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Morrowind vs Neverwinter nights

nwn or morrowind


  • Total voters
    96

luj1

You're all shills
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https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/why-does-everyone-hate-morrowind.10050/ -> This one has a poll, where a majority of people say they like morrowind but virtually every post is anti morrowind, so I'm assuming morrowind/TES fans went back and voted in it years later.
conspiratorial mindset of the average morrowind disliker

Beans is a peasant normie who just doesnt get Morrowind. It's like showing Citizen Kane to a pigeon. It will just stare blankly at it.

And when people cant grasp a masterpiece they invent copes like "It must be nostalgia"
 
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luj1

You're all shills
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But as is, their actual fun factor never manages to surpass a meager 4/10. That's how horrendously NWN plays. It manages to drag down absolute masterpiece 10/10 content like the Swordflight series to the gutter.

That is like saying Morrowind is 10/10 but the engine drags it down to 4/10

That is bullshit. Games are either good, or they aren't

Swordflight is 10/10 and is better than 90% of CRPGs since Kickstarter
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Maybe if someone made a proper full party control mod for NWN, Swordflight could be fun to play. As is, it's an exercise in frustration as your retarded AI companions commit suicide over and over. And NWN combat is just inherently unfun to play.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Morrowind's combat doesn't take 10 minutes per encounter. It's over very quickly if you know what you're doing.

NWN's is always a tedious slog unless you run CheatEngine with x3 speed hack (even x2 is still too slow lol).
 

Levenmouth

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That's it, luj1. I can overlook the Vatnik bit, but putting a shit emoji next to Gothic, a.k.a. best RPG to have ever graced humanity, is a step too far.
I'm hunting you, buddy, and when I find you,
I will delete your save files.
 

MerchantKing

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But as is, their actual fun factor never manages to surpass a meager 4/10. That's how horrendously NWN plays. It manages to drag down absolute masterpiece 10/10 content like the Swordflight series to the gutter.

That is like saying Morrowind is 10/10 but the engine drags it down to 4/10

That is bullshit. Games are either good, or they aren't

Swordflight is 10/10 and is better than 90% of CRPGs since Kickstarter
Morrowind isn't a 10/10. Neither is Swordflight. Swordflight is a 6/10 at best.
 

anvi

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d9e391d0-473d-4b87-9cb1-68f52352d14e_screenshot.jpg
 

Gargaune

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In NWN you can also fail your lockpick attempts, but instead of a half second animation of pushing your hand forward and twisting the pick, it takes SIX seconds for every attempt.
Of course it takes six fucking seconds, Open Lock is "a full-round action", and RTwP gives you a real time rendition of that round. It doesn't work the same way as it does in Baldur's Gate because, while in that game multiplayer was just an extra feature, in NWN it was one of the core pillars for design and players being able to open containers with a click and then scurry away would be a departure from the ruleset economy.

The reason that Open Lock and Disable Device formed a painful memory for some people isn't even the fact that they take a real time round to execute, but the shoddy level design of the OC which left a poor first impression. Room after room lined with multiple chests, all locked and trapped, taking at least twelve seconds to open up and loot some generic, RNG-spawned crap. But the expansions and PMs that followed didn't have this problem, they placed more meaningful loot in fewer containers, mindful of the challenge and process of getting at it.

What you lot keep obstinately ignoring is what NWN was meant to be, not just a singleplayer cRPG but also "internet D&D on your computer", meaning online multiplayer and DM support, both in said multiplayer and in the form of module-building. It's a complete package to that end, influencing significant aspects of its design. Even RTwP plays a role in this - while it's less tactical and ruleset-accurate than TB and undoubtedly a big part of the choice was BioWare's recent experience with it, it does also present major advantages in online play with potentially distinct parties or just the practical reality of co-op with randos you picked up in a multiplayer lobby. The only legitimate capital criticism of BioWare's overall design is the lack of direct henchmen control, a decision that was also informed by co-op focus, but the wrong one, and Beamdog haven't gone far enough to remedy it either.

But most everything else has good reason to be the way it is, the downsides being legitimate tradeoffs rather than failures, and at the end of the day, you're bitching that a Porsche 911 is a terrible motorcycle.

Maybe if someone made a proper full party control mod for NWN, Swordflight could be fun to play.
Multiple points here, even though I might be wasting my time:

1) There is such a mod offering a scripted solution that lets you direct henchmen via point-and-click, Balkoth's Minion Control, and a further iteration on it, Companion Control System by ShadowM. You can't switch your currently-controlled character, but you can direct either one or all of your companions to move somewhere, attack something or someone, deal with a specific trap, pick up an item, unlock or open a door or activate an object. The latter comes in the form of a demo module you can try for yourself, but here's a video:



These are not overrides, however, they're supplied as builder's resources and have to be integrated into a module. Balkoth mentioned maybe making an override version, but he never did. It could be hit or miss depending on what script sets a given module's henchmen use and there is reasonable argument that some of the more advanced features could break modules that weren't designed for 'em, such as if you have a henchman activate a lever that's scripted to do a thing on the assumption that only a PC will ever activate it.


2) Swordflight already has Balkoth's Minion Control integrated (since Chapter 2 if I recall?) in the form of the Bugle of Command, but RK decided to make it consume your action via item activation for balance purposes. Personally, I disagree with the rationale on this one, I think ordering your henchman to "kill that thing" should be a free action, just like the default "attack nearest" is, but it's his module to balance.


3) Aside from these scripted mods, Beamdog's developed an engine-level solution in the EE. It doesn't do any of the fancy stuff, just move here and attack that, but it works on everything from the OC to Swordflight and should be safe on any properly-scripted module. The downside is that it's not fully UI integrated, gotta use key modifiers (and should issue a Stand Your Ground before you send your henchmen somewhere, or they'll come back) and you have to enable it manually in the config file:

- open settings.tml in /Documents/Neverwinter Nights/ and set player-party-control=true
- in-game hold CTRL and click a henchman or portrait or drag marquee to select
- hold SHIFT and click where you want them to move or what to attack
 

Daemongar

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Morrowind was better. I liked the main quest being highly creative, and the countless side quests that for the most part, you are free to ignore. NWN would be better regarded if it succeeded in its vision, instead of the buggy launch we got.

What makes Morrowind is the Ultima IV effect. Ultima IV may be regarded as a groundbreaking game, but near impossible for newfags to play or finish it. People need quest compasses, better journals, a lot faster walking speed, rapid mana regen, and an XP reward for giving Fargoth his ring back. They don't want to plan their leveling to get +5 to 3 skills. Nobody wants to be burdened with minutia for the sake of the game, or to have to plan ahead.

NWN was good for what it was attempting to do - allow for a real-time DM and a party of actual players to participate. At least that is how it was marketed at the gaming conventions. The main story gets shit on a lot as, I am not sure that the main story/single player was the primary focus of NWN. My favorite part of NWN was actually playing on servers with other folks. The worst part was playing the actual story - I finished it but I can barely remember the story.
 

MerchantKing

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In NWN you can also fail your lockpick attempts, but instead of a half second animation of pushing your hand forward and twisting the pick, it takes SIX seconds for every attempt.
Of course it takes six fucking seconds, Open Lock is "a full-round action", and RTwP gives you a real time rendition of that round. It doesn't work the same way as it does in Baldur's Gate because, while in that game multiplayer was just an extra feature, in NWN it was one of the core pillars for design and players being able to open containers with a click and then scurry away would be a departure from the ruleset economy.
The day/night cycle lasts only 48 minutes rather than a full 24 hours and one in-game hour is only 2 minutes but the round timer has to be exactly 6 seconds? So my one-hour/level spells only last about 20 rounds/level instead of the 600 rounds/level as intended in the core rules because they based the hour/level on the in-game time scale instead of real time but you have to wait through the full 6 seconds in real time to perform an out-of-combat action because this is the one thing that was arbitrarily chosen to adhere to the time-scale in the core rules exactly when other things are arbitrarily set to different time scales?

This applies to all the infinity engine games because they all do retarded shit like this with the time scales yet still force you into the same 6 second turn timer arbitrarily. Lots of dogshit design choices on Bioware's part.
The reason that Open Lock and Disable Device formed a painful memory for some people isn't even the fact that they take a real time round to execute, but the shoddy level design of the OC which left a poor first impression. Room after room lined with multiple chests, all locked and trapped, taking at least twelve seconds to open up and loot some generic, RNG-spawned crap. But the expansions and PMs that followed didn't have this problem, they placed more meaningful loot in fewer containers, mindful of the challenge and process of getting at it.
It's still shit in custom modules.
What you lot keep obstinately ignoring is what NWN was meant to be, not just a singleplayer cRPG but also "internet D&D on your computer", meaning online multiplayer and DM support, both in said multiplayer and in the form of module-building. It's a complete package to that end, influencing significant aspects of its design. Even RTwP plays a role in this - while it's less tactical and ruleset-accurate than TB and undoubtedly a big part of the choice was BioWare's recent experience with it, it does also present major advantages in online play with potentially distinct parties or just the practical reality of co-op with randos you picked up in a multiplayer lobby. The only legitimate capital criticism of BioWare's overall design is the lack of direct henchmen control, a decision that was also informed by co-op focus, but the wrong one, and Beamdog haven't gone far enough to remedy it either.

But most everything else has good reason to be the way it is, the downsides being legitimate tradeoffs rather than failures, and at the end of the day, you're bitching that a Porsche 911 is a terrible motorcycle.
It's more like complaining that you were given a horse carriage and mule to race with in a stock car race.
 

Gargaune

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but you have to wait through the full 6 seconds in real time to perform an out-of-combat action
And what if it's in combat? You know NWN implements out-of-combat Take 20, there's a reason for that. And what if combat hasn't started and you've got an opposing party waiting to pounce? Or what if a low level co-op party decides "we'll hold off the monsters while the rogue loots their treasure and then we run?"

Again, you still don't get it, NWN was designed to accommodate player-made modules and online multiplayer (and not just co-op with everyone in the same party), DMs have wide abstract liberty to design and execute D&D-based adventures as they see fit, so not fucking with the round-to-round action economy is important. Yes, more important than individual long-term spell durations.
 
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MerchantKing

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but you have to wait through the full 6 seconds in real time to perform an out-of-combat action
And what if it's in combat? You know NWN implements out-of-combat Take 20, there's a reason for that. And what if combat hasn't started and you've got an opposing party waiting to pounce? Or what if a low level co-op party decides "we'll hold off the monsters while the rogue loots their treasure and then we run?"
What if? ToEE also did take 20. Yet ToEE doesn't waste time outside of combat by requiring 6 seconds to complete an action.
Again, you still don't get it, NWN was designed to accommodate player-made modules and online multiplayer (and not just co-op with everyone in the same party), DMs have wide abstract liberty to design and execute D&D-based adventures as they see fit, so not fucking with the round-to-round action economy is important.
They could have made the rounds all last 2 or 3 seconds and no one would have complained. The 6 seconds is supposed to be an in-world time scale. It's not something that's supposed to be in real time. There's zero reason that the rounds in game have to take exactly 6 real world seconds. Considering the timescale in game however, since 1 minute = 2 seconds given that 1 hour is represented by 2 minutes, this means that rounds should be exactly 1/30 a second in length.
player-made modules
And if they're single player modules, they're made worse by the tedium.
Yes, more important than individual long-term spell durations.
Long-term spell durations are part of the round-to-round action economy. And yet they arbitrarily chose to change one part of the action economy and didn't change another part? In table top, you don't have to worry about your 600 round/level spell fading in 20 rounds. That's a significant change to the action economy.

This is all of course ignoring things like the garbage wheel menu, the janky terrible character controls, the fact that they make the character dance around the map during combat (walking into traps), and arbitrary class number limits for character building. Did I forget to mention that Bioware required stealth and proper character alignment for a backstab in BG1+2 while getting npc rogues to behave in a way that takes advantage of that ability in some cases yet didn't properly implement the flanking rule for sneak attack in NWN or how they changed the shield spell from a cover bonus to a deflection bonus? Lots of bad design and arbitrary rules for something that's supposed to using the core rules.
 

ind33d

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Controllers are such clunky pieces of shit that even Dark Souls despite its trash-tier M&KB responsiveness plays better on M&KB.
I just completed a playthrough of Demon's Souls (2009) on PC, at first using mouse & keyboard, but I switched to a PS3 controller after completing the first level because the M&KB controls were so janky that they almost caused me to die a few times. With a PS3 controller, I was able to complete the rest of the game without dying once (I've beaten it three times on the PS3 itself, which helps, though the last occasion would be 7 or 8 years ago).
that just means you have more practice playing with a controller. a mouse will always be superior to a joystick because you have greater input control
that's actually not true. any game where the speed of your movement affects stealth like Splinter Cell benefits from joystick movement because you have more choices than regular walking and sprinting. this distinction would come up more but most games don't program immersive sim elements
 

Vic

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Controllers are such clunky pieces of shit that even Dark Souls despite its trash-tier M&KB responsiveness plays better on M&KB.
I just completed a playthrough of Demon's Souls (2009) on PC, at first using mouse & keyboard, but I switched to a PS3 controller after completing the first level because the M&KB controls were so janky that they almost caused me to die a few times. With a PS3 controller, I was able to complete the rest of the game without dying once (I've beaten it three times on the PS3 itself, which helps, though the last occasion would be 7 or 8 years ago).
that just means you have more practice playing with a controller. a mouse will always be superior to a joystick because you have greater input control
that's actually not true. any game where the speed of your movement affects stealth like Splinter Cell benefits from joystick movement because you have more choices than regular walking and sprinting. this distinction would come up more but most games don't program immersive sim elements
Do you really need more than 3 speeds? (Walk, walk slowly, sprint)
 

Gargaune

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What if? ToEE also did take 20. Yet ToEE doesn't waste time outside of combat by requiring 6 seconds to complete an action.
ToEE was (a superb, maybe the best) D&D-based videogame, but it wasn't "D&D on your computer." The reason I brought up Take 20 on Open Lock is because it won't typically apply in your official singleplayer modules. You're gonna kill the monsters or sneak past them, but you'll always get your free 20 roll. But it's implemented, because it's part of the ruleset and a DM/builder could come up with scenarios where it's relevant, the same way that Open Lock nailing you on the spot for a full round could be relevant, I gave you some hypotheticals to mull over.

This is what NWN was built for, the full range of D&D from your computer desk, there's only so many ways I can reformulate that for you. The fact of that matter is that NWN is one of the most prestigious D&D computer projects ever made, but clearly, even on the Codex it's a case of pearls before swine.

They could have made the rounds all last 2 or 3 seconds and no one would have complained.
Hah! You're a funny guy!

Long-term spell durations are part of the round-to-round action economy.
No, spells that last 1 hour/level are not part of the round-to-round action economy, they're relevant for strategic resource management in the rest cycle, not the immediate tactics of an individual combat encounter.

Oh, and on a side note, the timescales are customisable per module.

This is all of course ignoring things like the garbage wheel menu

:nocountryforshitposters:

Stopped reading there.
 

Levenmouth

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Controllers are such clunky pieces of shit that even Dark Souls despite its trash-tier M&KB responsiveness plays better on M&KB.
I just completed a playthrough of Demon's Souls (2009) on PC, at first using mouse & keyboard, but I switched to a PS3 controller after completing the first level because the M&KB controls were so janky that they almost caused me to die a few times. With a PS3 controller, I was able to complete the rest of the game without dying once (I've beaten it three times on the PS3 itself, which helps, though the last occasion would be 7 or 8 years ago).
that just means you have more practice playing with a controller. a mouse will always be superior to a joystick because you have greater input control
that's actually not true. any game where the speed of your movement affects stealth like Splinter Cell benefits from joystick movement because you have more choices than regular walking and sprinting. this distinction would come up more but most games don't program immersive sim elements
PC Splinter Cell had pretty good variable speed controls by using the mouse wheel as cruise control. I think racing games are a better example. They absolutely suck balls on KBM.

Completely agree that having 6 variable inputs (x/y-axes for sticks, 2 triggers) is in some cases better than 2 though (x/y for mouse).
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Playing D&D over Discord or other chat systems is way more fun than playing it through the horribly slow and tedious NWN.

I played my first online D&D session in the mid-00s with a freeware chat with integrated character sheets and dice rollers, so the option was available. Much more fun than NWN!
 

MerchantKing

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What if? ToEE also did take 20. Yet ToEE doesn't waste time outside of combat by requiring 6 seconds to complete an action.
ToEE was (a superb, maybe the best) D&D-based videogame, but it wasn't "D&D on your computer." The reason I brought up Take 20 on Open Lock is because it won't typically apply in your official singleplayer modules. You're gonna kill the monsters or sneak past them, but you'll always get your free 20 roll. But it's implemented, because it's part of the ruleset and a DM/builder could come up with scenarios where it's relevant, the same way that Open Lock nailing you on the spot for a full round could be relevant, I gave you some hypotheticals to mull over.
You've only resorted to whataboutism.
This is what NWN was built for, the full range of D&D from your computer desk, there's only so many ways I can reformulate that for you. The fact of that matter is that NWN is one of the most prestigious D&D computer projects ever made, but clearly, even on the Codex it's a case of pearls before swine.
The ruleset for 2e is the pearls. 3e, Bioware, Wotc, and NWN are the swine.
They could have made the rounds all last 2 or 3 seconds and no one would have complained.
Hah! You're a funny guy!
You're right. I would've complained about that too.
Long-term spell durations are part of the round-to-round action economy.

No, spells that last 1 hour/level are not part of the round-to-round action economy, they're relevant for strategic resource management in the rest cycle, not the immediate tactics of an individual combat encounter.
No. They are relevant to the action economy. If a 1 hour spell for a level one character runs out in 20 rounds, then you'll have to recast it in 20 rounds. Whereas in tabletop within the standard round times, you shouldn't have to worry about that until 600 rounds later. If there is a situation where you have to choose either to do an attack, move, recast a buff, etc. fairly regularly, then it is part of the action economy. Within the NWN timescale, the 20 rounds instead of 600 rounds makes it a much more significant portion of the action economy since it will run out within a few encounters instead of just after you clear a dungeon. It does significantly affect the action economy.
Oh, and on a side note, the timescales are customisable per module.
Except many modules, especially the big ones, this isn't the case. Many tend to use the same timescales. At the same time, bringing up custom modules isn't a argument. Everything about gameplay in general is preserved across modules. The only thing different is that the area design or module design may be different depending on which one you look at. All the features that make the gameplay nothing but tedium are still present. The only thing a module maker can do is try to reduce the amount of time the player can interact with the tedium. They cannot suddenly make a better game.
This is all of course ignoring things like the garbage wheel menu

:nocountryforshitposters:

Stopped reading there.
Wheel menus were always garbage. It was garbage in ToEE and it's garbage in NWN too. It's garbage in any other game you can find a wheel menu.
 

Levenmouth

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> NWN sucks
> no u

images
Honestly, it seems like it should be fun, but it just somehow isn’t. I’ve beaten Act 1 like five times or so now trying to give the game another go, but then I just drop off once Act 2 starts. Can’t be the only one.
 

Vic

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> NWN sucks
> no u

images
Honestly, it seems like it should be fun, but it just somehow isn’t. I’ve beaten Act 1 like five times or so now trying to give the game another go, but then I just drop off once Act 2 starts. Can’t be the only one.
OC is boring, trying playing the other modules.
 

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