Path of Exile is a MAJESTIC incline

[Theodora]

They've actually succeeded in pissing both groups off in this update which is quite amusing.

As someone looking to get into the game, it's very confusing to have friends complain to me that GGG are compromising on their vision, while I can read others complain it's becoming more hardcore. Are both somehow true, or what's the deal?

If pushed I guess I'd say that I vaguely relate to the former demographic more, because I like the challenge of learning new systems, but people tend to also confuse accessibility with making things casual (as opposed to making it as straightforward as possible to learn, regardless of the actual contents of those systems); which leads to people romanticising obtuse bullshit because they already put in the insane amount of time to understand it despite. Is that what this is about?

 

[Tacgnol]

They've actually succeeded in pissing both groups off in this update which is quite amusing.

As someone looking to get into the game, it's very confusing to have friends complain to me that GGG are compromising on their vision, while I can read others complain it's becoming more hardcore. Are both somehow true, or what's the deal?

If pushed I guess I'd say that I vaguely relate to the former demographic more, because I like the challenge of learning new systems, but people tend to also confuse accessibility with making things casual (as opposed to making it as straightforward as possible to learn, regardless of the actual contents of those systems); which leads to people romanticising obtuse bullshit because they already put in the insane amount of time to understand it despite. Is that what this is about?

They want to make the game slower to play, which is a noble goal, but the way they are going about it is all over the place.

The new rare system for example (Shown in January and made core in the previous league) is actually making the game even more bullshit in terms of one shots and visual chaos. This forces people into even more bullshit zoom zoom builds because extra defences can never compensate for the new power that enemies get.

To make things worse, this league they've nerfed item drops across the board so actually being able to play a decent build is much harder.

It's also creating a cancerous situation where certain lottery win mobs drop insane amounts of currency under the new rare system, so players are hiring MF cullers via the trade discord (players with instant kills below 10/20% life on mobs and tons of magic rarity gear) who kill the mob for you and double or triple your loot if you win the lottery and get one of these mobs to spawn.

 

[Ba'al]

They've actually succeeded in pissing both groups off in this update which is quite amusing.

As someone looking to get into the game, it's very confusing to have friends complain to me that GGG are compromising on their vision, while I can read others complain it's becoming more hardcore. Are both somehow true, or what's the deal?

If pushed I guess I'd say that I vaguely relate to the former demographic more, because I like the challenge of learning new systems, but people tend to also confuse accessibility with making things casual (as opposed to making it as straightforward as possible to learn, regardless of the actual contents of those systems); which leads to people romanticising obtuse bullshit because they already put in the insane amount of time to understand it despite. Is that what this is about?

Like Tacgnol said, they're trying to slow down the game by making good items take a longer time to get (not harder, just more grind) and introducing more bullshit modifiers to monsters with the intent of making gameplay more dynamic, but ultimately just making it more of a chore to clear maps. Path of Exile and accessibility do not belong together in the same sentence - its mechanics are notoriously obtuse and basically require you to find information outside of the game. Pretty much everyone agrees that the game needs more explanation, not less. I've been learning as I play, having 500 hours played I still do not understand a bunch of things (since the game has a lot of content you can easily ignore some of it and not learn about it like I have).

 

[Jaedar]

If pushed I guess I'd say that I vaguely relate to the former demographic more, because I like the challenge of learning new systems, but people tend to also confuse accessibility with making things casual (as opposed to making it as straightforward as possible to learn, regardless of the actual contents of those systems); which leads to people romanticising obtuse bullshit because they already put in the insane amount of time to understand it despite. Is that what this is about?

In path of exile, it is EXTREMELY important to keep the following separate: "more fire damage", "increased fire damage", "enemies take increased fire damage", "increased fire damage over time multiplier".
Because three of them stack really poorly with high values, but great with eachother and one of them stacks excellently with itself and everything else. And little of this is explicitly stated in the game iirc.

And then you add to this that fire is also elemental damage, spell OR attack damage and possibly also being sourced from other damage types via conversion...

Basically, this is a game where you need to run a separate client to make your build, and even with that excellent tool making builds is too much for most players.

It's still fun to play PoE, but it's probably not the best of time to get into it.

 

[Theodora]

Basically, this is a game where you need to run a separate client to make your build, and even with that excellent tool making builds is too much for most players.

Comparing with netdecking in card games (e.g. MTG, Hearthstone), I kinda suspect the minmax'ers end up warping the game and deterring a lot of people from bothering to try their hand at making their own builds.

They want to make the game slower to play, which is a noble goal, but the way they are going about it is all over the place.

Thanks for the explanation! In that case I'll trust you to tell me when it's a better time to dive in. ^^

 

[PapaPetro]

Comparing with netdecking in card games (e.g. MTG, Hearthstone), I kinda suspect the minmax'ers end up warping the gam and deterring a lot of people from bothering to try their hand at making their own builds.

Yeah pretty much. These minmaxxed builds are known as the meta builds that can tackle the games content comfortably. If you attempt to do an on off-hand "hipster" build, you'll most likely end up frustrated hitting a wall.

 

[Kjaska]

#1 chief reason for veterans crying is the nerf to player power. They'll try to blame it on the "vision" or whatever, but in the end it's the same as with the 3.15 patch where something similar had happened. Many vets grew accustomed to roflstomping the entire end game of PoE after just 3 days of gearing and now it takes like a week+. That's basically it. There are some other issues, but they are nowhere near as impactful as people claim. This league had multiple unique circumstances converge to create a mass hysteria inside the community:
- main Community Manager was absent for the first two weeks of the league
- previous league had no balance changes, so people expected double the balance changes for this league, but we only got the regular amount
- big player power nerf
- during the first week a prominent player posted results to from his "juicing" strat and people took it as proof that all loot has been nerfed (despite said prominent player employing a strategy most players never experience)
- many streamers voiced their negative opinions with the league for the first time (most streamers tend to shill and preach adaptation over whining)
- previous league was an in-map league with ginormous rewards
- this league's theme is centered around an iconic character who is tied to the most valuable currency item in the game
- this league's mechanic wasn't very rewarding and it's unique mechanic spawns too rarely
- another sub-optimal iteration of the Archnemesis system, which people already disliked

all of this doesn't apply to new players. I have two friends who are very new and picked up the game this league, got to maps and both of them never complained about any of these aspects. If you're looking to get into PoE now, there is absolutely no reason not to. Most of the impact is felt at the veteran side, as that is where the nerfs hit the hardest.

 

[Gerrard]

I kinda suspect the minmax'ers end up warping the game and deterring a lot of people from bothering to try their hand at making their own builds.

The game/devs themselves do that, not minmaxers.

 

[Deflowerer]

Comparing with netdecking in card games (e.g. MTG, Hearthstone), I kinda suspect the minmax'ers end up warping the gam and deterring a lot of people from bothering to try their hand at making their own builds.

Yeah pretty much. These minmaxxed builds are known as the meta builds that can tackle the games content comfortably. If you attempt to do an on off-hand "hipster" build, you'll most likely end up frustrated hitting a wall.

It's not really a competitive game (for people who are not peak autists) though nor does it even mechanically feel very fun, so there's less fun to be had in just aping meta builds anyway.

 

[PapaPetro]

The game/devs themselves do that, not minmaxers.

It was the dev's reaction to the Path of Building software being adopted by the community and solving the build metagame too quickly. The dev's "solution" was to tightly control build power through sweeping nerfs (skills, gear, passives) and selecting only a handful of predetermined build archetypes each league to become the forced meta (i.e. approved way to play their game). This became increasingly obvious to the playerbase as it became increasingly cost prohibitive to attempt viable non-meta builds.

 

[Reever]

kinda suspect the minmax'ers end up warping the game and deterring a lot of people from bothering to try their hand at making their own builds.

It's more that the devs need to keep up with the constant power creep present in the game which severely impacts build variety, in my opinion. Also their ways of reducing said power creep is questionable at times.

all of this doesn't apply to new players.

Archnemesis does as it impacts most facets of the game, but otherwise I do agree that it's probably as good a time as any to start playing outside of waiting for a more interesting league mechanic or PoE 2

 

[somerandomdude]

In Path of Exile, there's the meta of metas that doesn't factor in cost/resources to build, and then there's also budget metas, doing the best you can with a low to moderate amount of resources. I tend to favor the later when I played. Because I knew for a fact I was never going to get the gear to make the real metas, so I didn't bother even attempting to chase those items, it wasn't even on my radar. But occasionally I got lucky and found some of them anyway. So, where the state of the game is as far as budget metas are concerned is more important to me than actual metas. I still consider something like 8-10c per slot on average a "budget build". Something realistically attainable for anyone. I've gotten to level 98 on characters who had 8-10c per slot, or less. Necromancer/Summoner builds are pretty tried and true tested, it's also a way to deal with the massive damage spikes, because you shouldn't ever be in proximity to the enemies, you got tons of options for kiting, repositioning, cowering behind choke points, and you don't lose any DPS at all when you're moving around, or aren't directly in the action. Summoner builds can also run some really shitty map mods that a lot of other builds wouldn't touch with a 10ft pole, so alching maps and just rolling whatever it tosses your way is possible.

 

[Gerrard]

The reason behind the Exalt & Divine change was most likely the fact that the algorithm behind the timeless jewels was figured out, something that was obfuscated on purpose and could not be determined by simple datamining of the game files. The change itself made good timeless jewels even less accessible than they already were, while also fucking all the people who spent money on exalt divination cards.
The devs on PoE are some of the most petty people in gamedev.

 

[Kjaska]

It was the dev's reaction to the Path of Building software being adopted by the community and solving the build metagame too quickly. The dev's "solution" was to tightly control build power through sweeping nerfs (skills, gear, passives) and selecting only a handful of predetermined build archetypes each league to become the forced meta (i.e. approved way to play their game). This became increasingly obvious to the playerbase as it became increasingly cost prohibitive to attempt viable non-meta builds.

What was the forced archetype this league? This is some industrial strength reddit tinfoil you got there. And it's outdated too.

"forced meta" is a term reddit used to throw around any time GGG would successfully rework an under-performing archetype and a large percentage of the community would play it. You know, because it was new and exciting. Eventually the whining got so obnoxious, that GGG stopped being generous with their balancing. The last big rework of this sort was in 3.9. Almost 3 years ago.

I've gotten to level 98 on characters who had 8-10c per slot, or less. Necromancer/Summoner builds are pretty tried and true tested

I've got some bad news for you.

 

[PapaPetro]

The last big rework of this sort was in 3.9. Almost 3 years ago

Uh no, it was a year ago in 3.15 with the great support gem nerf which greatly affected the viability of certain skill gems/archetypes.
Another example is the summoner archetype nerfs this league which you seem to know about.
The meta is "forced" in the same way if you chop everyone else's legs off, then you become the tallest person standing.
You can technically make any archetype work if you throw enough mirrors at it.

 

[Kjaska]

LMAO. So, not only are you using reddit terminology, you're also it wrong. By your own retarded logic any type of balancing is "forcing a meta" then. Meta has been forced so hard this league, it's the same Ascendancies in the top 3.

 

[Alpan]

#1 chief reason for veterans crying is the nerf to player power. They'll try to blame it on the "vision" or whatever, but in the end it's the same as with the 3.15 patch where something similar had happened. Many vets grew accustomed to roflstomping the entire end game of PoE after just 3 days of gearing and now it takes like a week+. That's basically it. There are some other issues, but they are nowhere near as impactful as people claim. This league had multiple unique circumstances converge to create a mass hysteria inside the community:
(list)
all of this doesn't apply to new players. I have two friends who are very new and picked up the game this league, got to maps and both of them never complained about any of these aspects. If you're looking to get into PoE now, there is absolutely no reason not to. Most of the impact is felt at the veteran side, as that is where the nerfs hit the hardest.

I haven't played PoE this league but have been following the drama. IMO the one thing I would add to your list is that many impactful details regarding the changes made were either not communicated at all ("removed a massive item quantity historic bonus" with no mention of it in the patch notes or initial livestream, only after the community actually woke up to the fact) or communicated dishonestly ("removed a bunch of Harvest filler crafts" which conveniently turned out to be some of the most useful for high-end crafting).

It doesn't help that upcoming games like Last Epoch are showing that an ARPG that doesn't revolve around shitting on the player's face (in terms of power progression) can be a viable alternative. Live player count for LE has approximately tripled since the drama. Sure, it's 1k -> 3k, but the numbers are actually holding fairly steady.

With PoE and GGG their implicit attitude have always been that they are managing a bunch of addicts/petulant children rather than a playerbase (There are many interviews by Chris saying something to this effect). The kind of underhanded stuff that occurred this league and their uncompromising stance made this explicit, which contributed to the uproar.

Out of all the items in your list the Kalandra one bothers me the most. Kalandra and the mirror is such an iconic part of the game, and the reveal turned out to be extremely underwhelming and barebones. On one hand it's a clear sign that GGG is all-hands-on-deck for PoE 2 and understandable, on the other they probably could have picked a better thing to not deliver on.

 

[Kjaska]

With PoE and GGG their implicit attitude have always been that they are managing a bunch of addicts/petulant children rather than a playerbase (There are many interviews by Chris saying something to this effect). The kind of underhanded stuff that occurred this league made this explicit, which contributed to the uproar.

He wouldn't have admitted to the legacy quant/rarity nerf in the first place, if that was the case. Chris wouldn't be apologizing at all. Fuck, he wouldn't even show his face at all. Why expose yourself to these degens? Just hide in your corpo tower all day, just like all the other game execs do. If GGG wanted to be underhanded, they wouldn't have posted that manifesto, which was full of nerfs. This type of adversarial mindset comes from unchecked and unquestioned neuroticism within the community. It makes no sense to think this way and still continue to play the game.

Which one is more likely: Chris called them "filler crafts" because he wanted to trick the community or because Chris doesn't know that "reforge much more likely" was how we got most of our end game rares? I'm going with the latter, since Chris has proven time and time again that he is not up to snuff on end game strats.

Out of all the items in your list the Kalandra one bothers me the most. Kalandra and the mirror is such an iconic part of the game, and the reveal turned out to be extremely underwhelming and barebones. On one hand it's a clear sign that GGG is all-hands-on-deck for PoE 2 and understandable, on the other they probably could have picked a better thing to not deliver on.

Yeah, that one bothers me as well. I am still COPIUMing on the idea that this is not the real Kalandra, but just a shard of her personality left in the Lake by the real one as some sort of Horcrux or sentry. Otherwise it would make no sense to throw her under the bus like that.

 

[Ba'al]

Why indeed would they withhold certain information until later for a game that gets most of its revenue at the start of a new league? The apologizing is damage control, they've made their money for the league and now they're trying to win back some community favour so they can pull off the same thing next league.

 

[Kjaska]

Why indeed would they withhold certain information until later for a game that gets most of its revenue at the start of a new league?

So why post the nerf manifesto weeks in advance, you brainlet? Why disclose the historic quant/rarity nerf 3 days into the launch instead of letting the community try to figure it out for themselves in the coming weeks?

apologizing isn't expressing genuine regret over things, it's "damage control"
engaging with the community isn't trying to create a better game, it's "manipulating the customers"
balancing isn't trying to fix issues with the game, it's "anchoring" and "forcing a meta"

^ this is your brain on reddit.

If you actually think that GGG is this malicious, then why are you still playing the game? Are you retarded? Are you part of a captive audience and simply can't help yourself? Do you prefer to be in a bad situation as long as you can point to an "evil" authority and say "it's their fault" instead of just taking things into your own hands and leaving the situation? My guess is all of the above.

 

[Perkel]

yeah imho they shouldn't post any manifestos, just let people discover stuff as they play.

I would go further than that. I would introduce X factor to skill equation. So depending on player certain skills could go from -50% to +50% worse/better. That factor would be completely random based on account and reset each league start.

 

[Reever]

Why disclose the historic quant/rarity nerf 3 days into the launch instead of letting the community try to figure it out for themselves in the coming weeks?

Because the community already figured out that the loot was nerfed? Might as well come forward and tell everyone what happened instead of letting even more conspiracy theories sprout up.

 

[Jaedar]

yeah imho they shouldn't post any manifestos, just let people discover stuff as they play.

I would go further than that. I would introduce X factor to skill equation. So depending on player certain skills could go from -50% to +50% worse/better. That factor would be completely random based on account and reset each league start.

Thanks for reminding us what an actual shit-tier take looks like.

 

[abija]

Why indeed would they withhold certain information until later for a game that gets most of its revenue at the start of a new league?

So why post the nerf manifesto weeks in advance, you brainlet? Why disclose the historic quant/rarity nerf 3 days into the launch instead of letting the community try to figure it out for themselves in the coming weeks?

apologizing isn't expressing genuine regret over things, it's "damage control"
engaging with the community isn't trying to create a better game, it's "manipulating the customers"
balancing isn't trying to fix issues with the game, it's "anchoring" and "forcing a meta"

^ this is your brain on reddit.

If you actually think that GGG is this malicious, then why are you still playing the game? Are you retarded? Are you part of a captive audience and simply can't help yourself? Do you prefer to be in a bad situation as long as you can point to an "evil" authority and say "it's their fault" instead of just taking things into your own hands and leaving the situation? My guess is all of the above.

So admirable they disclosed 3 days into the launch a change reported less than 10 mins into the league by the standard players.

They're not malicious, damage control and manipulating the customers are standard operating practices for most firms because they are pretty much required. And they do work and everyone is happy as long as the devs behind don't go full retardo.

As for balancing, it's the typical cyclical shit started by mtg, copied by bliz and many other devs. It works very well (in keeping players interested and catering to different needs, not in ending up with a balanced game) but GGG just need to get better at throwing bones.

 

[Gerrard]

yeah imho they shouldn't post any manifestos, just let people discover stuff as they play.

I would go further than that. I would introduce X factor to skill equation. So depending on player certain skills could go from -50% to +50% worse/better. That factor would be completely random based on account and reset each league start.

Yeah, so you could have retards like Kjaska gaslight you by saying the problem is you and not the game until enough people actually confirm the game is fucked, something that LITERALLY happened with the loot nerf this league.