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Morrowind was massive decline and should be considered as such

Discussion in 'Bethesda Game Studios' started by George Duroy, May 9, 2020.

  1. Grauken Incorrigible Mapmaker Patron

    Grauken
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    God's random world generation algorithm looks so much better and unique than anything in Arena and Daggerfall, all those cities and buildings feel almost hand-crafted, though the amount of NPCs is the same
     
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  2. Gangrelrumbler Arcane Patron

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  3. mondblut Arcane

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    And he finished it in mere 7 days. Why won't Bethesda hire him?
     
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  4. Citizen Arcane

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  5. mondblut Arcane

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    You are not on the twatter of some blue checkmark and we ain't gonna harass your employer into firing you. Here on the Codex, we apologize to no one.
     
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  6. pomenitul Savant

    pomenitul
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    I'm confident that 99% of what makes Daggerfall a good game is best experienced through second-hand accounts, e.g. by reading about it. I'd rather keep it that way.
     
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  7. mondblut Arcane

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    It is best experienced by being there, in 1996. Newfags cannot understand.

    We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave… So now, less than twenty five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Wayrest and look East, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
     
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  8. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    That both true and missing the entire point.
     
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  9. pomenitul Savant

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    It's hard for me to reactivate the state of mind I was in as a wee gamer back in 1996 (my cut-off point for vintage CRPGs is 1998, give or take a couple of exceptions). Through hypnosis and/or premature senility I may eventually get there regardless, and I mean this in the best possible way.
     
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  10. Lemming42 Arcane

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    It's best experienced by playing it because it's actually a really good game. There is a learning curve, but after a few hours you stop seeing it as a curious novelty and start seeing it as a real game in its own right, and it's the best TES game in my opinion. It's worth giving it a fair try at least. Plus it's never been more accessible, now that Daggerfall Unity is out.

    Also, I don't agree with the commonly expressed view that Daggerfall is a collection of nice ideas that don't coalesce into a game. The game is complete, and is a solid game. Sure, it shows the promise of being capable of much more, but name me a game that doesn't - especially with RPGs. I don't buy the argument about most of the skills being useless, either - the language skills aren't as useless as people think. Fallout has about as many useless (or very limited use) skills, with the likes of gambling, outdoorsman, doctor (come on, it's useless) and so on.
     
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  11. zwanzig_zwoelf Graverobber Foundation Developer

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    Daggerfall had a team of a few dozen people and about 2 years to make a game (from scratch) that would make a modern AAA studio with hundreds of employees work their asses off for 5+ years (even if they had an engine available to them), and of course, the team had to cut corners to deliver the game -- IIRC Bethesda almost went under while making it, which was an additional factor behind the initial release. In reality, it's a good game, albeit somewhat repetitive and samey in the long run -- it's much more interesting to come up with crazy characters and see if they survive the first dungeon and a couple of quests than playing the same character for dozens of hours. If they kept the scope but gave the next game more time and $$$, they might've improved upon it, but good luck trying that in the late 90's.

    Battlespire felt like a step in the right direction in terms of handcrafted content, but its short development time, poor performance, and crash-prone nature undermined its good sides -- it was a very good game despite having a smaller scope.

    Don't care much for Redguard and Morrowind when Tomb Raider and Gothic feel like better games.
     
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  12. Grampy_Bone Arcane

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    Even if you're a huge Morrowind fan you have to admit the game was dumbed down for consoles. Daggerfall had very lofty goals and while it failed to execute them completely Morrowind didn't even bother to try. If Julian LeFay had been given the tools and budget to keep working on his style of game instead of Todd Howard, Skyrim might be a masterpiece today instead of a meme. I think that qualifies as 'decline.'
     
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  13. Serus Arcane

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    True but we don't know where we would be if major studios would use their resources for the past 25 years to work on serious procedural generation. The point is no one (with some talent and ambitions, that is) works or worked on random world generations. There is more work made in some small indies or games like Dwarf Fortress than in the mainstream. We simply do not know what can be really done with procedural generation. And we might not know because no one continued the work of Daggerfall creators.
    :negative:
     
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  14. George Duroy Scholar

    George Duroy
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    :salute:
    Some of the members on codex misunderstood my point because of the clickbaiting title, my point was:
    Morrowind is a good game obviously , better than Daggerfall, it's universally admit by everyone, i'm not trying to shit on morrowind because it's an excellent game , that wasn't my goal.
    I'm trying to say with this thread that Morrowind lost the Design philosophy of what makes An Elder scrolls game, well, an elder scrolls game. Morrowind transformed The elder Scrolls into Ultima but in 1rst /3rd person instead of Isometric. This isn't the elder scrolls, this is an other franchise that Morrowind set up from the ground. And thus, The elder scrolls franchise become something else of what it was really. Oblivion was the one step further into turning The Elder Scrolls into a banal RPG clone that morrowind started .
     
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  15. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    I'm not sure that procedural generation is necessarily the most salient feature of what we're talking about. The scale of Daggerfall wasn't just about physical space (i.e. city size) but also design space. Even there, the assumption that such physical scale requires procedural generation remains untested. The OED of cRPGs has yet to be made.
     
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  16. Stella_Brando Arcane

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    Wayrest? You can't stop there, it's cliff racer country.
     
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  17. lukaszek the determinator

    lukaszek
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    clickbaits
    apologising
    mood swings
    and yet... algorithms dont like

     
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  18. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Turing Test: passed
     
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  19. the mole Educated Shitposter

    the mole
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    So are you saying he's trans

    A femboy daggerfall proselytizer
     
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  20. Lemming42 Arcane

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    Femboys aren't trans, for FUCK'S sake. This kind of shit is why you've ended up with the shitposter tag.
     
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  21. the mole Educated Shitposter

    the mole
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    Which one is he supposed to be

    67 percent male brain yet 33 percent female

    Maybe he has a girl dick
     
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  22. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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  23. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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  24. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

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    I mean, yeah, okay, I can agree with you somewhat when you put it like that, but your original post was praising Daggerfall for features that were half-baked while dissing Morrowind for things it actually did better.

    Morrowind was my first Elder Scrolls game, I played Daggerfall after it. I enjoy both but like Morrowind's approach better cause I'm a sucker for hand-crafted worlds and have gotten tired of procedural generation over the years, but I still like Daggerfall, it's a decent game with some top tier features (its character creation is still unsurpassed). It's obvious that the two games have a vastly different design philosophy behind them.

    As popular as open world games are today, the whole "world simulation" approach of Daggerfall has never been attempted since.
     
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  25. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    With the same level of detail as Morrowind, no we don't have even a handful of RPG series.
    But we do have shitloads of RPG's with filler content.
     
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