Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Cael]

isn't attacks per round determined by the character's BAB?

as for the crossbow loading action: that's why I asked, because crossbows don't seem to require loading in Kingmaker, making them same as bows in that regard.

EDIT: I re-read your post and now I understand! Sorry.

Crossbows: ALWAYS only 1 attack.

Bows: Attacks determined by BAB.

Yep. You can get a feat to reduce the loading times to free action (medium) or move action (heavy), which means that heavy cbows are always only 1 attack per round but the medium behaves like a normal bow.

That is, by the way, the main advantage of repeating cbows over normal ones: they have a magazine of 5 bolts, which allows you to do multiple attacks as per your BAB until the mag runs out. That feat basically screws up the medium repeater because you need an exotic weapon feat to use the repeater in the first place.

 

[Jarpie]

According to someone in discord, they fixed the quarterstaff working with flurry of blows, so looks like I'm starting over with the monk. Wasn't it recommended to multi-class with sorcerer?

 

[The Great Deceiver]

According to someone in discord, they fixed the quarterstaff working with flurry of blows, so looks like I'm starting over with the monk. Wasn't it recommended to multi-class with sorcerer?

I'm planning this build:

1 Vivisectionist/4 Thug/5 Two-handed Fighter/10 Scaled Fist

Lawful Neutral Human

17 STR
14 DEX
12 CON
13 INT
8 WIS
16 CHA

It's essentially a debuff specialist build (Dazzling Display, Debilitating Injury, Brutal Beating, Disarm, Trip, Sunder Armor, Shatter Defenses, Dreadful Carnage), but it also should deal more than respectable damage.

1 Scaled Fist: Monk Feat - Crane Style, Weapon Focus - Quarterstaff, Combat Experstise
2 Thug
3 Thug: Trip, Combat Trick: Dazzling Display
4 Thug: + 1 STR
5 Thug: Combat Trick: Power Attack, Bull Rush
6 Vivisectionist: True Strike, Shield, Cure Light Wounds, Enlarge Person
7 Two-handed Fighter: Outflank, Disarm
8 Two-handed Fighter: + 1 STR, Greater Bull Rush
9 Two-handed Fighter: Sunder Armor
10 Two-handed Fighter: Weapon Specalization - Quarterstaff
11 Two-handed Fighter: Shatter Defenses
12 Scaled Fist: + 1 STR, Monk Feat: Dodge
13 Scaled Fist: Draconic Heritage: Green
14 Scaled Fist: Ki Power: Barkskin
15 Scaled Fist: Style Strike : Leg Sweep, Dreadful Carnage
16 Scaled Fist: + 1 STR, Monk Feat: Intimidating Prowess, Ki Power: Sudden Speed
17 Scaled Fist: Crane Riposte
18 Scaled Fist: Ki Power: Restoration
19 Scaled Fist: Style Strike: Defensive Spin, Improved Critical - Quarterstaff
20 Scaled Fist: + 1 STR, Monk Feat: Combat Reflexes, Ki Power: Wholeness of the Body

Would appreciate feedback on it, as am not really an expert on Pathfinder.

Two levels of paladin would probably a good fit for this build, but I plan on doing a Lawful Good run later.

 

[Serus]

The Great Deceiver
Locking yourself into one type of not very popular weapon is not something I would do but that's probably just me. People mentioned that you can get good quarterstaffs from an artisan eventually but it can take a while. Overall, you'r probably be fine and it's just my autism speaking.
More importantly, isn't so many different maneuvers an overkill? Sunder Armour, Disarm, Bull Rush and what else... I doubt you will be able to make effective use of all this very often. I would take feats that would work to my advantage most of the time earlier instead (like dodge or intimidating prowess for better dazzling display).
And finally why no Cornugon Smash? You'd need Power Attack as well for that so 1 or 2 combat maneuvers need to go but if you are going for a Thug/debuffer (with high STR and intimidating prowess on top of that) than not taking it seems like a wasted opportunity.

Consider, I'm a noob as well so take what I said with a grain of salt.

 

[Andnjord]

Just for your information, you'll only finish the game at around lvl16-17, so you'll play the vast majority of the game without those monks levels. And I agree about the quarterstaff problem, you'll spend a loooot of time with nothing better than a simple +2 quarterstaff.

 

[Jarpie]

I played till Vordakai with +2 fire earth breaker and didn't have a problem, not sure +2 elemental quarterstaff is a problem either.

 

[Shadenuat]

The Feats are also wrong. You miss Crane Wing for Crane Riposte and you miss some extra feats from other classes.

 

[aweigh]

there's a mod on nexus which lets you put modifiers onto items and then spawn it into your inventory. just deduct the appropriate amount of gold pieces from your game and LARP that you bought it.

 

[The Great Deceiver]

The Great Deceiver
Locking yourself into one type of not very popular weapon is not something I would do but that's probably just me. People mentioned that you can get good quarterstaffs from an artisan eventually but it can take a while. Overall, you'r probably be fine and it's just my autism speaking.
More importantly, isn't so many different maneuvers an overkill? Sunder Armour, Disarm, Bull Rush and what else... I doubt you will be able to make effective use of all this very often. I would take feats that would work to my advantage most of the time earlier instead (like dodge or intimidating prowess for better dazzling display).
And finally why no Cornugon Smash? You'd need Power Attack as well for that so 1 or 2 combat maneuvers need to go but if you are going for a Thug/debuffer (with high STR and intimidating prowess on top of that) than not taking it seems like a wasted opportunity.

Consider, I'm a noob as well so take what I said with a grain of salt.

I like building characters based on a concept, imposing some limitations makes the whole process more fun for me I guess.

You're probably right about too many combat maneuvers, I should limit their number - Two-handed fighter gets Strong Grip (At 2nd level, a two-handed fighter gains a +1 bonus to CMB and CMD on sunder attempts and on disarm attempts. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd..) So it makes the most sense to take Sunder and Disarm only. Although to be fair, I'd need 6 levels of Fighter for it to be worth it I think. Although in that case I might as well take it to level 7 and gain Backswing (At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first.)

Might make more sense to focus on just two combat maneuvers, but get greater versions of them (in this case: Greater Sunder Armor and Greater Disarm) doesn't seem as good as Bull Rush and Trip counterparts. Both of these grant attacks of opportunity, which probably should synergize well with sneak attacks and Outflank. So it comes down to which two maneuvers are the best and most useful in the game. Going that route would also free some feat choices for me.

About Cornugon Smash, you think it's worth it with Dazzling Display, Dreadful Carnage and Brutal Beating already there?

 

[vazha]

Can't for hell remember a quarterstaff better than +2

There are some very nice quarterstaffs around, esp from artisans

 

[Shadenuat]

All I can say about maneuvers is that taking all these Feats to give enemy -2 to attack is totally worth it, 550%. Yes it provides -saves as well but even on Hard enemies do fall to correct saving throw targeting regardless. You'd have to make investments - about +40 should auto-intimidate endgame enemies.

And all I can say about Trip is that endgame enemies have 50 CMD. On Normal.

Shatter Defenses is a decent one, but a properly built and buffed combat character can hit 40-50 AR anyway which is enough to hit anything on basically any roll, and Flanking allows Sneak attacks anyway.

Tripper/Disarmer can be interesting for levels 1-12 play though. On Normal or below, since even 30 DEX auto-tripping enlarged Leopard can't do it on Hard and Unfair.

I haven't invested much time into maneuver characters though, so maybe you can go around all this, especially with pocket Transmuter for biggest baddest Enlarge spell later. Weapon Focus is also something you will have to figure out playing the game to find best items for leveling.

The biggest thing which will always be true is this though: melee character can't Trip 10 enemies at a time. And you might want to later. But you can't. So you just end up as a Fighter who tries to do Wizard's job (CC) and will always do it badly.

Personally I think best thing about Monk for this game would be option to get good Saves like Will (so you won't stare too much on fey titties like Nok-Nok does), high AC, possibly high Touch AC and immunities. Also Stunning Fist or whatsnot, I think it beats up things bad because Stun is a status enemies generally don't have any immunity to.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I don't know how often it's the case, but I noticed at least one enemy I tripped had +4AC from the prone condition rather than a penalty. In retrospect, maybe it gives that bonus vs ranged attacks? Either way it makes trip extra shitty. Also, the monster in question was a spider with a CMB of 16 vs trip, which was pretty fucking funny.

 

[Shadenuat]

Yeah, it's the basic rules. Prone gives +4AC against Ranged.

Spiders should get bonus against Trip as a creature with extra Legs. Don't know if it's in but considering how anal developers are about making monsters as strong as they should be (unlike fixing Player Feats hohoho) they probably do.

 

[The Great Deceiver]

All I can say about maneuvers is that taking all these Feats to give enemy -2 to attack is totally worth it, 550%.

And all I can say about Trip is that endgame enemies have 50 CMD. On Normal.

Shatter Defenses is a decent one, but a properly built and buffed combat character can hit 40-50 AR anyway which is enough to hit anything on basically any roll, and Flanking allows Sneak attacks anyway.

Tripper/Disarmer can be interesting for levels 1-12 play though. On Normal or below, since even 30 DEX auto-tripping enlarged Leopard can't do it on Hard and Unfair.

I haven't invested much time into maneuver characters though, so maybe you can go around all this, especially with pocket Transmuter for biggest baddest Enlarge spell later. Weapon Focus is also something you will have to figure out playing the game to find best items for leveling.

The biggest thing which will always be true is this though: melee character can't Trip 10 enemies at a time. And you might want to later. But you can't. So you just end up as a Fighter who tries to do Wizard's job (CC) and will always do it badly.

I'll make a new version of the build shortly. Perhaps instead of all these combat maneuvers I should instead focus more on debuffing abilities such as Blinding Critical, Staggering Critical etc. Although Quarterstaff isn't the best weapon for that.

 

[Shadenuat]

It also might be good idea to take 18 or take 20 on your main stat. You will never get 5th point so you'll just lag behind for whole game.

At least I do so. Your endgame stat would be 20+4(levels)+2(Bokken elixir if he's not broken again)+8(item). Possibly extra from crafted relics. Unless, of course, you have some other stats to even out.

Also unless you have some other plan for negating Concealment, I'd take at least 1 level of Blind Fight for anyone who needs to hit enemy.

 

[Chippy]

I played a Ranger as my first class with BG and it's always been a favourite love to hate class for me - because every game has designed it poorly. NWN2 wasn't too bad, and although this game probably has the best implementation of the class, I was just reading the Stormwalker archetype combat style and it seems Owlcat omitted the 'focused shot' feat. Its almost like there's a conspiracy to make this class suck in every RPG developers release.

 

[aweigh]

rangers always suck ass. Fighter-types always end up being better at ranged combat than the ranger-type, and the ranger-types other abilities, whatever they may be (usually spells or an animal companion) end up being completely useless by mid-game. The class itself just doens't translate well to the combat-heavy nature of a computer RPG.

 

[Shadenuat]

Rangers are pretty fine in this game. Just pick bonuses against Fey and kill. There are cool bows and even unique arrow item. They also have nice combination of Skills, shit like Lores and Perception.

And of course you get a pet.

 

[aweigh]

btw, been reading some ridiculous numbers regarding Knife Master builds on the steam forums...

Well you can go full insanity with monk1/vivi2/knife master17
but even pure knife master will pull ahead by a mile.

ok what weapons would be the best , kukris would work ? what are best rogue weapons in game? why 2 lvls of viv? What would be most important feats?
What we get from monk level if using kukris or should i use other weapons ?

And how to handle those solo fights?

for monk build sai so you get flurry of blows
for regular rogue just go with kukris

important feats
two weapon fighting, improved and greater
accomplished sneak attacker if you picked non rogue/vivi lvl
focus
opportunist
outflank and precise strike along with somebody else picking them.

But we are loosing dmg? as kukris have better?

Could someone explain to me what we get with like 4KM/16viv vs pure KM ? do we get more dmg or what?

majority of damage will come from sneak anyway

sai is 1d4 20/2
kukri is 1d4 18-20/x2

so you will have 30 instead of 10% chance of crits with that 1d4 + dex modifier + piranha strike if you use it.
no impact on sneaks whatsoever.
basically difference will be
80d8 + 8d4+dex+piranha 19-20/2 vs 70d8+7d4+dex+piranha 15-20/2

16 vivi have lvl5 spells(mostly similiar to bard ones) and grand mutagen(+8,+6,+4 to physical attributes, -2 to mental), +6 ac.
Remember that to cast lvl5 spells you need to have 15 int and mutagen gives -2 penatly so you need to effectively have headband of vast intelligence +6 and 11 int minimum.
16 km have, improved uncanny dodge so he cant be flanked, more martial feats since they didnt went into discoveries for the mutagens, -8ac or ab debuff on sneak attack.

4 last lvls add 6lvl spells to vivi and master strike to km.

2 lvl of vivi adds feral mutagen so when you drink your +4 buff to dex you also get extra bite attack which will use 10d4 sneak dice.
3 lvl of km will add free finesse, finesse training, d8 sneaks and evasion.

 

[aweigh]

killed man-eater troll and got to 3rd level, wee. i got lucky with the troll deciding to target valerie and rolling some misses, otherwise he managed to 1-hit kill harrim and amiri.

btw, i love the resting system SO MUCH. Ican't believe these russians finally fucking solved the rest spam issue. Something Roguey I mean JSawyer himself could not do!!

It was so simple really:

- make character status ailments, some of them at least, only be able to be cured via resting or hard-to-get items either because of game economy or because of drop rates and such.

- ...but then make resting dangerous! 2spooky4me

- Then give the player the ability to minimize that danger by using their characters' skills and by using items, and then lastly make said items both valuable AND integrate them into the itemization properly (made them heavy to carry).

Simple, elegant... beautifully done.

EDIT: lol, the simple fact alone that by giving items weight and then having camping supplies be heavy, with just doing that they completely eviscerated all of Sawyer's meandering philosophy on loot stashing in PoE.

 

[Lawntoilet]

killed man-eater troll and got to 3rd level, wee. i got lucky with the troll deciding to target valerie and rolling some misses, otherwise he managed to 1-hit kill harrim and amiri.

btw, i love the resting system SO MUCH. Ican't believe these russians finally fucking solved the rest spam issue. Something Roguey I mean JSawyer himself could not do!!

It was so simple really:

- make character status ailments, some of them at least, only be able to be cured via resting or hard-to-get items either because of game economy or because of drop rates and such.

- ...but then make resting dangerous! 2spooky4me

- Then give the player the ability to minimize that danger by using their characters' skills and by using items, and then lastly make said items both valuable AND integrate them into the itemization properly (made them heavy to carry).

Simple, elegant... beautifully done.

EDIT: lol, the simple fact alone that by giving items weight and then having camping supplies be heavy, with just doing that they completely eviscerated all of Sawyer's meandering philosophy on loot stashing in PoE.

All of that stuff, combined with time limits on quests, and introducing a random element to resting times (hunting). Every time I test I have to actually consider if I want to potentially waste an extra 12 hours hunting or risk my rations before getting to the dungeon. It's the best resting system I've ever seen.

 

[aweigh]

This ought to interest some peeps. Nexus mod that lets you toggle on/off the Quest Timer flag (reset it back to 0) on any current quest you have selected:

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderkingmaker/mods/29

Should be good for resetting the timer on quests you left incomplete?

 

[ArchAngel]

btw, been reading some ridiculous numbers regarding Knife Master builds on the steam forums...

Well you can go full insanity with monk1/vivi2/knife master17
but even pure knife master will pull ahead by a mile.

ok what weapons would be the best , kukris would work ? what are best rogue weapons in game? why 2 lvls of viv? What would be most important feats?
What we get from monk level if using kukris or should i use other weapons ?

And how to handle those solo fights?

for monk build sai so you get flurry of blows
for regular rogue just go with kukris

important feats
two weapon fighting, improved and greater
accomplished sneak attacker if you picked non rogue/vivi lvl
focus
opportunist
outflank and precise strike along with somebody else picking them.

But we are loosing dmg? as kukris have better?

Could someone explain to me what we get with like 4KM/16viv vs pure KM ? do we get more dmg or what?

majority of damage will come from sneak anyway

sai is 1d4 20/2
kukri is 1d4 18-20/x2

so you will have 30 instead of 10% chance of crits with that 1d4 + dex modifier + piranha strike if you use it.
no impact on sneaks whatsoever.
basically difference will be
80d8 + 8d4+dex+piranha 19-20/2 vs 70d8+7d4+dex+piranha 15-20/2

16 vivi have lvl5 spells(mostly similiar to bard ones) and grand mutagen(+8,+6,+4 to physical attributes, -2 to mental), +6 ac.
Remember that to cast lvl5 spells you need to have 15 int and mutagen gives -2 penatly so you need to effectively have headband of vast intelligence +6 and 11 int minimum.
16 km have, improved uncanny dodge so he cant be flanked, more martial feats since they didnt went into discoveries for the mutagens, -8ac or ab debuff on sneak attack.

4 last lvls add 6lvl spells to vivi and master strike to km.

2 lvl of vivi adds feral mutagen so when you drink your +4 buff to dex you also get extra bite attack which will use 10d4 sneak dice.
3 lvl of km will add free finesse, finesse training, d8 sneaks and evasion.

#1 mistake is using piranha strike. What kind of moron would rather get +8 to damage than a 20% more chance to do 9d8...
piranha strike is for duelists and dex melee fighters.

 

[Roguey]

Something Roguey I mean JSawyer himself could not do!!

JES could solve the problem with resting, but he was unwilling to do so because it requires the necessity of a strategic game over (unable to progress farther because of a series of poor decisions).

 

[aweigh]

...ay lol, i just now realized my STR 7 respec has me permanently encumbered. i forgot that even if the party isn't encumbered a single char CAN due to equipped gear.