

What a shame. It's probably going to be a good 6 or so months before a proper rebalance or difficulty mod is released. Such an easily avoidable blunder. Guess we should just always expect bigger RPGs to release in game journalist mode from here on out.

 

[The Wall]

There is preview of Hardcore Mod on WarHorse's Twitch channel. Looks Deus Cool

 

[cvv]

There is preview of Hardcore Mod on WarHorse's Twitch channel. Looks Deus Cool

Noice. Some of the new perks gonna be p. obnoxious, like Bashful, Bad Back or Heavy-Footed.

Unlike KCD1 this time Hardcore doesn't seem to feature slower stamina regen and cosmically expensive repair costs.

 

[Jinn]

Are you going to have to start a fresh new game to play Hardcore?